Jan Tomaszewski | 1974-1975


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Jan Tomaszewski | 1974-1975

Postby PES Stats Database » 2008 Dec 10, 20:50

Club: ŁKS Łó


INFO:

Spoiler: show
He is most widely known due to his heroics against England in Wembley, a match in which he not only had his finger broken in the third minute of play by Allan Clarke but started a torrid affair with Lady luck that lasted through the night. But the Tomaszewski that starred in goal during the 1974 World Cup was a far more assured player, who had improved, if not in overall ability, then in self-belief. Becoming the first keeper to save two penalties in a World Cup.

Accumulated 59 caps for Poland, the most of any Polish goalkeeper, keeping 24 clean sheets. Holds the Polish team record of 411 minutes in which he did not concede a goal. Claimed silver in 1976 Olympics.


VIDEOS:




ADDITIONAL LINKS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Tomaszewski

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Tomaszewski

http://www.planetworldcup.com/LEGENDS/tomaszewski.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foot ... 10415.html

http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/sto ... aughs+last

http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/stati ... index.html

Last edited by Oriello on 2016 Dec 08, 19:58, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby Oriello » 2009 Feb 02, 02:03

list of changes

Stamina +2 -- brought to a the overall database average
removed penalties* -- Since I cannot locate a club record to determine how many if any he saved at that level it is unfair to give him a star for just two high profile saves.

Also if anyone knows if it is possible to recreate keeper kickouts that end up near the opposing penalty area besides increasing SP, ST, or Drop Kick style then please let me know, as in PES 5 I have been unable to make his kick outs boom from one side of the field to the other. :(
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby Vandeach » 2009 Feb 02, 16:45

Try Shot Power: 99.
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby as_10 » 2009 Feb 02, 16:50

Oriello wrote:Jump: 70

wtf :shock:
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby Oriello » 2009 Feb 02, 22:12

Vandeach wrote:Try Shot Power: 99.

I did try it before, but I think that PES 5 might not have the ability to remake that sort of kick out, as gave him that karate drop kick style 4 (has a noticable increas from default kick out style on lower values of 80) and SP 99 ST 65 and there was no real difference, there seems to be a barrier as to how far a ball can go on kick outs in PES 5, thanks anyways. ;)

Strangely though when there is an incident of a player being hurt and you can kickout the ball as part of fair play, and if this happens with your keeper then he hoofs the ball into orbit like an ICBM, and some of the keepers that did this had like SP 82. Damn game engine is starting to show some dated features. :lol:

as_10 wrote:
Oriello wrote:Jump: 70

wtf :shock:


This value is actually been carried over since when I had him on PES 3, :p. But when I was tweaking all the stats to fit with what I learnt on this site and the ladders the jump still actually seemed correct.

Seriously Tomaszewski was an uncommon keeper for the times in regard to his enormous height, while many keepers from then were all either of average height (Zoff 182, Kostka 179, Maier 180) or maybe just a bit more, so they were the ones then that worked on making sure they had some leaping ability, Tomaszewski probably figured that since he was already as tall as a 180 cm GK might jump to, that he would just stand and catch. XD

He sort of was a rather unathletic keeper, and often struck me as just some shmuck wearing a pair of gloves at times rather than a professional footballer, but Pele called him the best keeper in the world after the 1974 World Cup :? So I guess I must be wrong. :lol: ;) But really he was a keeper of great fortune, that sort of luck that one needs to be any good and he rode that luck for all it was worth. Dont get me wrong he had some very good skill, but it was to me more af an aura thing that made him 'good'.

I am actually pretty satisfied with his stats in general as he can come up with saves in PES that looked exactly like what he did, and he can have moments of standing still watching play/sleeping on the job as the ball zips by the outside of the post.

But I am also open to any suggestions by others.:)
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby E_9 » 2009 Feb 02, 22:15

He want *Penalty Stopper :D I think ;]
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby Oriello » 2009 Feb 02, 22:23

Okay I will put it back then. ;)

I wrote above that I removed *Penalty Stopper, as I know that he faced three penalties for Poland and saved two, but I have no clue of his penalty stopping record at club level.

Do you by any chance know if Tomaszewski saved any penalties with Lodz or in Belgium or Spain? I could not locate any records :(. As I just want to make sure he is worthy of the star from a regular basis, rather than just 2 out of 3 attempts. ;)
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby E_9 » 2009 Feb 02, 22:39

Noo, I don't know it :?
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby Oriello » 2009 Mar 31, 20:38

Further proof he proably should not have the *Penalty Stopper star. :D And by the looks of the video I think I was a bit generous with his Agility too. :lol:
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby Oriello » 2010 Jan 28, 00:41

Updated to new format, made some listed changes;
Stamina 66 - back down baby, Buffon 66, Dida 65, Tomaszaewski 68!? :lol: No! My original value was fine.
Balance 85 - down -3 points, I was not terribly impressed with his claiming of balls on set pieces, very massiv person but not the dominant force in his own box in 74.
Top Speed 65 - to tell the truth I got a bit of problems rating keepers here, as looking across the board at ladders , Cech, Buffon, Dida etc. I see them/recall differently then what they are rated - difficult to adjust this to ladders, but I know 64 was underrated on simple account of some antics at Wembly (flying off goal line to deal with situations his own special way :lol: ) and in 74 WC, I forget offhand what match it was...West Gemany?Brazil? Polish line was up at half way line with offside failing Tomaszewski suprisingly rushed out to clear ball for a throw in, and holy smokes did his fat ass move. But then in 1-1's I did not feel he was so decisive in speed as to go higher than a Dida also at 65.
Acceleration 66 - Brought -1 down in relation to my last comment about his 1-1 capabilities, at 67 in game he seemed too good/fast at closing the space down, problem is he could accelerate well - just in 1-1's he was not a raging bull/brave sort of keeper which keeps me from 67-69 range, to avoid making him too good in the 1-1.
SPA/SPS - upped, not forced to play the ball along the ground as modern keepers are, remebering keepers then still could pick the ball up on a back pass, but I thought his grounded kick outs were more deserving of better figures here, SPS not to 65 standard as again not forced to play grounded passes, never was rushed to pass the ball quickly off, though okay range along the floor.
LPA/LPS - His kickouts of goal were not always booming clearances up field almost into opposition box, but on occassion he actually delicatley chipped the ball to SB's with no difficulty keeping it in (ahh minus that one time in my notes it went out....)
SA 42 - down -1, I actually do not remember what the fudge I did this for on my OF, I think I was harking back to an odd kick out going well wide and somehow tide it in, anways -1 below Manninger I have no problems with 42, though he apparently did score a goal at club level, how he did it, booming clearance ala Paul Robinson, or a header like Palop, or something else???
SP 90 - -1 point less, while he did get great range in kickouts it was not a consistent feat of mortaring down outside opposition 18-yard box, so in view of Maier and Zoff being close to Tomaszewski in some kick outs but being lower SP, I decided to drop him on ladders, as in game even at SP 99 I do not get the proper effect, so no biggie for myself.
ST 48 - I raised this I thin from 45, purely on how well he 'hooked' onto his goal kicks, I liked the style of his kick - it seemed better to me than like Buffon.
Jump 72 - Noting as_10's earlier astonishment, indeed he actually did 'jump' for high balls, but it was the smallest hop you may ever see a player make :lol: , but I was more impressed in his acrobatic flings through the air for far posts to make reflexe saves, good body movment from a standing position for a big guy.
Aggression 58 - up by +8 points, ladder wise I am unsure if any GK is at 50, so I parked him -1 point behind Buffon, a line hugger often, but occasionally did come for corners and out to do the 1-1 thing (reluctantly in my eyes)
TeamWork 75 - -3 points down, I was unimpressed at his communication with the back line and its orginization, though I do usually have too high standards in defensive quarters of the pitch..anyways in game expermenting I 'felt' the Polish defence just a bit more wobbly after this drop, so I stuck with it.

NOTE this set is optimized for 1974 performances, I will wacth a couple 1978 games and be sure to note any stark differeances, otherwise possibly he might have second tweaking to average him out between the two World Cups.
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby Moysís » 2016 Dec 04, 12:57

What about this set? We've discussed a bit about him, you said that I overrated him in some aspects but I think he was more than solid keeper TBH.. looking on the new way of ratings probably AGI should be below 70, on the contrary JUM should be higher and I'd swapped DEF with GKS...
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby Oriello » 2016 Dec 07, 00:54

I think I recall we talked about him, I can only find the set you sent via PM - I thought I commented on it (but can't find my PM)..in that set you wanted higher AGL 77 , not lower :P ..

Truthfully, I think I mentioned it when we last discussed him, I find it kinda difficult to rate keepers - I don't have too much experience with it - and to make it more difficult I think he was a bit unorthodox..I found all the material/threads on this site posted by various members and I think I kinda get it...one of the recent posts I found was by Korinov that seems to sum up the current interpertation of Goalkeeper stats:

Korinov wrote:We've never been sure what stats do for GKs, but we have somewhat of an overall picture.

We usually rate DEF regarding how solid a keeper is dealing with difficult situations, i.e. covering well his goal when shot from close distances, 1-on-1s, etc.
BB is overall strenght, how dominant a keeper is when dealing with aerial balls, specially in crowded or tough situations (corners, indirect FKs).
RES is reflexes, just that.
AGI... well, how agile a keeper is. Specially when diving to reach ground-level shots (many, many keepers with good reflexes have serious issues with this).
GKS is the key stat. It's mostly discussed as 'handling' but in truth it basically regulates a keeper's ability to do the right thing in every kind of situation he's presented with. In short, the higher the GKS, the better the GK will act within his physical limitations. This includes positioning and awareness on upcoming danger. GKS is the most important stat, the rest act mostly as enhancers.
TW is coordination with his defenders.

Guaita was given a high GKS rating because he is (or was) the kind of keeper with a very solid goalkeeping ability. He's been always prone to silly mistakes and concentration lapses, so the way to compensate for that is a low Ment value and also a very low Form, specially during last seasons where he's been probably not up to much (and yet... to say such a thing should require a complete analysis, I can put some work on a video compilation).

Completely trashing his set by giving him a bunch of low yellow values does not do him any justice.
http://pesstatsdatabase.com/viewtopic.p ... 00#p556904



When I was play testing Deyna stats, I also modded Tomaszewski (among others) to see what a different take on the set would play like, BTW I am not proposing the set just showing what I worked with;

Spoiler: show
Attack: 30
Defence: 83
Balance: 85
Stamina: 69
Top Speed: 68
Acceleration: 62
Response: 93
Agility: 72
Dribble Accuracy: 50
Dribble Speed: 49
Short Pass Accuracy: 55
Short Pass Speed: 58
Long Pass Accuracy: 64
Long Pass Speed: 65
Shot Accuracy: 42
Shot Power: 92
Shot Technique: 48
Free Kick Accuracy: 42
Curling: 43
Header: 49
Jump: 70
Technique: 53
Aggression: 58
Mentality: 84
Keeper Skills: 89
Team Work: 75


Now first off the original set I think was serviceable in game and gave him that sort of erratic nature/style I was looking for... I know I went in some different directions from your PM suggestions and the above post (I lowered JMP even more :lol: and upped Shot Power). I did not really notice him playing more true to real life, he was a bit different, but I dunno maybe it's just the game mechanics of PES 5 being wonky and 'arcade-like' - and maybe I just saw what I wanted to see :( ...Now the rest of the stats I did in following with how Goalkeeper stats work, supposedly, my reasoning was;

DEF : 1-1's when he tried to close down space I recall him being average to poor and do not really remember anything outstanding, BUT on the line just him vs a goal bound shot from close range he was ridiculous at times making saves with his legs or thighs (to me it seemed a great deal of fortune, he did not look like he knew where the ball was, but somehow just managed to do enough to keep it out), it was not even reactions just the ball being shot at him...I thought this more GKS...How he dealt with difficult situations?..I thought other keepers tended to do things in a more orthodox manner that calmed the defense when under siege, but to me Tomaszewski kinda created more chaos, with his defenders needing to fly in and clear - he perpetuated unsafe situations by strange decisions/actions - http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3cwwdt watch from 31:17 to 33:25 - it's a good microcosm of him, tyries to claim a CK completely missing it, then pulls out a crazy point blank save off a Facchetti header, then claims a cross nicely, then makes a fingertip reaction save off a low cross (in a weird manner, to me anyways), he's brilliant but all over the place.

BB : I didn't see him as very dominant of his area..I'm not sure.. you really think he needs more?

RES : I increased it, Szczesny is at 93 and I've seen a fair bit of him and reaction wise I can't make a distinction. I'm curious in the set you PM'd me a while back you had this at 87, do you think 90(93) is too much?

AGL : I do not recall him reaching low down to make saves, or at least anything that stands out, so I'm fine with lowering it, just does AGL influence double saves, or is that Mentality/Tenacity alone? As he pulled some double saves off well - he had this "bouncy" step, like a tennis player, always read to dart off to the sides.

GKS : I've seen it mentioned that the higher the stat it makes a keeper act like the pinnacle of goalkeeping movements (i.e. GKS 99 = Buffon), this is where I think Tomaszewski could be low, as he did not do the right thing in every situation, BUT the other bits the stat governs, like making saves and catching - he was really superb. If I swap DEF and GKS he would have 85 GKS, less than Hart? To me Hart acts like a regular/typical keeper but messes up sometimes, whilst Tomaszewski was this cocky keeper that pulled brilliant saves out of his ass, because half the time he could look amateur in his approach.

JMP : You gave him 77 in your set, looking at the ladders I guess low-end average value is okay...70 seems to be the bottom :? Not sure he was that bad ... I just always precieved him not a "jumpy" keeper as he towered over every player in the 1970's.

MEN : I raised it a bit more than the set you sent my way, part of his nature, he saved Poland's bacon numerous times in tough spots...nothing seemed to phase him, almost conceding or indeed conceding a goal was just another day on the job, always seemed to play at a high level even when under the cosh.

TW : could be dropped to a bit more average 73-74.

Shot Power: I went back and increased it from a past drop, as I rewatched some bits of him and this stood out again, he bombed it way past the half way line way more than other keepers of the time seemed to do...I guess it was not focused and I don't recall it being something that ever resulted in an actual goal..87-88 I'm okay with.

I'm open to another interpertation, as I said I don't know how to really rate keepers well - just give me what and why.


Also all those little changes you had in speed, acc, passing etc. would you like me to incorporate them? I don't see anything overtly off and could be made to first post... maybe ACC might be a bit much at 67 - like I stated his 1-1 closing down I thought lacking.


NOTE ppl using him in next gen PES games, if you got a stat/card for a keeper who makes good long throws that generate counter attacks, give it this guy, it was decent ability of his.
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby Moysís » 2016 Dec 07, 16:39

Yes, I've suggested higher but looking modern/classics ladders and new way of rating I think I'm went too high with that value.. It's true that he had pretty good mobility for a guy of his size but that were overpowered.. surely he must be in white, maybe I'm wrong about lower from 70's but he should stay around 70-72 area.. You decide about that maybe 71-72..

Concering DEF, well he had good postinional movements and complete good defending. If we look on new way of rating DEF, that he was successful in any kind of making saves he should be here higher from 85 tbh.. He was pretty good in making saves, while his reaction IMO weren't world class and reflexes. He was calm keeper, I'd keep RES in orange but on the lowest value.. If we look on that situation, well every keeper has his own blunders, but I'd say it is more about his GKS, how he was good in catching balls. BB should stay on 85, some average number, since he wasn't complete bad in that considering his physique that he should been giant in his area. About JUM, I still think he should have higher from AGI, at least by 1-2 points higher. Other value you've suggested in set seems fair to me, maybe TW below green. TS/ACC ratio is a good call about higher TS from ACC, maybe 67-64 would be good point there. SP is 86/87 for me max, he didn't had constantly strong shots in kicking balls from his area, sometimes he has knew smash ball even for 90+ but looking generally he isn't for orange zone. Feel free for making changes but I think DEF>GKS, RES 90 and JUM>AGI..
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby Oriello » 2016 Dec 08, 00:22

Okay a quick summary of the key stats;

Defence: 91 -- These are the values you PM'd me, it gives him the DEF>GKS. Like I said I'm unsure of how to best rate keepers so I don't know if that DEF is too much.
Goalkeeper Skills: 89 -- Or should we lower both? to DEF 89 (level with Oblak) and GKS 88?

EDIT: I slept on it, and did not think of him not having the star *1-1 stopper .. so I guess it is more acceptable for 90ish DEF rating .. maybe TW might be even 71 though?

Balance: 85 _tick

Top Speed: 67 -- is this what you meant in your previous post for TS/ACC? Or did you mean rather a range of 64-67 for ACC whilst TS is 68-69ish?
Acceleration: 64

Response: 90 -- these 3 stats okay? I thought some of his reflex saves were of a world class level :? :( ..
Agility: 70
Shot Power: 86

Jump: 74 -- like Handanovic, towers the majority of players often claims crosses by just standing fully erect, still has some left for amazeballz leap saves. Let me know if you think it should be a bit higher?

Aggression: 58 -- Just to clarify from the set you PM'd, you gave 66 - did you you view him as a supportive keeper? I assume the stat works the same way for GK, moves up the pitch in possession, 66 is on the higher end of average for this site, and that is looking at modern keepers...I don't really recall him being anything special in this area, very stay at home keeper (it was an era when pass back rule did not exist, so at most he would be at the edge of his 18-yard box picking up back passes to waste time/release pressure off midfield).

Team Work: 72 -- (-2) Below De Gea, Szczeszny, (-1) below with ter Stegen and Handanovic, level with Neto of Juventus ...I've lowered TW more because DEF 91/GKS 89, not his strongest feature, and miscommunication seemed to be part of his problem of being "individual"/random in some actions - rather than part of a cohesive unit.
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby Moysís » 2016 Dec 08, 15:22

Ok, I'm fine with only RES in orange as the highest number among these three key aspects.. I'd put DEF 89 GKS 88 it seems fine, since in both abilities he weren't been too much dominant comparing to the other one. About speed stats, I've thought put TS 67 with ACC 64 to reflect the difference between them.. agility is fine on 71 with JUM on highest white

Oriello wrote:Aggression: 58 -- Just to clarify from the set you PM'd, you gave 66 - did you you view him as a supportive keeper? I assume the stat works the same way for GK, moves up the pitch in possession, 66 is on the higher end of average for this site, and that is looking at modern keepers...I don't really recall him being anything special in this area, very stay at home keeper (it was an era when pass back rule did not exist, so at most he would be at the edge of his 18-yard box picking up back passes to waste time/release pressure off midfield).


Yes, you are right here. Well he has knew come deeper in the box on the crosses from the corner or wing, we could saw in that video and he has pretty often did that but looking more around ladders he doesn't need that high number.. But still I'd keep it above 50's zone..

So, to summarize..

DEF 89
GKS 88
RES 90
AGI 71
JUM 74
AGG 60
TW 72
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby Oriello » 2016 Dec 08, 20:11

Sent a PM with the above values, and some changes from the set you sent my way on the other stats.

EDIT

OH MY GAAAWWWD 1000 posts, it only took 8 years to make!
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby Moysís » 2016 Dec 10, 21:45

Any news here?!
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby Oriello » 2016 Dec 11, 16:22

I sent a PM to 3 of the classic mods who seem active, I know Albo is only on his phone (has laptop issue) so its a pain in the ass to edit..probably since I PM'd 3 ppl each one assumed the other took care of it :lol: .
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby Moysís » 2016 Dec 11, 16:29

Oriello wrote:I sent a PM to 3 of the classic mods who seem active, I know Albo is only on his phone


Hahaha, its well known to me as well :D
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Re: Jan TOMASZEWSKI | 1974-1975

Postby Moysís » 2017 Jan 12, 19:43

Any news here?

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