Javier Mascherano


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Javier Mascherano

Postby PES Stats Database » 2008 Dec 09, 14:09

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Last edited by vinnie on 2014 Oct 23, 09:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby Ramindbroken » 2015 Jun 15, 12:53

I agree with making another set. His first post set should be the same he has now, and the another one (in "spoiler") should be his CB set, with lower Form, MENT and TW.
Anyway, i still cant see him under Pique in DEF, because that "pile of shit" is two points above him.
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby Crisci » 2015 Jun 15, 14:46

tangent here... but it's really fucking annoying to hear people say Pique is terrible, clearly no idea how defending works. he plays the in the hardest system to defend, in a high line where his team is so attacking that he's exposed to 1v1 situations constantly, it's a ridiculously hard thing to do well and great defenders like Terry and Vertonghen have looked utter shit in that sort of system. considering that Barca actually have an incredible defensive record this season it's ridiculous really, Pique would look impervious in a side defending 20-30 yards deeper supported by Mascherano and Busquets together in midfield (the same style Mourinho/Simeone do).

Mascherano has clearly come along way as a CB, he doesn't look out of place there like he used to. of course he's wasted there but still.
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby Ramindbroken » 2015 Jun 15, 17:19

Crisci wrote:tangent here... but it's really fucking annoying to hear people say Pique is terrible, clearly no idea how defending works. he plays the in the hardest system to defend, in a high line where his team is so attacking that he's exposed to 1v1 situations constantly, it's a ridiculously hard thing to do well and great defenders like Terry and Vertonghen have looked utter shit in that sort of system. considering that Barca actually have an incredible defensive record this season it's ridiculous really, Pique would look impervious in a side defending 20-30 yards deeper supported by Mascherano and Busquets together in midfield (the same style Mourinho/Simeone do).

Mascherano has clearly come along way as a CB, he doesn't look out of place there like he used to. of course he's wasted there but still.


I was just quoting Jurgens, Masche is by far a better tackler (one of the best in the world), but i share your point, that's why i agree with Pique on 87 DEF... anyway, Masche should be higher... then it all becomes a problem, because higher DEF would be crazy for a DMF. He needs another set.
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby jurgens » 2015 Jun 15, 21:47

Crisci wrote:tangent here... but it's really fucking annoying to hear people say Pique is terrible, clearly no idea how defending works. he plays the in the hardest system to defend, in a high line where his team is so attacking that he's exposed to 1v1 situations constantly, it's a ridiculously hard thing to do well and great defenders like Terry and Vertonghen have looked utter shit in that sort of system. considering that Barca actually have an incredible defensive record this season it's ridiculous really, Pique would look impervious in a side defending 20-30 yards deeper supported by Mascherano and Busquets together in midfield (the same style Mourinho/Simeone do).

Mascherano has clearly come along way as a CB, he doesn't look out of place there like he used to. of course he's wasted there but still.



yeah, I have no idea how defening works

you know I've heard you say that second line before, in the chat
Its hard to judge pique cuz the barca system is the hardest system for a defender ever


I'm gonna say to both of these, nonsense. How a defense is deployed does not dictate the difficulty of a job, it is only 1 aspect, you can't single it out and deem it the "hardest system ever" without considering the whole. It's like saying, I have the hardest job in the world because I have to subdue wildlife. Yeah, if you were on foot manually hunting these animals with nothing but your bare hands and some rope, pretty fucking difficult job. But since you have an off road vehicle that can handle the various terrain you work in with ease, a radar tracking chipped animals and a tranquilizer rifle with a scope, this "hardest job in the world" actually becomes pretty easy since you have all the tools necessary to alleviate the difficulty. Pique plays in a high backline in a team whose foundation for success is based on unity and organization, you know an actual team? A team that is setup to work as a unit, to cover for each others weakness and structurally move together to minimize the amount of potential threats. A team thats AVERAGE possession throughout the season was 70%+. Playing with such a team alleviates the difficulty of the job immensely. Again, you can't just blanket statement "high backline the hardest system" without looking at the overall. It is far, far harder to play in a deep backline with almost no defensive coverage in the mid. Then you have a massive amount of ground the defenders now need to work within because nobody is defending in the mid... leaving to constant gambles of being caught massively out of position, stramas inter anyone? There is dozens of teams playing in the world with high backlines, and most of them could only dream of having the luxuries pique has. He has one of the easiest defensive jobs in the world by comparison. CONTEXT MATTERS.


considering that Barca actually have an incredible defensive record this season it's ridiculous really,


yeah it is ridiculous to think that a team that maintains an average of 70% possession and absolutely fucking dominates all of their opponents due to their insane frontline, would also have a good defensive record. Who would have thunk it? Am I supposed to believe that boateng/dante/benatia are some sort of defensive masters because they have an even better defensive record in their league? Again, context matters.
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby furymaker » 2015 Jun 15, 22:12

Completely agree with everything Jurgens said .

First of all , Pique's job may be the hardest job possible for him because he's slow and unagile and most of the attacks he encounters are counter-attacks , quick counters and he's too slow to react to them .
2nd of all , he's not the only player thats defending in this system , awhile back when he was "the best defender in the world" he had Puyol , one of the best CB's of all time , speedy ruthless Puyol , amazing leader , he had Abidal , defensively one of the most solid side-backs of recent time , really fast , good in air , strong , solid defender overall , Alves , best RB since Cafu ( someone may prefer Lahm , but whatever ) .
Now lets not forget , in every system he played since he came back to Barca , he had one of the smartest , calmest and the best midfielders around , Busquets , not to mention Xavi and Iniesta , duo that enabled them to keep possession 70% of the game .

Now lets get back to this season , he's playing in a system with same Alves , with Mascherano who's similar mold of player to Puyol , leader , ruthless , speedy and amazing tackler , not as good at positioning or in air , but still pretty solid player next to him . He's having Alba , not much of a help defensively , but still he came up with some big defensive plays and tackles whole season when Pique/Masche gets exposed .
Busquets is still there , calm as always and is always there to drop between 2 CB's to help them out , Rakitic is big change from Xavi , but big improvement when it comes to defending and helping Pique out .
Iniesta is also playing much deeper and is actually defending now , possession is still at 70% so there's not many attacks to stop for Pique , even when there are to be stopped , he's mostly there to remove aerial threats .

My point basically is , there are tons of players that would actually do much better job than Pique in these same situations , only thing they probably wouldn't be better at is actual passing/playmaking/dribbling Pique has , but there are still quite a few players that would do just fine even in that aspect of the game .

So to make myself clear , I'm not saying Pique is shit , even tho he's not my favorite player out there , he's still really solid defender , I'm just trying to make it easier for you to understand that his job is not as difficult as you try to present him .


On topic , Pique is not pile of shit .
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby jurgens » 2015 Jun 15, 22:45

just for the record, that comment on him being a pile of shit, I thought was obviously in jest, I guess no one got that though :lol:
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby RasniPantela » 2015 Jun 16, 06:47

And you cant say that Dani Alves was better RB than Lahm,for me Lahm on his best days was even better than cafu.
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby Roy » 2015 Jun 16, 09:20

RasniPantela wrote:And you cant say that Dani Alves was better RB than Lahm,for me Lahm on his best days was even better than cafu.


For a team like Barca (heavily attack-minded), Alves was the best SB they could possibly wish for. Lahm isn't half the attacking genius Dani Alves once was a couple years back. Yes, Lahm might be a little more all-round, but in terms of playing with the style of the team, Dani Alves was one of the best sidebacks the world has ever seen.

It depends on what you expect from an SB. Yes, in terms of being all-round, Lahm is better than both Alves and Cafu...in terms of being a modern SB (which means attacking more than defending, basically playing as an WB/SMF hybrid, and having a CB cover the hole you leave behind), Lahm can't even shake a stick at Alves.
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby furymaker » 2015 Jun 16, 09:27

As I wrote , someone may prefer Lahm , for me , Alves is better , simply because at his highest peak he's miles ahead of Lahm and he had 3-4 seasons like that , while Lahm has been consistently great for 5-6 seasons .
Alves had seasons when he was just another man in the attack and 1 man less in defense . Lahm is just complete package , and intelligence-wise , Alves cant touch him , but its all matter of preference .
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby martins7 » 2015 Jul 01, 02:42

His passing skills are very difficult to rate but when he plays as DMF he shows a better capacity to passing the ball than this. For example, in the World Cup and in a few games of this season when he played at midfield he shows a improvement. Even if it's not so hard to accomplish he demonstrated ability to perform incisive passes , for me he is better passer than Ramos who sit 81 SPA. The problem is that he is a centralback and doesn't show that constantly ,a high value will overrate him .
I know it's difficult and complex but maybe he can have 2 sets , one as DMF , one as CB . I think that his DEF and passing skills can be 2-3 points higher than this , for me he is better than Pique at tackling , but I know that he will be overrate with 87-88 DEF as CDM or 82-83 SPA as CB. Maybe just 1 set with a little increase in this aspects can be good too but I don't know who to rate him without overrate or underrate numbers.
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby furymaker » 2015 Jul 01, 08:02

You're missing the point of having 2 sets for him , SPA is actually not a problem even if he had it at 85 , if player consistently shows short passing accuracy worth of that value he'll get it , no matter the position he plays .
His main problems are how do you rate him DEF and TW-wise to fit his playstyle on both positions , its just impossible , you overrate him at one position and underrate him at another , thats the whole thing why we'd make 2 sets for him .
When you watch Argentina , Masche is by far the best classic DMF in the world , when you watch him as CB at Barca , he's your average CB with insanely good tackling but still fairly average positioning , covering , etc.

I'd still love to have 2 sets for him , DMF one and CB one , both showing his clear strengths and weaknesses without underrating or overrating other position.
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby jurgens » 2015 Jul 01, 08:45

I think his dmf set is fine, I'd just take his resp down a little as it's not really what hes about, hes got great response, but hes not some mindless hounder like gargano or something, dunno if hes that fast now though.
If we were to make a set for him as CB, we'd have to give him something like 77? TW, 86 def (thats pushing it imo, hes not that good at grounded tackling and if you are to include overall safety and not just tackling, 86 has to be the max) and 5 form. I'd give him less ment aswell, he has the same winning spirit, but he doesn't have the same affect on the team... he really can inspire a lead in the midfield, in the CB position it just doesn't transition for him as well... maybe 90 just to keep that stark comparison between him and pique.
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby Fantasista » 2015 Jul 01, 10:39

Honestly I don't really like the idea of having two sets for any player. That was once tried with S. Ramos and didn't seem to work well. Just unneeded confusion if you ask me. Moreover how that is suppose to work in master league or even in exhibition match? It's impossible to change sets when I'm already picking squad, formation etc... If anything I'd consider dropping CB as a secondary position. When playing out of position he will be much worse in terms of movement, positioning, etc. just like IRL.
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby martins7 » 2015 Jul 01, 21:04

furymaker wrote:You're missing the point of having 2 sets for him , SPA is actually not a problem even if he had it at 85 , if player consistently shows short passing accuracy worth of that value he'll get it , no matter the position he plays .
His main problems are how do you rate him DEF and TW-wise to fit his playstyle on both positions , its just impossible , you overrate him at one position and underrate him at another , thats the whole thing why we'd make 2 sets for him .
When you watch Argentina , Masche is by far the best classic DMF in the world , when you watch him as CB at Barca , he's your average CB with insanely good tackling but still fairly average positioning , covering , etc.

I'd still love to have 2 sets for him , DMF one and CB one , both showing his clear strengths and weaknesses without underrating or overrating other position.


Very interesting your point of view, I don't had this vision.
However , you're missing the point of my suggestion too. It is obvious that if a player, regardless of their position, show a high skill he will received it... I was just pointed that when Mascherano plays as CDM he demonstrates better ability to passing and less tackling being completely the reverse of when he plays as a centralback ( + DEF - SPA).

The difference for this is because he doesn't perform such skill constantly due to their different positions , his SPA and DEF is just only examples because he really changes several aspects of his game(MEN,TW,STA etc etc).

The point of my ideia , is to demonstrate his all of his skills, I think that we just see all ofthat when we saw him playing in different positions , he is a player who changes a lot his style (not only for tactical reasons) features increasing and decreasing in some aspects that is clearly possible to see when comparing the two positions that he plays.

I agree with Fantasista about the difficulty of having two sets but I understand and even agree with that possibility(two sets), just to show his qualities and defects in both positions without overrating or underrating his other position.
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby jurgens » 2015 Jul 02, 02:10

Fantasista wrote:. That was once tried with S. Ramos and didn't seem to work well..


I can't really remember, but I thought it ended up being a good solution?
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby Roy » 2015 Jul 03, 07:05

Yeah didn't he have a couple of additional stats in a spoiler saying "as SB" ? Or was that another player? A similar thing could be done for Mascherano.
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby BigStu » 2015 Jul 03, 09:12

think ramos had it,I also did it with Ivanovic when he used to play in the middle for us
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby Ramindbroken » 2015 Jul 07, 13:28

I'm the only one that thinks he needs higher STA? In the Copa America final, he did an amazing run against Matias Fernandez (he totally destroyed him in speed btw) at the 93'. I posted this after the WC too, probably in Barca you cant notice because he plays as a CB and he doesnt need to run that much. I have him on 89 STA and i'm sure he deserves it, except someone can explain me why he is only in 86.
Also i totally agree with making another set, one can be used for Barca and the other for NT in PES, would be perfect.
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby mcmattie » 2015 Oct 08, 14:51

Question! Why is his SA and ST so high? Current values are imo really high for a CB. He never scores a goal. Only 2 in his club career so far, and don't know whether they were headers or something.
Plus, isn't he more a CB instead of a DM for a long time now?
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Re: Javier Mascherano

Postby Ramindbroken » 2015 Oct 08, 15:50

I have him on 64 SA, he never shots. Like ever.
Explanations about his position have been given in previous comments.
I keep saying the same thing: he looks more like 89 STA to me, i've never see him tired. At all, ever.

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