Thiago Alcântara


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Thiago Alcântara

Postby PES Stats Database » 2010 Sep 22, 07:05

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Last edited by vinnie on 2013 Nov 28, 08:00, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara

Postby furymaker » 2020 Jan 20, 15:19

What?
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Re: Thiago Alcântara

Postby KeyserSoze » 2020 Jan 20, 16:17

Whoah10115 wrote:Should absolutely have AM as an option.

And his ATT should drop. His TW as well. He's a super duper talent playing in a huge team that's too big for what's around them. And he's mostly an over passer. Even his goal came from him being desperate to pass and playing against a nothing team.


He displays in a similar manner against opposition of equal-par standards in UCL, and he's been like that for the last six years. And implying he sucks at attacking because his main role is building up play is simplistic. He generates tons of scoring chances and some assists each season, no matter which rivals he's facing each matchday. Maybe you are expecting him to score a bit more often, but that's not his main role and it was never like that in his case.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara

Postby furymaker » 2020 Jan 20, 16:31

"he doesnt show up against bigger teams" is literally biggest lie when it comes to Thiago
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Re: Thiago Alcântara

Postby Whoah10115 » 2020 Jan 20, 16:48

So I have two different responses where people infer and make shit up.

Read. I didn't say that.

Thanks.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara

Postby KeyserSoze » 2020 Jan 20, 17:18

Whoah10115 wrote:So I have two different responses where people infer and make shit up.

Read. I didn't say that.

Thanks.


Really?

Whoah10115 wrote:He's a super duper talent playing in a huge team that's too big for what's around them.


That's another way of saying he's just playing for a powerhouse team against weaker opposition (i.e., you're questioning how good he is against tougher rivals). And while that statement is partially true for some moments, it is still a valid point to compare Thiago's performances against weaker and stronger opposition, in order to rate how good he plays for seasons as a whole.

Whoah10115 wrote:And he's mostly an over passer. Even his goal came from him being desperate to pass and playing against a nothing team.


Again, I would rather not to rate him just based on a single match against a side with a really low recent form like Hertha.
Anyway, he's a classy passer indeed and also being very supportive to be the best option to get the ball back and play a one-two or keeping ball possesion for a few extra seconds. And he usually does what he's expected to. Seeing him scoring is a welcomed benefit, not something really mandatory for his role.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara

Postby Whoah10115 » 2020 Jan 20, 17:59

KeyserSoze wrote:
Whoah10115 wrote:So I have two different responses where people infer and make shit up.

Read. I didn't say that.

Thanks.


Really?

Whoah10115 wrote:He's a super duper talent playing in a huge team that's too big for what's around them.


That's another way of saying he's just playing for a powerhouse team against weaker opposition (i.e., you're questioning how good he is against tougher rivals). And while that statement is partially true for some moments, it is still a valid point to compare Thiago's performances against weaker and stronger opposition, in order to rate how good he plays for seasons as a whole.

Whoah10115 wrote:And he's mostly an over passer. Even his goal came from him being desperate to pass and playing against a nothing team.


Again, I would rather not to rate him just based on a single match against a side with a really low recent form like Hertha.
Anyway, he's a classy passer indeed and also being very supportive to be the best option to get the ball back and play a one-two or keeping ball possesion for a few extra seconds. And he usually does what he's expected to. Seeing him scoring is a welcomed benefit, not something really mandatory for his role.


I spoke of specific values. I was also specific with what I think he does. I didn't say his ATT value should be low, but should be lower than it is currently. I didn't imply anything sucked, nor is there any reason to assume that my expectation was for him to score a lot.

I also didn't suggest he could only do what he does against smaller teams and only smaller teams. In both cases I think it's reasonable to drop his ATT. To be fair, I think he's an attacking midfielder who people are eager to make the new Xavi. And he accumulates a lot of touches but I don't think he elevates attack or creates danger as much as current value represents. But maybe the better suggestion would be to focus on his AGG, but for sure your response just leapt to assumption.

His play style is interpreted by many by his accumulating 100 touches in game after game. If he played somewhere else, he wouldn't do that, and it would stretch into CL or anywhere else. He's had one world-class season, and it was Ancelotti's first season, where he played as a more attacking midfielder. This is his seventh season in Munich. He's had an ACL tear and plenty of niggling things, but he's been there a while and he has one world-class season. Even tho he chose Spain, I like him a lot. But the goal for this weekend was just an example, and he has a lot more throughout the years.

And his TW is grossly overrated. If he were at 92, that would be well into world-class territory there, but 96 is a number for the all-time ranks, and it's based on his ability to touch the ball a lot, which happens mostly in the Bundesliga. 92 doesn't suck.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara

Postby KeyserSoze » 2020 Jan 20, 19:16

He makes tons of touches, but it is not just because it's about Bundesliga.
He's the first choice deep-lying playmaker at Bayern. And, after all, it is a no-brainer to expect him playing with first touches a lot from that role. I understand your concern about him not being a really offensive threat if compared to that particular season with Ancelotti as manager. But he's still fine since then. Nowadays he's mainly focused on dictating tempo at his will, so he obviously has to combine dribbles and first touches with that function, no matter whether it is a Bundesliga or a UCL match.

Whoah10115 wrote:I also didn't suggest he could only do what he does against smaller teams and only smaller teams. In both cases I think it's reasonable to drop his ATT. To be fair, I think he's an attacking midfielder who people are eager to make the new Xavi.


Xavi had low 80s in ATT even when not in his prime time, and mid 80s in his best years. For midfielders, there is a significant gap in terms of offensive sense between ATT at mid 70s (like in Thiago's case) and the same stat in low-mid 80s. No need to put those two players in comparison if there is already enough difference stats-wise.

Current TW is debatable indeed, but you just suggested a concrete value in your most recent reply. So don't get surprised if there was an initially skeptical reception from other members.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara

Postby jurgens » 2020 Jan 20, 19:41

but 96 is a number for the all-time ranks, and it's based on his ability to touch the ball a lot, which happens mostly in the Bundesliga. 92 doesn't suck.


You keep on throwing out "all-time ranks" as if we are totally ignorant to it, and as if it's some sort of argument. It isn't. Saying "all time" is far too grand anyways for TW. How we rate, it's pretty much peaked with Guardiolas Barcelona, with Xavi/iniesta/Busquets being the absolute embodiment of micro-movements and small adjustments in space to create and support. With Thiago being Guadiola's golden boy, he was raised into basically being the heir to Xavi, he was very, very slowly broken into first team football, and even back then as a child, he had support movement blowing Iniesta out of the water (iniesta on 95), and rivaling Xavi, and hitting similar numbers to Xavi. When he left for Bayern, he took thiago with him and used as his focal point for possession football, for a god damn good reason.

So yeah, it's an all-time best value. Too fucking right it is, its there for a reason.
which happens mostly in the Bundesliga. 92 doesn't suck.


And hes set insane records in BL with that. But hes also played in Barca and hit similar numbers, you can go back and see games where he was long creator without xavi or iniesta and hitting over 100 passes in a game, at something like 19, which is ridiculous.


His play style is interpreted by many by his accumulating 100 touches in game after game. If he played somewhere else, he wouldn't do that, and it would stretch into CL or anywhere else
.

This is so dumb since he literally dictated the reigns MULTIPLE times for the greatest possession orientated team, possibly of all time? When he was 18 or so. Talk about a litmus test.

edit: 2 mins searching https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
thats him at 18 with 134 passes as the leading man for Barca, you can find endless examples.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara

Postby Whoah10115 » 2020 Jan 20, 21:10

Ok, his TW should be 92. 96 is too high.

He's a very good player, but till now he hasn't begun to live up to his ability.

He doesn't create enough danger to merit current value.

Damn, annoying
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Re: Thiago Alcântara

Postby Akephalos » 2020 Jan 20, 21:29

Whoah10115 wrote:Ok, his TW should be 92. 96 is too high.

He's a very good player, but till now he hasn't begun to live up to his ability.

He doesn't create enough danger to merit current value.

Damn, annoying


Honestly, do you watch any Bayerns game at all ? how many Bayern's matches do you watch per season? and if you do are those matches only at UCL level? judging a player stats only by a couple good/bad games is not how we do things in PSD.

You keep saying 92 is too high because he can't be in the all time ranks, wich is clearly only your opinion, while a lot of people think different than you and we mostly agree that that 96 in TW is deserved, and will be deserved till Thiago is not longer that good in that area.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara

Postby Whoah10115 » 2020 Jan 20, 22:33

Akephalos wrote:
Whoah10115 wrote:Ok, his TW should be 92. 96 is too high.

He's a very good player, but till now he hasn't begun to live up to his ability.

He doesn't create enough danger to merit current value.

Damn, annoying


Honestly, do you watch any Bayerns game at all ? how many Bayern's matches do you watch per season? and if you do are those matches only at UCL level? judging a player stats only by a couple good/bad games is not how we do things in PSD.

You keep saying 92 is too high because he can't be in the all time ranks, wich is clearly only your opinion, while a lot of people think different than you and we mostly agree that that 96 in TW is deserved, and will be deserved till Thiago is not longer that good in that area.


Disagreeing is one thing but you were quick to make assumptions over what I was saying, so I was flippant it was intentional.

I watch Bayern play, and the original post is exactly my takeaway, and for good reason. He likes touching the ball, more than he helps others.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara

Postby furymaker » 2020 Jan 20, 23:40

What is your actual point? Teamwork is value based on how supportive his movements are, and he is easily on the best in the world at that, he has so many touches because he opens himself up in good positions to get the ball, he would do that in any team, henderson does it in Liverpool, obviously not to this extent because Thiago is a class above, Jorginho does it in Chelsea, Pjanic in Juve, Modric and Kroos in Real, Busquets, Arthur in Barca and so on.

He is worthy of that value, easily


And when it comes to his ATT value, its already at a quite low value for someone who is pretty good and dangerous at lob and through passes, but due to his role in team and way his team plays (which automatically means opponents sit in a low block and defend) means he doesnt have many chances to do so, not only that, but he has 2 offensive wingers on the sides and a classic #10 in front of him.


Also what is helping others supposed to mean? He does a shitton of defensive work, he is always among players who cover most ground and he is the one controlling flow of the game, what else is he supposed to do to satisfy you?
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Re: Thiago Alcântara

Postby Whoah10115 » 2020 Jan 21, 01:15

furymaker wrote:What is your actual point? Teamwork is value based on how supportive his movements are, and he is easily on the best in the world at that, he has so many touches because he opens himself up in good positions to get the ball, he would do that in any team, henderson does it in Liverpool, obviously not to this extent because Thiago is a class above, Jorginho does it in Chelsea, Pjanic in Juve, Modric and Kroos in Real, Busquets, Arthur in Barca and so on.

He is worthy of that value, easily


And when it comes to his ATT value, its already at a quite low value for someone who is pretty good and dangerous at lob and through passes, but due to his role in team and way his team plays (which automatically means opponents sit in a low block and defend) means he doesnt have many chances to do so, not only that, but he has 2 offensive wingers on the sides and a classic #10 in front of him.


Also what is helping others supposed to mean? He does a shitton of defensive work, he is always among players who cover most ground and he is the one controlling flow of the game, what else is he supposed to do to satisfy you?



His TW is too high.

His DEF is also too high.

As I mentioned before (again, why no one can read the words as they're written), maybe his ATT is fine and his AGG could be lower. I think BOTH could drop, but I can accept the ATT where it is. AGG should drop. I said that, made a point of how no one wanted to discuss, so now I'm saying it again.

He runs a lot but his DEF is not 69, I don't think. But whatever, I didn't make the argument anyway.

His TW is just not a 96. If you wanna argue it, I'll say you can't compare him to Jorginho who is CLEARLY better. He's not a red zone TW player. I understand what the stat is but I'm not giving him 96 because he receives a lot of passes. 92 is good, because his TW isn't as good as David Silva's.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara

Postby Akephalos » 2020 Jan 21, 01:51

DEF too high? you defintely don't watch enough Bayern games to say such a thing
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Re: Thiago Alcântara

Postby Akephalos » 2020 Feb 25, 22:29

motm imho today against Chelsea. He had a perfect match, his vision is just spectacular, the way he supports by either poking and tackling, he uses his TW to be always the perfect choice for a pass and his accuracy on long passes was just spot on. He is candidate for a little raise in DEF, LPA/LPS in my eyes.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara

Postby furymaker » 2020 Feb 26, 22:26

as amazing as his playmaking and control of the game is, man he was outstanding defensively yesterday, and has been so impressive defensively for few seasons now, went from attacking midfielder, to central controller to a deep sitting playmaking midfielder thats basically a box to box destroyer, probably one of the most complete midfielders in modern game.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara

Postby sunsaegnim » 2020 Feb 26, 23:34

Match vs Chelsea: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WfWA5b ... xiyDn/view

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