Martin Harnik


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Martin Harnik

Postby PES Stats Database » 2008 Dec 11, 14:53

Double Nationality: _aut Austrian | _ger German
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby PMC » 2009 Jul 21, 07:24

I'd be cautious regarding "minimum" and "maximum" but its true that Harnik could hardly play as SB if he had no clue how to do it.
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby monKevski » 2009 Jul 21, 09:09

I wouldn't give him such that high Def value as he only player for only few games. He still played in that role.
He's still a taught winger in my eyes which makes him too good in defending. As I said we should see how he develope himself within the season. At first I wouldn't go into the 50's in Def.
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby scr1899 » 2009 Jul 21, 09:14

Even if he'll play as a SB his main position is still WF.
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby Seb » 2009 Jul 21, 09:43

scr1899 wrote:Even if he'll play as a SB his main position is still WF.

No, his main position is SB! It is written at the Werder-Homepage like posted above. http://www.werder.de/team/spieler/harnik.php You can believe me. It is more realistic that he will play no games than playing one game as a WF. You will see! Bremen get lots of Attackers. For this season his main position will be SB. WF is optional, for example at Austrian team.

Like i say above, yesterday he played as a SB.

Right, Calleklein. If I have seen it right, 58 makes him the weakest SB in defending of the league, which is ok so far as his strengths will definitely be more in offense. But we really have to have a minimum def level, so 58 for now is a good choice for a "new" SB.


Yes! They way the Pro Evo stats work isn´t Harnik´s problem. As a WF in the past he didn´t "need" a high defence skill. Sure, different positions mean different tasks! So the Defence value, like the Attack value, has much to do with the position. Watch this thread: http://pesstatsdatabase.com/viewtopic.php?f=186&t=9680&hilit=Eilts
brondbylove told me that 88 at defence is too high for a DM. So i rate him at 79.
So we should not discuss this Defence value too hard. The problem ist that we often, or allways rate specific Defence and Attack values subliminal for specific positions. So this values are often determined!

Okay, but how can we solve this problem?
I think 58 for defence is okay. I think balance 78 is too much for him. He is tall but not with 77 kg not so strong. Balance 76 or 75 would be a good idea.
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby monKevski » 2009 Jul 21, 09:54

He's still a taught WF and SB is not his preferred position!
I think in the national he won't play as a SB, right?

And about BB: As you said he's tall, but with 77kg not so strong, but if give even a lower value, he would be still weaker than he actually is.
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby Seb » 2009 Jul 21, 11:54

Okay, i agree that he is still a taught WF. But this means that he will be a taught SB in few months!
He said that he is ready for this challenge at Werder Bremen. He gets more and more familiar with this position. I think he would say "yes, now my preferred position at Werder Bremen is SB"

I think his position at his club is more important than his role in the national team. On the long run he will be a SB in the national team too (for sure if he continues his SB development in the next years) Maybe he can save his Attacker-talents for the national team. On this understanding he will be a regular WF too.

Hm, no solution for the questions i think.

If we follow the normal definition of player positions we simply will change it in a few months. Somebody who don´t know him will think that he is a SB. Maybe a Uefa-Cup game in 3 months where he replaces Fritz in the 75 minute or something like that.

So change it to *SB at this moment or wait for 2 or 3 months. :)

And also very important, Schaaf is coach thinking at foresight. He wants do develop Harnik at this position. If we speak about Leverkusen, Hamburg or Bayern i would say "okay let´s wait a few months, maybe they will dismiss their trainer". Schaaf has been the coach of Werder Bremen for 10 years!
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby monKevski » 2009 Jul 21, 12:14

I'm for waiting for some games in the Bundesliga, I'd like to see him playing more there.
But I doubt that what you said about him and the national team, Austria has enough Side Backs on the right side and they need him more forward than in the defence in my eyes.
In my opinion we should for some games to see him on the SB position before drawing any conclusions. ;)
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby calleklein » 2009 Jul 21, 12:14

monKevski wrote:He's still a taught WF and SB is not his preferred position!
I think in the national he won't play as a SB, right?

And about BB: As you said he's tall, but with 77kg not so strong, but if give even a lower value, he would be still weaker than he actually is.


He is SB* and that's official on every serious Site in the net including Werder.com
No need to discuss any further.
Fritz was Striker too and now?
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby PMC » 2009 Jul 21, 12:22

monKevski wrote:I'm for waiting for some games in the Bundesliga, I'd like to see him playing more there.
But I doubt that what you said about him and the national team, Austria has enough Side Backs on the right side and they need him more forward than in the defence in my eyes.
In my opinion we should for some games to see him on the SB position before drawing any conclusions. ;)


the thing is... would Schaaf use Harnik out of all players as SB if he was a "40s" defence guy? At Austria Harnik didn't play lately anyhow so thats another question mark there. Theres a few Wing Forwards who got converted into SBs in Liga1 and most of them are in the 50s for defence.
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby Paddy » 2009 Jul 21, 12:52

58 is far from a weak value for a SB*
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby PMC » 2009 Jul 21, 13:13

Paddy wrote:58 is far from a weak value for a SB*



well... theres not many SBs around with such a value though

58 is a value I'd give to guys who are "wingbacks" for example
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby Paddy » 2009 Jul 21, 14:10

PMC wrote:
Paddy wrote:58 is far from a weak value for a SB*



well... theres not many SBs around with such a value though

58 is a value I'd give to guys who are "wingbacks" for example


I can't see why you couldn't give a woeful defender a value of 53 for example. I can't see how, just because he's made play in a position owuld make him any better than players like Gareth Bale and Rafael da Silva defensively.
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby Seb » 2009 Jul 21, 15:51

Okay guys... Whats about reducing the defence value to 53 but using *SB as main position?

The point is that we don´t want to overrate him! In this database there are special range rules in values. So we have to rate him as a SB. He isn´t a WB with high defence value. No! He is an upcoming SB with not good developed abilities.

Don´t we have other solutions?
What about reducing Teamwork value? He got Team Work Ability: 75 as a WB.
At this moment, he isn´t able to be a that good teamwork player at the *SB position.
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby Paddy » 2009 Jul 21, 15:55

I really don't understand him playing as a SB, he was actually one of Austria's stand out players at the Euros... And as a WF/SS too...

I think we should give him a minimal value (53) until we actually get to see him playing there in a competitive match.
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby PMC » 2009 Jul 21, 15:58

in his case... I wouldn't really do something about it before the season starts and we see him in a real match. I mean a romanian coach used 2 midfielders as forwards in a game vs Fc Köln just for the sake of it and I wouldn't classify either of them now as a CF.

Let's see if he'll play there in competetive games 1st :)
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby monKevski » 2009 Jul 21, 16:11

I see it like PMC, we should wait the whole first period to get a really view of his playing as a SB. ;)
Then we can tweak him in the important areas.
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby Seb » 2009 Jul 21, 16:15

PMC wrote:in his case... I wouldn't really do something about it before the season starts and we see him in a real match. I mean a romanian coach used 2 midfielders as forwards in a game vs Fc Köln just for the sake of it and I wouldn't classify either of them now as a CF.

Let's see if he'll play there in competetive games 1st :)


Hugo Almeida
Marko Futacs
Marcelo Moreno
Markus Rosenberg
Boubacar Sanogo
+ maybe Pizarro

Maybe at Amateur-Team (second team)
John Jairo Mosquera
Torsten Oehrl

Futacs is very young. Maybe he will play again no game.
But they have: Almeida, Moreno, Rosenberg, Sanogo and maybe Pizarro
This means Harnik wouln´d take part at the second string. Maybe he would play at the third.

There is no need for Harnik to be a Attacker in that team. And Schaaf didn´t let him play at this position for the sake of it. Like i said above, Schaaf said:

"We need you at the RB position. This is your chance to play an important role at our club"

But okay i shut up no :)
Nice discussion guys!
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby calleklein » 2009 Jul 21, 19:26

Every serious source including Schaaf are right and you're wrong monKevski...that's 100% sure.
He will be SB* primary and not WF like you want him.
I'm here seriously with seb & co and that's founded on clear Words and a decision made by Schaaf.
But right...wait and see!
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby monKevski » 2009 Jul 21, 19:34

I don't mean that he will play as a WF, I said he's taught on this position during the last seasons.
And it's also his own prefered position, but as he already said he must live with it that Schaaf will put him at right side of the defence. Hope, you'll understand now what I still meant. ;)
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Re: Martin HARNIK

Postby calleklein » 2009 Jul 21, 20:37

Honestly...Do you think Schaaf would engage him as SB* with a 42 DEF Value, i think not.

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