Nuri Şahin | 2009-2011 | 2013-2016


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Nuri Şahin | 2009-2011 | 2013-2016

Postby PES Stats Database » 2012 Jun 04, 11:04

Club: Borussia Dortmund

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Growth Type: Early/Lasting

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Club: Borussia Dortmund



Growth Type: Early/Lasting

INFO:

Nuri Şahin (born 5 September 1988) is a Turkish footballer who plays for Bundesliga club Borussia Dortmund and the Turkey national football team. He plays as a central midfielder and is known for his passing ability.

He began his career at Borussia Dortmund, spending six years there and winning the Bundesliga in 2011 – including a year-long loan at Feyenoord – before signing for Real Madrid in 2011 for €10 million. In August 2012, Şahin agreed to a one-year loan deal with Liverpool, which was terminated in January 2013 to allow him to return to Dortmund on an 18-month loan.

Şahin represents Turkey at international level and has done since under-16 level. He made his senior international debut in 2005 and has since earned over 45 caps, representing the nation at UEFA Euro 2016.

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Re: Nuri SAHIN 2009-2011

Postby yourigo » 2012 Jun 05, 17:28

he was simply the best all-round midfielder for the 2010/2011 season. But his stats going forward were so good that the defensive part of his game actually gets a bit overlooked, he was 7th best in the league for tackles per game with 3.7, ahead of tymoshchuk for example, and with only 1.7 fouls per game he actually had a better Tackle/Fouls ratio than arturo vidal. He was however tied for first in the most dribbled player but the other one is...sven bender. So i think it was mostly down to dortmund's open style of play than frailties i that regard.

i do think you've overrated his passing a bit, particularly long-passing. Many times he was too ambitous and Barrios for example wasn't as dominant in the air as his height would sugest and that lead to a lot of wasted balls
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Re: Nuri SAHIN 2009-2011

Postby jurgens » 2012 Jun 05, 18:21

Originally had him on 73 def and 83? I think response, but toned it down as I thought it was overkill. Over-rated passing stats compared to what though? PSD's old standards where 87 was enough lpa for sneijder and no one but spanish players went above 87 spa? SPA might be a little too high, but his long passing is really among the best in the world, he can't be any lower globally really, even in madrid when he didnt do much, he still made some incredible through balls and long passes
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Re: Nuri SAHIN 2009-2011

Postby yourigo » 2012 Jun 05, 19:37

i understand what you mean, and i agree he has world class potential. But while he does have that potential, he doesn't show it every game. He had world class games, but in the others many of his passes were overhit just a bit, or don't go precisely where he wants them, in other words he is still perfecting his art. Xabi alonso today, or sneijder 2 years ago, are in fact players who deserve over 90 (although imo alonso doesn't quite deserve 95) because they have that consistency that separates them from sahin. Personaly i believe sahin could be better than either of them, but for a set of his dortmund days i think he only showed flashes of what he can do and has much room for improvement

regarding defense, maybe you overdid attack a bit and were afraid to give to high defense values too ;-)? he is a deep midfielder, passing is his specialty not evading defenders or anything. You can give him 90 and it would mostly be useless to him, particularly because of his low aggression. He was however very clean in the tackle, so i wouldn't disagree to 3 points from attack given to defense instead

EDIT- About response, his intercepting wasn't exactly world class, especially compared to bender, but i'd still rate him about as good as carrick this season so 83 wouldn't be overdoing it

btw, there are players out there who do deserve over 90 for long passing, arteta for instance particularly in his everton days, and others who don't quite get there but are still terribly underrated like stuart holden for 2010/2011, so it's not a matter of sahin deserving to close the gap to alonso or pirlo, sahin is perfectly fine at, for instance, 89, and the question should be filling that gap to alonso with the deserving players
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Re: Nuri SAHIN 2009-2011

Postby jurgens » 2012 Jun 06, 05:01

or don't go precisely where he wants them,


But I'm pretty sure that happens to every single player throughout history. But you know, every body loves to say things like this.. he over hit them, or it didn't go where he wanted them.. but no one ever provides any kind of evidence footage.
So I'll do it for you.
This is the first video I found for searching "sahin vs team" there around a dozen others on the web, but this is the first on the result list so I'll be using this.

Here is everyone of his "diffuclt" passes from a single match vs wolfsburg
Spoiler: show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zskaDAgSPZk&t=0m31s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zskaDAgSPZk&t=1m12s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zskaDAgSPZk&t=2m17s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zskaDAgSPZk&t=3m4s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zskaDAgSPZk&t=5m10s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zskaDAgSPZk&t=5m45s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zskaDAgSPZk&t=6m24s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zskaDAgSPZk&t=7m35s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zskaDAgSPZk&t=8m8s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zskaDAgSPZk&t=8m20s


10 or so diffuclt and important passes, how many were over-hit and didn't go percisely where he wanted? Looks like one to me.

For more on his passing you can see this video This also includes missed placed passes, so you can get an idea of how far off he was and what type of passes he plays.


But while he does have that potential, he doesn't show it every game


Is that so? You know I didn't watch every game he played in 2010, but I caught maybe 35% of them. And there wasn't a single game where he didn't demonstrate his world class passing ability. Funny how in every game I saw, he had the passing.. I guess in the ramdon games I missed.. he just didn't eh?


Xabi alonso today, or sneijder 2 years ago, are in fact players who deserve over 90 (although imo alonso doesn't quite deserve 95) because they have that consistency that separates them from sahin.


Xabi alonso, though hes been more adnvetours this year, is not comparable to sahin and sneijdr who try much more diffuclt balls. And as far as sneijder goes, sahin was arguably more consistent in hard balls than sneijder was.. sneijder always had/has the problem if hitting balls to quickly as soon as he seems them... but does anyone doubht his ability because of these misses? No, because of the technique and variety and vision in his passes is clearly on another level, much like sahin. If theres any difference it's minimal between the two in terms of consistency.

but for a set of his dortmund days i think he only showed flashes of what he can do and has much room for improvement


He didn't show "Flashes" of what he was capable of, he did it game to game. If you think Sahin showed "Flashes" of what he can do because he messed up a few passes, then I guess thats good news for inter fans, as sneijder also messed up a few of his passes... but if that's just "flashes" of what he can do.. imagine what'll he be capable of in the future.

regarding defense, maybe you overdid attack


How did I over do attack?

he is a deep midfielder, passing is his specialty not evading defenders or anything.


Evading defenders eh? We don't rate attack based on that, take a look around at other deep lying playmakers like guardiola and pirlo, you'll see similar values on them. As you said you've been away for awhile, we don't rate players in the same manner anymore, almost every stat and individual scale has changed significantly.

btw, there are players out there who do deserve over 90 for long passing


sahin for one :D

so it's not a matter of sahin deserving to close the gap to alonso or pirlo, sahin is perfectly fine at, for instance, 89, and the question should be filling that gap to alonso with the deserving players


I just can't see how anyone who saw sahin consistently would see such a huge gap between him and alonso, it's not right to me, at all.
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Re: Nuri SAHIN 2009-2011

Postby yourigo » 2012 Jun 06, 13:47

it's not a huge gap, but as i said i also don't rate alonso as a 95 either. There's 2 main reasons i don't think he deserves over 90. For one, it's one of those things where i believe it's necessary some observation time, if you notice arteta, alonso or pirlo are slightly older then sahin, they've been honing their skills and demonstrating them for some time now. Sahin on the other hand had a good moment of form, he gave us a taste of what he could do, but then he came to madrid and his form was so bad mourinho couldn't trust him. I don't know what you've seen in his madrid games, but it certainly wasn't the sahin of dortmund. The second main reason is numbers (i have a feeling you won't like this..). It's funny how in that video you posted he only missed one attempt out of 10 or so, that's a 90% success rate right? Curiously enough, for 2010/2011 sahin only got 165 out of 265 long passes to reach their target..about 62%. That's not exactly close now is it? It might be wrong to trust in statistics, but relying on youtube highlights is just amateurism. Only his best games will be posted, his "red arrow" days, noone would bother posting a video of an average game. But it's amazing how in the random 35% games you watched he was world-class in all of them, i myself can't say i've watched more than 35% either and yet i've seen a couple of ones where he wasn't. He was poor against schalke and hoffenheim early in the season, had a really bad game agaisnt kaiserslautern.. notice i'm not quoting statistics here, these are actual recolections. But again, numbers don't lie: this year, Arteta had 88% longball success, last year it was 90%. But he's very conservative, how about Pirlo? 84% i think. Even the adveturous and technicaly chalenged Alonso managed 78% success rate. They simply have a consistency that sahin didn't.

btw,

this

is

the

most

annoying

thing

ever
"You do ill if you praise, and still worse if you reprove in a matter you do not understand." - Da Vinci
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Re: Nuri SAHIN 2009-2011

Postby jurgens » 2012 Jun 06, 15:05

here's 2 main reasons i don't think he deserves over 90. For one, it's one of those things where i believe it's necessary some observation time, if you notice arteta, alonso or pirlo are slightly older then sahin,


Old PSD mentality. We don't rate players based on their age, we rate them based on what they show.


Sahin on the other hand had a good moment of form, he gave us a taste of what he could do, but then he came to madrid and his form was so bad mourinho couldn't trust him


Not true at all, his passing was far from bad. And I'm gonna do the same thing I did last time. One search, first vid that comes up, all passes from that vid which are diffuclt.

okay... he made one diffuclt pass in the whole match:lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN2E1ebByKU&t=2m3s

As I said before, you could still see when he made the off diffuclt pass in madrid you could tell hes still the exact same in it.

I can't be bothered to look for more. But his passing accuracy was 88% in the few matches he played, so that "his form was so bad mourinho couldn't trust him" has nothing to do with his passing. And no he wasn't so bad. That wasn't the case at all. He was injured for a large part of the season. He plays in the same role as Alonso. Who speaks spanish, is absolutly essential to madrids play, one of mourinhos most trusted players. Not to mention if Mourinho has star player, he plays star players.. hes never cared much about rising talents. So Sahin didn't play. When he did play, he was average, made a few good passes but thats about it.


Curiously enough, for 2010/2011 sahin only got 165 out of 265 long passes to reach their target..about 62%.


Where are you getting these statistics? I would love to see them. Statistics are all fine and well, but they don't tell you many things. A) was the pass on target but was intercepted, B) was the pass on target but the player was too slow to get it, c) was the pass on target but failed to reach it etc. All of these do not mean the pass was a bad pass or off target, so the statistic means little.

Also for a player like Sahin, who plays extremely diffuclt balls, through balls, wing switching balls, lobber through balls etc etc in a vast variety of ways, 62% is an amazing ratio. How is that supposed to be bad? And as I said, theres many things these statics don't tell you, the actual number could be 80% for all these statics tell you. I just can't fathom how you think 62% of long balls for sahin is bad... who do you think he is.. Pirlo with his 98 LPA?

It's funny how in that video you posted he only missed one attempt out of 10 or so, that's a 90% success rate right?


Out of the diffuclt passes, about 90%. However that are rushed or intercepted or misread by reciving members, these would probably give him about 80%+.

Cop out of an argument, dismissive. It's what people always fall back on when actual evidence is provided.. and why? "lol youtube vids can put some reality behind my statistics, so I'll just say "lol youtube vids are ammaturish" Yeah good one. Way to dismiss actual evidence so your argument is essentially an unvarifiable hypothesis. What if I went through some of my match collection and posted more passes? What would you say then, more bullshit excuses? Well, I'm not gonna do that because I don't want to waste time on such shit when actual evidence is sitting right in front of me, made for exactly what we are discussing.


Only his best games will be posted, his "red arrow" days, noone would bother posting a video of an average game


Another cop out, well done. Red arrow day, yeah of course. When provided with actual evidence, ignore it and use the old "form" argument to invalidated all points that aren't the same as yours.

What you say isn't true at all anyways, many people make matches videos for every single match a player plays. Hell, even multiple people make the same video for the same match, regardless if it was average or not. Nuri Sahin had a dedicated youtuber making vids for him in the past, but unfortunately it was closed for copyright material or something like that. Many of his videos are reuploaded.


But it's amazing how in the random 35% games you watched he was world-class in all of them, i myself can't say i've watched more than 35% either and yet i've seen a couple of ones where he wasn't.


I didn't say he was world class in every single game. What I said was "And there wasn't a single game where he didn't demonstrate his world class passing ability." Which is true. Does that mean he didn' miss place some passes? No it doesn't. It simply he means the passing quality his displayed was world class, the types of passes he made, where of very high quality... I say that instead "of the highest quality" because Pirlo exists.


how about Pirlo? 84% i think. Even the adveturous and technicaly chalenged Alonso managed 78% success rate. They simply have a consistency that sahin didn't.


No one comapres to Pirlo as he is other worldy. And sahin doesn't compare to him either, being 7 points lower.. and 3 red points. And as I said, Alonso is not an adventours passer, though more so this season. Hes a much, much more conservative passer than Sahin. Sahin probably tries 5 diffuclt balls before he plays a single one. Of course hes going to have a higher success rate. Statistics tell you little about the pass. Not to mention, hes 4 points below Alonso and 1 red.. lets not forget the 11+ LPS and 3 reds that Alonso has on him.

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