Stefan de Vrij


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Stefan de Vrij

Postby PES Stats Database » 2010 Aug 22, 13:35

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Re: Stefan de Vrij

Postby OlympiaCore » 2019 Oct 03, 21:24

FoxBatS wrote:
There are no arguments supporting this, it is posted from another site, and seems you view 89 defense at CB as not elite? If we take out Kompany since he is a player/coach we have 10 CBs rated higher than him at the position in the whole world. If I were to entertain this please tell me how him having 88 on PES 2020 and 89 on PSD for defending makes him underrated. We have a lot of discussion on the player and this contributes nothing to that and merely calls for an update based off his rating in the game. He is clearly a classy CB and is highly rated by this site.


i think ball winning is a little low also his jump, about his defense i see him in the low orange zone.

Defenders in a 3 center backs formation look better than they really are, his defence is by no means orange
Last edited by OlympiaCore on 2019 Oct 04, 18:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stefan de Vrij

Postby anOKguy » 2019 Oct 04, 12:27

FoxBatS wrote:
There are no arguments supporting this, it is posted from another site, and seems you view 89 defense at CB as not elite? If we take out Kompany since he is a player/coach we have 10 CBs rated higher than him at the position in the whole world. If I were to entertain this please tell me how him having 88 on PES 2020 and 89 on PSD for defending makes him underrated. We have a lot of discussion on the player and this contributes nothing to that and merely calls for an update based off his rating in the game. He is clearly a classy CB and is highly rated by this site.


i think ball winning is a little low also his jump, about his defense i see him in the low orange zone.

Thank you! Sorry for the little harsh tone earlier. It is always best to try and include a little explanation when asking for a change on a player that has a good amount of eyes on him. In regards to ball winning, you bring up a point worth considering! Thank you :)
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Re: Stefan de Vrij

Postby jurgens » 2019 Oct 04, 17:10

FoxBatS wrote:
There are no arguments supporting this, it is posted from another site, and seems you view 89 defense at CB as not elite? If we take out Kompany since he is a player/coach we have 10 CBs rated higher than him at the position in the whole world. If I were to entertain this please tell me how him having 88 on PES 2020 and 89 on PSD for defending makes him underrated. We have a lot of discussion on the player and this contributes nothing to that and merely calls for an update based off his rating in the game. He is clearly a classy CB and is highly rated by this site.


i think ball winning is a little low also his jump, about his defense i see him in the low orange zone.




I always thought he was a really good CB every time I saw him at Lazio, but, I had no idea he was this good. I'd see him bossing in every game I watched of him, but not really pay that much attention, I'd just see him shut down someone and think, wow, that was really clean, really committed. But it's hard to get a proper profile of a player, especially a CB who most of their work goes unseen, in sporadic viewing. So I didn't really understand what inter were getting until I had the chance to see him much more regularly. He's just a different breed of a defender, truth is, he's better than Skriniar, and right now, he's better than Godin too.

The comparison with Skriniar is a great one to show their contrasting styles and abilities, and not to mention, a dream partnership. Skriniar is a freak, he's an absolute monster of a player. Skriniar just overwhelms everyone, he's so dominant when he comes out and jockeys people... he's just watching, watching, then he'll go right leg or left leg with the tackle, and when he does, he just shuts his opponents down. And if he doesn't win the ball right away, you are basically colliding with a brick wall, that's fast and relentless, and ridiculously good at sticking a leg out and plucking the ball from you. It's not just his raw physicality, his understanding of getting to the ball is just something else.

de Vrij is very different, he doesn't have Skriniars physical prowess, in fact, he's quite handicapped in that department. He's slow, while he can get decent top speed once he gets going, that takes too much time, he's too lanky, so he's slow in his first steps and even though he's somewhat deft for a lanky guy, hes is still a lanky guy and suffers from a lack of dependable agility. You wouldn't really know it to watch him though, he doesn't really show much, if any, signs of weakness, because he is extremely intelligent. He doesn't play outside of his limitations, he plays within them, fully aware of what they are and compensates for them excellently. He can't jockey people like Skriniar, he doesn't have the physical nimbleness to get a second or third chance (regularly) like Skriniar, so when he goes for the ball, he commits. When I say he commits, I mean he goes at that ball, every ball, like his life depends on it. He basically makes sure, that there is no second chances, and he doesn't give a damn about what happens to himself physically, he goes at everything with absolute certainty.

If you consider what inters defense was last year, the back pairing was solid, but a defense is far more than that, and that team as a unit, was not good defensively, brozo working his ass off, while vecino was in no mans land all the time, they got exposed to bad situations pretty regularly. But in spite of that, de Vrij was only dribbled 7 times last year, and only committed 13 fouls. When you consider his physical deficits, this is beyond impressive. Skriniar, for example, was dribbled 22 times and Koulibalyy 17, Skriniar committing 44 fouls along the way, Koulibaly 49. This highlights the awareness of de Vrij, he isn't putting himself in situations where he may be caught off guard, he knows those limits, the negatives that can come from it. And while both Kouibilay and Skriniar have god-tier physicality, you'd expect that to mean they have to resort to fouls less often than de Vrij, but it's the other way around,, percentage-wise, de vrij is fouling 20% less than the other two on his attempts. Like I said, he has the know-how, awareness and absolute commitment.

As I said, at the start, he's a different breed of defender. He's methodical, he's aware of everything, he moves with purpose and certainty.... not just running at everything he sees because someone has the ball, he plays like an old school wall.

In recent years inter have actually had quite a lot of very nice defenders, Campagnaro (pre injur), Miranda, Skriniar, but none have been able to give inters back that solidarity that he has. All pretty great physically, but none having the awareness, the know-how, the teamwork that he has. He is a true defensive leader, it's not Godin marshaling the backline at inter, it's de Vrij, and with good reason.

While I talked about his physical failings, and how he doesn't let them affect him much, I forgot to mention his strength. It's kind of hard to rate, he's not that strong in duels where he needs to use his body for an extend amount of time, such as tussling... his lack of agility and acceleration can see that he can't use his force as much as he'd like, but when he goes for a tackle, the initial attempt is with so much commitment and force, it's actually very strong, a wall that's shutting you down before you have a chance.

His passing is also quite good, he's not looking to really play deep grounded passes, but he has more than functional accuracy to just distribute simply from the back, and make the occasional high level pass too. But his long passing is excellent, huge speed and pretty great precision. He isn't like say, Boateng or Bonucci who will look to play past the last man, but he'll pick out a free man on the wing regularly, pretty great accuracy all round, I'd put him maybe 2 points over VVD in this regard.

Skriniar and de Vrij last year were great, but the team was an absolute mess, under Conte, that's completely changed. Sensi+barrela add the overage that was sorely lacking last year, and Conte has given the team a structure and identity that was sorely needed. I'll give de Vrij a bit of an update, his set is pretty accurate, but it doesn't highlight the sort of player he is well enough. We have a new name for defense "Defensive awareness" and there couldn't be anything apter to sum up de Vrij as a player.
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Re: Stefan de Vrij

Postby royvd » 2019 Oct 05, 14:15

jurgens wrote:
FoxBatS wrote:
There are no arguments supporting this, it is posted from another site, and seems you view 89 defense at CB as not elite? If we take out Kompany since he is a player/coach we have 10 CBs rated higher than him at the position in the whole world. If I were to entertain this please tell me how him having 88 on PES 2020 and 89 on PSD for defending makes him underrated. We have a lot of discussion on the player and this contributes nothing to that and merely calls for an update based off his rating in the game. He is clearly a classy CB and is highly rated by this site.


i think ball winning is a little low also his jump, about his defense i see him in the low orange zone.




I always thought he was a really good CB every time I saw him at Lazio, but, I had no idea he was this good. I'd see him bossing in every game I watched of him, but not really pay that much attention, I'd just see him shut down someone and think, wow, that was really clean, really committed. But it's hard to get a proper profile of a player, especially a CB who most of their work goes unseen, in sporadic viewing. So I didn't really understand what inter were getting until I had the chance to see him much more regularly. He's just a different breed of a defender, truth is, he's better than Skriniar, and right now, he's better than Godin too.

The comparison with Skriniar is a great one to show their contrasting styles and abilities, and not to mention, a dream partnership. Skriniar is a freak, he's an absolute monster of a player. Skriniar just overwhelms everyone, he's so dominant when he comes out and jockeys people... he's just watching, watching, then he'll go right leg or left leg with the tackle, and when he does, he just shuts his opponents down. And if he doesn't win the ball right away, you are basically colliding with a brick wall, that's fast and relentless, and ridiculously good at sticking a leg out and plucking the ball from you. It's not just his raw physicality, his understanding of getting to the ball is just something else.

de Vrij is very different, he doesn't have Skriniars physical prowess, in fact, he's quite handicapped in that department. He's slow, while he can get decent top speed once he gets going, that takes too much time, he's too lanky, so he's slow in his first steps and even though he's somewhat deft for a lanky guy, hes is still a lanky guy and suffers from a lack of dependable agility. You wouldn't really know it to watch him though, he doesn't really show much, if any, signs of weakness, because he is extremely intelligent. He doesn't play outside of his limitations, he plays within them, fully aware of what they are and compensates for them excellently. He can't jockey people like Skriniar, he doesn't have the physical nimbleness to get a second or third chance (regularly) like Skriniar, so when he goes for the ball, he commits. When I say he commits, I mean he goes at that ball, every ball, like his life depends on it. He basically makes sure, that there is no second chances, and he doesn't give a damn about what happens to himself physically, he goes at everything with absolute certainty.

If you consider what inters defense was last year, the back pairing was solid, but a defense is far more than that, and that team as a unit, was not good defensively, brozo working his ass off, while vecino was in no mans land all the time, they got exposed to bad situations pretty regularly. But in spite of that, de Vrij was only dribbled 7 times last year, and only committed 13 fouls. When you consider his physical deficits, this is beyond impressive. Skriniar, for example, was dribbled 22 times and Koulibalyy 17, Skriniar committing 44 fouls along the way, Koulibaly 49. This highlights the awareness of de Vrij, he isn't putting himself in situations where he may be caught off guard, he knows those limits, the negatives that can come from it. And while both Kouibilay and Skriniar have god-tier physicality, you'd expect that to mean they have to resort to fouls less often than de Vrij, but it's the other way around,, percentage-wise, de vrij is fouling 20% less than the other two on his attempts. Like I said, he has the know-how, awareness and absolute commitment.

As I said, at the start, he's a different breed of defender. He's methodical, he's aware of everything, he moves with purpose and certainty.... not just running at everything he sees because someone has the ball, he plays like an old school wall.

In recent years inter have actually had quite a lot of very nice defenders, Campagnaro (pre injur), Miranda, Skriniar, but none have been able to give inters back that solidarity that he has. All pretty great physically, but none having the awareness, the know-how, the teamwork that he has. He is a true defensive leader, it's not Godin marshaling the backline at inter, it's de Vrij, and with good reason.

While I talked about his physical failings, and how he doesn't let them affect him much, I forgot to mention his strength. It's kind of hard to rate, he's not that strong in duels where he needs to use his body for an extend amount of time, such as tussling... his lack of agility and acceleration can see that he can't use his force as much as he'd like, but when he goes for a tackle, the initial attempt is with so much commitment and force, it's actually very strong, a wall that's shutting you down before you have a chance.

His passing is also quite good, he's not looking to really play deep grounded passes, but he has more than functional accuracy to just distribute simply from the back, and make the occasional high level pass too. But his long passing is excellent, huge speed and pretty great precision. He isn't like say, Boateng or Bonucci who will look to play past the last man, but he'll pick out a free man on the wing regularly, pretty great accuracy all round, I'd put him maybe 2 points over VVD in this regard.

Skriniar and de Vrij last year were great, but the team was an absolute mess, under Conte, that's completely changed. Sensi+barrela add the overage that was sorely lacking last year, and Conte has given the team a structure and identity that was sorely needed. I'll give de Vrij a bit of an update, his set is pretty accurate, but it doesn't highlight the sort of player he is well enough. We have a new name for defense "Defensive awareness" and there couldn't be anything apter to sum up de Vrij as a player.


Great post, thanks for sharing your insights which I think are certainly justified. Looking at his overall set at the moment I do think that De Vrij is overpowered. What you point out clearly is that is game is not without flaws as for example he is not always that strong in duels. His current set with 87 Physical Contact does make him incredibly strong in all duels and combined with his superb defensive traits make him one of the best defenders in the world, which in my view he is not - he is slightly below that top category. Also in the Dutch NT it is De Ligt who keeps De Vrij from the starting 11. I certainly can see that De Ligt came from an incredible season but I think it would be nice if both set of stats represent the differences between the two defenders. The current sets make De Vrij better in all technical and passing aspects, defensive traits; and De Ligt slightly faster and +1 Strength. I think the differences in qualities should be more explicit and I think De Vrij's stats should be toned down slightly. Also looking at the comparison with Bonucci, De Vrij is too close to him in terms of technical / passing stats. Perhaps Bonucci's passing could be upped slightly but this is something to consider in my view.
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Re: Stefan de Vrij

Postby jurgens » 2019 Oct 05, 17:10

Dutch NT it is De Ligt who keeps De Vrij from the starting 11


Well, thats only natural... he is the prodigy, the hype for him is unreal. Theres no way de Vrij gets in the starting 11, no one cares about the old talent, who slowly matured in serie a, no one cares about serie a. It's political, no reflection on eithers ability.

The current sets make De Vrij better in all technical and passing aspects


I don't know what to tell you, I havn't really even touched his technical stats in the upgrade. de Vrij is pretty renowned for his technical quality before he was even much of a CB, his saving grace was always his technicality and ability to play out from the back.

de Ligt is technically sound, but he does nothing with it, nothing. I've gone through at least a dozen of his matches looking for something of a higher level quality, it's hard to find, he keeps it to basics, nothing much more. He could be more technically capable than de Vrij, but hes not making use of it, just passes to the man next to him over and over, cleanly and with precision, but nothing much more than that. He really just wants to pass and get the ball back, , move and repeat. Which makes sense if you consider how Ajax play, highly possession orientated, short fast and simple passing. Playing 60 yard diagnols from the back doesn't really fit in with that ethos, so I guess hes much more reserved with it. Though, de vrij is not making as much use of it nowadays aswell, but he has proven it in the past.

The current sets make De Vrij better in defensive trait


Which is really true? What is De ligt better at defensively? He relies on his physicality, hes rash, uncoordinated, and quite frankly, looks amateurish at Juve, it wouldn't make sense with a 20 year old to be a master of anything defensively, hes extremely inexperienced, the first season in a high tier league. De Ligt has insane potential, because of his well roundness, but hes not there yet, not at all. We can say hes much, much more responsive, as it's his style... thats the double-edged sword though, its not necessarily better when it creates issues as well as solves them. But, he could have a boost in response, sure.

The current sets make De Vrij better in defensive trait


And much worse physically, he has big handicaps physically, that agility and acceleration is a big deal. We can boost De ligt further in this regard though, he is under-rated in speed.

I can understand with a reduc in De vrijs techncaility, as he doesn't use it that much these days, I don't really agree with it though as it's a standout part of his game, and hes known for it, (being used less under Conte though, and less in general at inter with brozo). Well, long passing at least, as I said hes mostly simple with short passing, until he gets a real opportunity for a long grounded connection pass, but those are rare, but hes proven his quality in it time and time again. Hes right where he should be imo, just above VVD. Bonucci could use a boost though, hes quite low for his capabilities, same with Boateng.
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Re: Stefan de Vrij

Postby royvd » 2019 Oct 06, 09:13

jurgens wrote:
Dutch NT it is De Ligt who keeps De Vrij from the starting 11


Well, thats only natural... he is the prodigy, the hype for him is unreal. Theres no way de Vrij gets in the starting 11, no one cares about the old talent, who slowly matured in serie a, no one cares about serie a. It's political, no reflection on eithers ability.

The current sets make De Vrij better in all technical and passing aspects


I don't know what to tell you, I havn't really even touched his technical stats in the upgrade. de Vrij is pretty renowned for his technical quality before he was even much of a CB, his saving grace was always his technicality and ability to play out from the back.

de Ligt is technically sound, but he does nothing with it, nothing. I've gone through at least a dozen of his matches looking for something of a higher level quality, it's hard to find, he keeps it to basics, nothing much more. He could be more technically capable than de Vrij, but hes not making use of it, just passes to the man next to him over and over, cleanly and with precision, but nothing much more than that. He really just wants to pass and get the ball back, , move and repeat. Which makes sense if you consider how Ajax play, highly possession orientated, short fast and simple passing. Playing 60 yard diagnols from the back doesn't really fit in with that ethos, so I guess hes much more reserved with it. Though, de vrij is not making as much use of it nowadays aswell, but he has proven it in the past.

The current sets make De Vrij better in defensive trait


Which is really true? What is De ligt better at defensively? He relies on his physicality, hes rash, uncoordinated, and quite frankly, looks amateurish at Juve, it wouldn't make sense with a 20 year old to be a master of anything defensively, hes extremely inexperienced, the first season in a high tier league. De Ligt has insane potential, because of his well roundness, but hes not there yet, not at all. We can say hes much, much more responsive, as it's his style... thats the double-edged sword though, its not necessarily better when it creates issues as well as solves them. But, he could have a boost in response, sure.

The current sets make De Vrij better in defensive trait


And much worse physically, he has big handicaps physically, that agility and acceleration is a big deal. We can boost De ligt further in this regard though, he is under-rated in speed.

I can understand with a reduc in De vrijs techncaility, as he doesn't use it that much these days, I don't really agree with it though as it's a standout part of his game, and hes known for it, (being used less under Conte though, and less in general at inter with brozo). Well, long passing at least, as I said hes mostly simple with short passing, until he gets a real opportunity for a long grounded connection pass, but those are rare, but hes proven his quality in it time and time again. Hes right where he should be imo, just above VVD. Bonucci could use a boost though, hes quite low for his capabilities, same with Boateng.


Thanks for your comments and I certainly can live with everything you point out. I think my comment mainly comes from the view that in my mind the current set (overall) puts him too close to De Ligt and Bonucci in these aspects, and that I think his overall value as a defender is slightly too high as it makes him a top 10 defender in the world. I certainly haven't followed him that closely in the last two years so it is more a feeling than raises questions than something I can comment on based on observations. Happy to follow your insights and thanks for the elaborate feedback.
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Re: Stefan de Vrij

Postby anOKguy » 2019 Oct 06, 15:05

royvd wrote:
jurgens wrote:
Dutch NT it is De Ligt who keeps De Vrij from the starting 11


Well, thats only natural... he is the prodigy, the hype for him is unreal. Theres no way de Vrij gets in the starting 11, no one cares about the old talent, who slowly matured in serie a, no one cares about serie a. It's political, no reflection on eithers ability.

The current sets make De Vrij better in all technical and passing aspects


I don't know what to tell you, I havn't really even touched his technical stats in the upgrade. de Vrij is pretty renowned for his technical quality before he was even much of a CB, his saving grace was always his technicality and ability to play out from the back.

de Ligt is technically sound, but he does nothing with it, nothing. I've gone through at least a dozen of his matches looking for something of a higher level quality, it's hard to find, he keeps it to basics, nothing much more. He could be more technically capable than de Vrij, but hes not making use of it, just passes to the man next to him over and over, cleanly and with precision, but nothing much more than that. He really just wants to pass and get the ball back, , move and repeat. Which makes sense if you consider how Ajax play, highly possession orientated, short fast and simple passing. Playing 60 yard diagnols from the back doesn't really fit in with that ethos, so I guess hes much more reserved with it. Though, de vrij is not making as much use of it nowadays aswell, but he has proven it in the past.

The current sets make De Vrij better in defensive trait


Which is really true? What is De ligt better at defensively? He relies on his physicality, hes rash, uncoordinated, and quite frankly, looks amateurish at Juve, it wouldn't make sense with a 20 year old to be a master of anything defensively, hes extremely inexperienced, the first season in a high tier league. De Ligt has insane potential, because of his well roundness, but hes not there yet, not at all. We can say hes much, much more responsive, as it's his style... thats the double-edged sword though, its not necessarily better when it creates issues as well as solves them. But, he could have a boost in response, sure.

The current sets make De Vrij better in defensive trait


And much worse physically, he has big handicaps physically, that agility and acceleration is a big deal. We can boost De ligt further in this regard though, he is under-rated in speed.

I can understand with a reduc in De vrijs techncaility, as he doesn't use it that much these days, I don't really agree with it though as it's a standout part of his game, and hes known for it, (being used less under Conte though, and less in general at inter with brozo). Well, long passing at least, as I said hes mostly simple with short passing, until he gets a real opportunity for a long grounded connection pass, but those are rare, but hes proven his quality in it time and time again. Hes right where he should be imo, just above VVD. Bonucci could use a boost though, hes quite low for his capabilities, same with Boateng.


Thanks for your comments and I certainly can live with everything you point out. I think my comment mainly comes from the view that in my mind the current set (overall) puts him too close to De Ligt and Bonucci in these aspects, and that I think his overall value as a defender is slightly too high as it makes him a top 10 defender in the world. I certainly haven't followed him that closely in the last two years so it is more a feeling than raises questions than something I can comment on based on observations. Happy to follow your insights and thanks for the elaborate feedback.

jurgens wrote:
Well, thats only natural... he is the prodigy, the hype for him is unreal. Theres no way de Vrij gets in the starting 11, no one cares about the old talent, who slowly matured in serie a, no one cares about serie a. It's political, no reflection on eithers ability.

Ok Alex Jones let's not get too ahead of it with the conspiracy talk :? (kidding, but I can never resist an Alex Jones joke)

I want to start off and say the initial analysis by Jurgens is part of what makes PSD great... that if we even forget the PES game, there is top notch football analysis. The piece covers every bit of the player and is one of the most thoroughly laid out examinations of a player in a long time. Stuff like that takes a ton of time and effort, which I can attest to after making some ridiculously long posts on everything Oliver Norwood before. This is where the best parts of the site are found in my opinion.

However, there are a few things that Royvd brought up that, while I do not agree with some of the stuff, like the comparison to De Ligt defensively since we have been noticing his errors more blatantly (and probably should be accounted for in some adjustments to his set), are valid points that went unaddressed and I think should be discussed with the set or at least fleshed out a bit more. Note, I am not an expert in the player and more taking what is said and translating to the set.

Note: all quotations are taken from Jurgens' posts.

"While I talked about his physical failings, and how he doesn't let them affect him much, I forgot to mention his strength. It's kind of hard to rate, he's not that strong in duels where he needs to use his body for an extend amount of time, such as tussling... his lack of agility and acceleration can see that he can't use his force as much as he'd like, but when he goes for a tackle, the initial attempt is with so much commitment and force, it's actually very strong, a wall that's shutting you down before you have a chance." - since the start of October, his bb got updated from 85 to 87 following the additional comment that "de Vrij is very different, he doesn't have Skriniars physical prowess, in fact, he's quite handicapped in that department" which I would just like to understand the tackling strength vs typical strength with since that is a thing I have run into when trying to rate some players. They're forceful and when they go in they win, but in all other instances of strength they come up lacking, my guess would be that this is probably not bb but please tell me if I need to adjust that. To verify though that is more of a strong tackler than a strong player situation? If he was actually a strong player he would be showing it in the tussles and there are surely other ways to show that he is a good tackler I would imagine. I could very well be misunderstanding that part so please correct me if I am! :D Also, words can be ambiguous and vague so that’s very much worth remembering.

“He's slow, while he can get decent top speed once he gets going, that takes too much time, he's too lanky, so he's slow in his first steps and even though he's somewhat deft for a lanky guy, hes is still a lanky guy and suffers from a lack of dependable agility.” – there is only a 3 point difference in top speed and acceleration (which is still in the 70s). From the description wouldn’t his acc be some points below where it is at, probably in the mid 60s? Also, since being told to crack down on this, moderators have been giving big gangly guys lower agility and maybe that could apply here too? Since you highlight his lack of agility in multiple parts of the post it seems to be something worth drilling down on, but also considering the majority of players with that description are given lower values as well as acceleration.

"And while both Kouibilay and Skriniar have god-tier physicality, you'd expect that to mean they have to resort to fouls less often than de Vrij, but it's the other way around,, percentage-wise, de vrij is fouling 20% less than the other two on his attempts. Like I said, he has the know-how, awareness and absolute commitment." - this would indicate a very smart defender as everything written about him seems to confirm as does the defense rating he has been given. However, I disagree with the expectation that due to their size they would foul less and argue the inverse given they're more likely to have to hold that back and given how many silly little fouls are given and the fact that their superiority physically would put them in positions where they overpower smaller players and make stuff that looks like fouls. Basically, they have to hold back at times to not put players on their ass. Further, he can also be taking better angles since I know that Skriniar and Koulibaly are very aggressive defenders, maybe they are lower than they currently are at since they give up these amount of fouls instead of pushing him further up in terms of defense given the players in other leagues when we compare defense values?

"I don't know what to tell you, I havn't really even touched his technical stats in the upgrade." - you updated 3 of 4 passing stats by several points… :?

Conclusion: the highlights of him as a player seem to be accurately reflected in the set post-update. As you said “we have a new name for defense "Defensive awareness" and there couldn't be anything apter to sum up de Vrij as a player.” However, it might be a few of the weaknesses that you laid out and I read that did not seem to be reflected in the stats to the degree that most mods have been prodded to lower, and I think that is at the core of some of Royvd’s comments when he talked about how strength compares to De Ligt and passing to Bonucci. To me, that issue of scaling was important and I feel that the answer instead of just pushing them up would probably be viewing the one guy not the many and adjusting on that. The same can be said about other stats he has that are not really shown. I think there is a middle ground between you guys on some of the valid points and that this should be worth considering that I think we should bring back. Again, I could be grasping at straws and I really appreciate the post, but just had a few little questions with it. Nothing big! Honestly, it could be word choice that confused me and be worth brushing off entirely. :lol:

Edit in light of Royvd’s last post: yeah that’s basically confirming what I was asking about as well. Not top 10, this makes him top 5 even. It’s the scaling when compared to others that was something that stood out here as well _tick
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Re: Stefan de Vrij

Postby jurgens » 2019 Oct 06, 23:55

which I would just like to understand the tackling strength vs typical strength with since that is a thing I have run into when trying to rate some players. They're forceful and when they go in they win, but in all other instances of strength


if someone comes at you with all their force and speed, it's gonna be more powerful, than someone who rarely commits. de Vrij is strong, but he lacks equilibrium, so when an ideal situation isn't met for applying force, players like him tend to lose dominance if they aren't in the perfect physical situation. The opposite is true for players with low center of gravity, it's so much easier for them to move their bodies into a more beneficial position to apply their force, and make mirco-adjusments to withstand pressure and counet-act the negatives their opponent is putting their body under.


From the description wouldn’t his acc be some points below where it is at, probably in the mid 60s? Also, since being told to crack down on this, moderators have been giving big gangly guys lower agility and maybe that could apply here too? Since you highlight his lack of agility in multiple parts of the post it seems to be something worth drilling down on, but also considering the majority of players with that description are given lower values as well as acceleration.


Hes around where he should be, hes slow for a top CB, but hes not horrendous, but it's a noticeable handicap. In todays game, top CB's are all approaching, or around the 80s for speed, being out of green is a big deal in itself.

However, I disagree with the expectation that due to their size they would foul less and argue the inverse given they're more likely to ha


I didn't mention their size, I said their god-tier physicality. Meaning, the well-roundedness and overwhelmingness of their physicality. Skriniar for example, when you have that much control and precision, and domiance at all times in confrontations, you don't need to foul, as you can just win, over and over, your opponents can't match you. Skriniar actually fucks up alot, but his physcality is so immense that he can usually compensate for his mistakes and correct them. When youd don't have this ability to completly overwhelm in all situations, or get a second or third attempt, fouls are much, much more likely. De Vrij manages to maintain lower, because he usually gets it right, because of judgment and timing, so he doesn't mess up and make a mistake and draw a foul, or get forced into one.


I don't know what to tell you, I havn't really even touched his technical stats in the upgrade." - you updated 3 of 4 passing stats by several points


All that's been touched is his long passing really, his spa got a small +1, his tech, da and sps are all basically the same, hes always been highly rated technically. My bad on the long passing though, I did actually forget I updated lpa, when I'm updating a player on PSD, im usually just performing automation transfering old values from my OF to our editor.


I read that did not seem to be reflected in the stats to the degree that most mods have been prodded to lower


Lower when needed, not just for the sake of it.


I feel that the answer instead of just pushing them up would probably be viewing the one guy not the many and adjusting on that.


Values represent tiers of ability when I assign a value, it's assigned based on where that player's abilities fit within that tier. We have thousands of players, performances shift, as do our standards. Players can get left behind, when this is brought to my attention, I'll ammend it. Players aren't adjusted for the sake of it to match other, but to put them into tiers more fitting of their abilities.

For example, CB long passing


75, usually someone who will play dinks and mild distribution on occasion

approaching 80's is someone who is seen more regularly picking out players further up the field, usually on the wrings.

81-84 would be for players who are very consistent at making those extremely long passes to players on the wings, consistently, and showing more invention.

85/86/87 would be representing extrenly high tier passing, through balls from miles back, picking out players in more congested areas, much more "creative" in their passing. Examples of this in our ratings would be, hummels and david luiz, and should also include Boateng and Bonucci.


this makes him top 5 even


Not at all, at all. It's rare to find a top CB in white speed and especially acceleration unless they are in their 30's and far past their prime. De vrij is beaten out by most top CB's by 3-6 points in TS, some even higher. That is a massive deal, having one physical weakness is alright, if you can compensate it through well-roundedness and massive strengths, but having several is a killer, now you are entering niche uses, instead of simply superior.
Koulibaly for example is very unagile, but he compensates for an insane combo of speed and strength. Sule is another, two detriments, but the top speed and balance make up for it. De Vrij is 3 handicaps and one strength physically, and the strength is not high enough, or even close to make up for it.

de Vrijs set makes him a CB that is in real trouble of being exposed, in a multitude of ways, but hes a leader and defenisvely astute, thats a niche role, an extremely powerful role, but one you may not want in an ideal starting line up.

Just a few examples, Giménez overall speed and physicality means he has basically no weakness, not the strongest, but it doesn't matter, that sort of well roundness greatly minimizes the number of negative situations the player will encounter. Thiago silva is much weaker, but the all round physicality is still so high, it means again, minimization of negatives. You have to understand, strength is great, as long as it can be used, without real speed, and the ability to apply it, it greatly loses its worth.

VVD
Skriniar
Giménez
Thiago Silva
Laporte
Romagnoli
Marquinhos
Chiellini
Vertonghen
Koulibaly
Kompany

Are all players currently superior to him in our ratings. There is quite a few others I would place ahead of him in our ratings, simply due to their overwleming physicality, such as Varane.
de Vrij falls into a similar tier as Hummels and Godin, huge strengths, but big weaknesses. Having one or two very high values does not make you a top 3 player, it's the combination of everything together, that ultimately decides your place in that hierarchy.
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Re: Stefan de Vrij

Postby anOKguy » 2019 Oct 07, 04:54

jurgens wrote:
which I would just like to understand the tackling strength vs typical strength with since that is a thing I have run into when trying to rate some players. They're forceful and when they go in they win, but in all other instances of strength


if someone comes at you with all their force and speed, it's gonna be more powerful, than someone who rarely commits. de Vrij is strong, but he lacks equilibrium, so when an ideal situation isn't met for applying force, players like him tend to lose dominance if they aren't in the perfect physical situation. The opposite is true for players with low center of gravity, it's so much easier for them to move their bodies into a more beneficial position to apply their force, and make mirco-adjusments to withstand pressure and counet-act the negatives their opponent is putting their body under.


Got it, this makes sense. It seemed a bit that he was not strong but then that later he is strong. All good now _tick
A stat dealing with tackling specifically would allow for differentiations in the future, as a possible idea just floated out there.

From the description wouldn’t his acc be some points below where it is at, probably in the mid 60s? Also, since being told to crack down on this, moderators have been giving big gangly guys lower agility and maybe that could apply here too? Since you highlight his lack of agility in multiple parts of the post it seems to be something worth drilling down on, but also considering the majority of players with that description are given lower values as well as acceleration.


Hes around where he should be, hes slow for a top CB, but hes not horrendous, but it's a noticeable handicap. In todays game, top CB's are all approaching, or around the 80s for speed, being out of green is a big deal in itself.

I disagree with this completely as a reason why he should stay in the 70s since there are myriad of top CBs with poor acceleration. You listed the top physical specimens at the position and this seems to be a smarts based player more than a physical one. This makes it seem that since he’s a top player he can’t fall below a certain level. Plus, only a 3 point differentiation with top speed from that description just doesn’t seem like it’s worded properly then. Finally, is not really that low of a value if you search other CBs above 85 defense and their accelerations (which should not be the metric). Pique is an example that comes to mind as a counter for how they can have low acceleration values. It just seems to set these arbitrary standards for what a top player can’t be below, which goes against a lot of what we do.

However, I disagree with the expectation that due to their size they would foul less and argue the inverse given they're more likely to ha


I didn't mention their size, I said their god-tier physicality. Meaning, the well-roundedness and overwhelmingness of their physicality. Skriniar for example, when you have that much control and precision, and domiance at all times in confrontations, you don't need to foul, as you can just win, over and over, your opponents can't match you. Skriniar actually fucks up alot, but his physcality is so immense that he can usually compensate for his mistakes and correct them. When youd don't have this ability to completly overwhelm in all situations, or get a second or third attempt, fouls are much, much more likely. De Vrij manages to maintain lower, because he usually gets it right, because of judgment and timing, so he doesn't mess up and make a mistake and draw a foul, or get forced into one.


Ok to clean it up a little, that was me saying size was more supposed to be about their strength. They’re super strong and can bully. However, that does not translate to high defensive abilities if they’re fouling and making mistakes but only a fraction lower than a super clean and overall great defender. We have all been told to rate this as lower when they’re fouling a lot. Osvaldo Alonso in the MLS is a perfect example of this.

If Skriniar fucks up a lot why is that not better reflected with noticeable handicaps? Same thing with my De Ligt point that wasn’t addressed since he is having clear weaknesses that aren’t shown. That’s the more valid point there since De Vrij seems very intelligent and actually defensively top quality. But the other guys fouling and making noticeably more mistakes leads me to believe they should not be as close to De Vrij then.

I don't know what to tell you, I havn't really even touched his technical stats in the upgrade." - you updated 3 of 4 passing stats by several points


All that's been touched is his long passing really, his spa got a small +1, his tech, da and sps are all basically the same, hes always been highly rated technically. My bad on the long passing though, I did actually forget I updated lpa, when I'm updating a player on PSD, im usually just performing automation transfering old values from my OF to our editor.


Nothing wrong with it, just wanted to make sure that point he made got verified. Nothing in it and your post did the rest. All good on this one :D

I read that did not seem to be reflected in the stats to the degree that most mods have been prodded to lower

Lower when needed, not just for the sake of it.


_tick

I feel that the answer instead of just pushing them up would probably be viewing the one guy not the many and adjusting on that.


Values represent tiers of ability when I assign a value, it's assigned based on where that player's abilities fit within that tier. We have thousands of players, performances shift, as do our standards. Players can get left behind, when this is brought to my attention, I'll ammend it. Players aren't adjusted for the sake of it to match other, but to put them into tiers more fitting of their abilities.

For example, CB long passing


75, usually someone who will play dinks and mild distribution on occasion

approaching 80's is someone who is seen more regularly picking out players further up the field, usually on the wrings.

81-84 would be for players who are very consistent at making those extremely long passes to players on the wings, consistently, and showing more invention.

85/86/87 would be representing extrenly high tier passing, through balls from miles back, picking out players in more congested areas, much more "creative" in their passing. Examples of this in our ratings would be, hummels and david luiz, and should also include Boateng and Bonucci.


This is good to have. A guide with the ranges for this would actually be greatly appreciated for some of the key technical stats per position like it!! Very helpful actually :D _tick


this makes him top 5 even


Not at all, at all. It's rare to find a top CB in white speed and especially acceleration unless they are in their 30's and far past their prime. De vrij is beaten out by most top CB's by 3-6 points in TS, some even higher. That is a massive deal, having one physical weakness is alright, if you can compensate it through well-roundedness and massive strengths, but having several is a killer, now you are entering niche uses, instead of simply superior.
Koulibaly for example is very unagile, but he compensates for an insane combo of speed and strength. Sule is another, two detriments, but the top speed and balance make up for it. De Vrij is 3 handicaps and one strength physically, and the strength is not high enough, or even close to make up for it.


87 bb is not a weakness. He’s not as physically overwhelming defender it seems but the combination of defense and technicality make him a standout player while the weak points are not even comparable to how Pique is given (higher ts but that’s it) or a Hummels/Sule. 87 bb is by no means a handicap since the average rating for bb on CBs rated with 87+ Defense is only 86.1... which he exceeds. Unless you’re saying his three strengths are the speed and agility. But then I would still say they’re not that bad in all honesty when we look at the others.
Here is how the CBs with 87+ defense average out on acceleration and agility:
Average acc: 74.1 with an average deviation of 3 points, meaning he is not a statistical anomaly or below the norm to a significant amount
Average agi: 69.35 with an average deviation of 3 points, which makes him within 0.3 points of being within the norm. So basically the most minimal amount possible.

Conclusion on this: He is below the average, but not to a statistically significant degree where he stands outside of the center of a bell curve area (ok, he does by 0.3 on one stat but we do not delve into decimals when rating so that would be rounded down since it is under 0.5 and he would not be an outlier).

de Vrijs set makes him a CB that is in real trouble of being exposed, in a multitude of ways, but hes a leader and defenisvely astute, thats a niche role, an extremely powerful role, but one you may not want in an ideal starting line up.


I would really think that’s overstated since that’s fit to be one hell of an options at your disposal to not select this. Per Mertesacher, I understand. This level of weakness not as much (clearly not Per level limitations since those are historic almost)

Just a few examples, Giménez overall speed and physicality means he has basically no weakness, not the strongest, but it doesn't matter, that sort of well roundness greatly minimizes the number of negative situations the player will encounter. Thiago silva is much weaker, but the all round physicality is still so high, it means again, minimization of negatives. You have to understand, strength is great, as long as it can be used, without real speed, and the ability to apply it, it greatly loses its worth.


Got it. Good point. This guy masks a lot with sheer intelligence doesn’t he?

VVD
Skriniar
Giménez
Thiago Silva
Laporte
Romagnoli
Marquinhos
Chiellini
Vertonghen
Koulibaly
Kompany

Are all players currently superior to him in our ratings. There is quite a few others I would place ahead of him in our ratings, simply due to their overwleming physicality, such as Varane.
de Vrij falls into a similar tier as Hummels and Godin, huge strengths, but big weaknesses. Having one or two very high values does not make you a top 3 player, it's the combination of everything together, that ultimately decides your place in that hierarchy.


I didn’t see he was taken down to 91 defense from 92 until just now. It just really don’t seem the weaknesses take him down many levels. Vinnie’s overalls would be greatly appreciated to see this stuff, but I get your point completely! VINNIE YOU ARE BEING SUMMONED!!!!
Last edited by anOKguy on 2019 Oct 07, 19:14, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Stefan de Vrij

Postby jurgens » 2019 Oct 07, 20:33

I disagree with this completely as a reason why he should stay in the 70s since there are myriad of top CBs with poor acceleration.


Acceleration is one thing, and it's almost standard in bigger players, but when the TS is good, it's compensated for, because you are still moving fast, even if you take a while to hit that top gear. When you are slow, and slow to accelerate, it's a big deal. And I mean a really fucking big deal. A slow player such as de vrij, makes a mistake, goes >>> space opens up centrally, when your TS is out of green, your chances of closing down that space in time are greatly reduced. In todays game especially for a top CB, closing down space as quickly as absolutely essential, speed is playing a bigger and bigger role. We are seeing far, far fewer walls, and much, much more players with decent to great TS.

This makes it seem that since he’s a top player he can’t fall below a certain level. Plus, only a 3 point differentiation with top speed from that description just doesn’t seem like it’s worded properly then.


Hes a top player for a reason, but hes skirting on the edges with that speed and lack of agility, top players are top players because they fall into certain perimeters, or have hugely dominant physical traits that aid them should they fall into more than one unideal physical tier. Let's say he lost 5 top speed, thats it over for him at a high level, you'd see his defense plummet, as he can no longer get anywhere quick enough. Can't be relied upon.

Plus, only a 3 point differentiation with top speed from that description just doesn’t seem like it’s worded properly then.


It just seems to set these arbitrary standards for what a top player can’t be below,


He has the values, specifically because they are what he warrants. How good or bad he is, has nothing to do with how hes rated. However, physicality is really fucking important, and as I said, with multiple handicaps, the lower you get, the far less likely you are to be a "top player", unless you have a godly physical advantage to compensate. He's handicapped, but not severely, hes outside an ideal situation, and causes exposure issues, but he can mostly compensate for them still.

If Skriniar fucks up a lot why is that not better reflected with noticeable handicaps?


They are, you remove those fuck ups, and you have a player in red defense and much higher TW, theres a reason de Vrij is higher in def, in spite of Skriniar being a very clear, monster in defense.
And inspite of those fucks up, he can usually fix them, but not always.

good to have. A guide with the ranges for this would actually be greatly appreciated for some of the key technical stats per position like it!! Very helpful actually


It's in the works, but it's being put on hold for the time being.

87 bb is not a weakness.
87 bb is by no means a handicap since the average


Yes, it's not at all. If you read my post carefully you'll see I mentioned he has 3 handicaps and one strength physically, but the strength isn't high enough to make up for it alone.
If you have one, just one insanely high stat, you fall into an outlier category. Because that one stat can be so overwhelming for opponents, that it alone, can open up a myriad of problems and be decisive. For example, orange top speed in a defender is going to mean he'll be everywhere, and losing him will be damned near impossible. De Vrij has that one strength, but it's not enough to open up a new dimension of difficulties for opponents to deal with, but it helps him, but can't compensate enough for the situations his handicaps can expose him to. Now if De Vrij was a 95 balance, then that'd be something else entirely, as now he has a strength that is so high, it alone can create massive problems for the opposition.


Pique is given (higher ts but that’s it) or a Hummels


Yes, specifically why I mentioned these. As their failings, take them way outside of that category, and thats why I brought specific attention to them, both in their 30's and well past their prime, the physical disadvantages are massive. Piques TS is actually quite good still though and its a big saving grace for him, but it's largely due to playing in Barca/spain and his technicality that hes still a high-quality player.

And just a little bit more on Hummels, even in his prime, that lack of physicality was a big fucking deal, others may argue, but imo that really stopped him being a top tier player, it was too much, too many issues, though when he was on form, he was very overwhelming nonetheless.


Sule


As I said,
having one physical weakness is alright, if you can compensate it through well-roundedness and massive strengths, but having several is a killer,


Sule having god-tier strength, and very high TS, puts him in an absolute outlier role, his low agility hurts him, as does his ACC, but those strengths are too high.


Koulibaly 76, 64


Please don't use averages for things like these, the individual stat and how they work together is what matters. That 76, 64 looks terrible, but the 94 BB and 84 TS means the overall, is absolutely god tier.


Plus, only a 3 point differentiation with top speed from that description just doesn’t seem like it’s worded properly then.



I would really think that’s overstated


The issue here is, you are putting too much stock into the words by themselves and projecting your own ideas of what these words should mean alone, rather than looking at what I say with the values I assign.
Listen, it's impossible to define what anyone means through words alone for stats, it's nebulous, that's why we use values + numbers to get that point across.

For example, I can say; "this guy is really fucking fast, he beats most CB's in duels 90% of the time"

But put a number on that? Everyone is going to project their own interpretation of what that means into a stat there. 90's, high 80's, reds? 84? 84 is well enough to beat CB's 90% of the time.
But when I say it, and then assign an 87, everything is cleared up, it's no longer ambiguous.


since that’s fit to be one hell of an options at your disposal to not select this


And thats football for you, at the opposite spectrum we have players with horrendous def/tw values being hailed as top players.
Hell, even if De Ligt wasn't the golden boy, he'd still be picked over de Vrij because of his physicality. Managers especially focus on what's obvious and clear, a player will rarely get any credit for not committing when its the best course of action. But a player that ran around at 80's TS and high 90 BB, that fucking bowling balled an opposition twice, will be hailed as fantastic, (even though 3 other times this caused his team to eat a counter)


This guy masks a lot with sheer intelligence doesn’t he?


Yes, because he isn't committing. But it still causes issues, as he can't come back quick enough when he commits and fails, or simply gets outplayed, and can't close space quick enough. Thats why I said in the deleted post, that you can easily see a player like this slip in ratings, hes about a 88-92 def, but right now and most of last year, hes in high form and not being exposed much, but as I said, hes just skirting on the edge of his physical handicaps being an issue.
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Re: Stefan de Vrij

Postby PES Stats Database » 2019 Oct 23, 19:40

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Re: Stefan de Vrij

Postby jurgens » 2019 Oct 24, 04:10

vs dortmund

3 tackles, 100% accuracy
3 interceptions
5 clearances
96 passes, 94% accuracy
1 assist

Hes doing quite good isn't he?

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