Neymar

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Neymar

Postby PES Stats Database » 2009 Mar 19, 01:54

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Last edited by vinnie on 2014 Oct 24, 10:08, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Neymar

Postby Ocrin » 2018 Feb 03, 20:35

I have him on 91 in my OF and I'm thinking about updating him to that value. I think the set needs a few minor tweaks there and there as well, but for now FK is the most obvious upgrade he needs I think.
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Re: Neymar

Postby AAlvin » 2018 Feb 03, 23:06

Just scored his 350th career goal as a player, and just 25, :-o more than ronaldo and Messi at 25, it'sso shocking, also 19goals from becoming all time Brazil top scorer (Pelé 77goals) these are unbelievable numbers for such a player, I think after the madrid game should determine if he's worth a 92 Attack, but except from that, I think he deserves upgrading in most of his abilities, by the way, he'll be turning 26 on the 5th of feb.
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Re: Neymar

Postby vinnie » 2018 Feb 10, 22:55

played an excellent match versus toulouse in my opinion, no showboating, he dragged defenders out of position, and looked to play passes behind the defense whenever he moved inside with the ball. he played some really superb passes, one really excellent ground pass that didn't lead to anything for example, but sent ?di maria? free down the right flank. he had another great free kick that was just a foot wide of the top left corner in the second half- i think he's a better free kick taker than messi now honestly. easy man of the match, much more like what i expect out of his talent level, or an orange attack.
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Re: Neymar

Postby jurgens » 2018 Mar 01, 19:34

Looks like hes going to be out for the next three months.

It's pretty funny really, by getting injured, he missed the opportunity to play any high tier football this year, which is what we've been waiting to judge him on. He'll probably be back for the world cup, which is piss poor level football these days :(

Either way, I'm pretty much settled on him regardless of who he faces now. The more I watch, the more I realize, everything stays the same. Yeah, he develops and incorporates new things into his playstyle, but the foundation of it remains the same. He has decent ingenuity, and great flair and "magic". Hes capable of playing beautiful football, and every now and then pulling off some magical play on the ball. But he lacks killer instinct and plays too much with his ego. These have always been his biggest flaws, and they've barely changed.

I kept thinking watching him in Barca, how much time does this guy actually need on the ball to do something? How long does he have to dribble with the ball to score? He'd be dribbling outside the box, cut in, dribble, dribble some more, some more, and then maybe do something. I'd always be thinking, jesus, this guy has no killer instinct. If that was Messi on the ball, it'd be a goal. He fails to recognize or create a chance on the ball for himself repeatedly. Messi, on the other hand, can have the ball around the box for 2-3 seconds, and it's a goal, the first opportunity you give him, he doesn't even need an opportunity, he'll make one. Neymar just doesn't have that killer instinct like Messi, it's completely lacking from his game. He relies on gaining space with speed, but when he has to solve problems without it, he has to fall back on his team-mates, or trickery. While this isn't a bad thing per se, as most players can't do it, it just shows the difference between a true killer and someone who isn't. Whereas Messi would have recognized that chance and turned it into a goal, Neymar will essentially move the chance, to a more prolonged, less dangerous attack. He just can't take it himself like others can.

The thing is though, I wouldn't fault him for that if he didn't try to take it on himself, repeatedly. Thats one of his major problems. Hes a winger, he likes to pick up the ball and move it from far back on the wing, and hes really good at it. Hes at his best when hes on the wing, he has more of the pitch to work with and he can exploit his speed. His trickery is much better on the wing too, this is really where he is good at it. He can create very well as a winger. So let's say I'd call him as a player there. Wow, a fast winger whos has amazing dribbling and trickery, great ingenuity and football magic, and he can pass at a world class level with amazing vision to back it up? If it ended just there, holy shit, that is a fucking amazing player.
But it doesn't end there, he wants to be the SS too, he wants to be the goal scorer. And while he can do it, a lot of it comes down to him needing these specific situations to be met, and when they aren't met, he either kills the play or takes the intensity out of it.

It's this need to be the main man, his ego that really hurts the team. Hes good enough to be the main man, but it goes beyond that, you can still be the main man, the most important player on the team, without ignoring your team-mates repeatedly, without needless killing plays, without having to score every goal. But that isn't enough for him, he just has moments where his ego just completely takes over. He really is a double-edged sword, you put him on and let him produce his magic, and he'll do it, but it comes at a cost, a great cost even. And that cos can definitely be decisive against the team. Over and over again at barca I'd see Neymar with the ball, doing things that we're unessacary, taking time away from messi, hurting the team overall. But when he eventually does something, it's all forgotten. In fact, I wouldn't say it's forgotten, I'd say most people don't even see it. Just think about that for a second, how many times have we seen Messi vs top-tier competition, in the league, in the ucl, in the semis, in the finals, single-handedly decide a game from out of nothing? Just a few touches of the ball, and it's over. Hes done it over, and over and over again. If you think about that fact, and that Neymars very seldomly does it, and spends a massive amount of time on the ball, thus taking away from the guy whos actually repeatedly decisive. It's fucking crazy really.

I'll say, hes already a world class player, but a very frustrating one at that. And because of his ego getting in the way and hurting the team, it makes him a much less reliable player vs real compeition, as hes actively taking chances away from the actual killers in the team, and thats a very bad thing. But like I said, it's a double-edged sword, because it can go the other way too. I'm just not convinced it's worth it in a team with top tier talent, vs real competition.

He can work up his vision, to the next level, and he'll be a fucking insane player. But those key problems will always remain, and truly stop him from being what he could potentially be. Just imagine the type of player he could be if he reigned in his ego. His problems with killer instinct wouldn't matter, as his strengths are fucking insane for a winger, he could be one of the best wingers of all time with that skill set and vision. But, I feel it's quite unlikely at this stage hes magically going to change the fundamentals of his game. His move to france really reflects his exact problems on the pitch. Still, hes an absolutely excellent player nonethless, and he'll most likely win at least one Balon-dor. Can't help but just feel frustrated when I watch him though, and dissapointed at what he could be, regardless of how good he is, he could be that much greater.
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Re: Neymar

Postby Parado » 2018 Mar 28, 11:31

Just want to ask one question, why is isco's ball control was high red value but neymar just low orange value??? thats all
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Re: Neymar

Postby Ocrin » 2018 Mar 28, 15:49

Parado wrote:Just want to ask one question, why is isco's ball control was high red value but neymar just low orange value??? thats all


It has been discussed many times, but basically there was a consensus about the fact that Neymar never pulls off red tech first touches under pressure. While the quality seems to be there, he never uses it as a red value would allow him in game. It's about replicating his usage of technique.

Isco being at high reds is a no brainer, his ball control is straight from another planet and he pulls off staggering touches all the time and in a variety of situations.

EDIT: also, feel free to read the latest pages of both threads, you'll have a clearer view of why they are rated like this.
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Re: Neymar

Postby Ocrin » 2018 May 18, 05:22

Even though his season ended prematurely, there are a few changes I'd suggest based on his season. Here's what I'd change for now:

Spoiler: show
91 ATT: a no-brainer for me, his danger level and movement are insane when he's on his day. He's actually pretty damn smart off the ball, he baits defenders so easily at times, and overall I think we have to replicate how much of a threat he is on and off the ball with higher attack. Probably he's worth a bit more, maybe 92 like jurgens said, anyway the overall point is that 87 is a bit too low.

91 ACC: I'm a bit doubtful about this one, ideally I'd give him 92 ACC and 86 TS, he doesn't make much use of his speed off the ball and more than his TS, his DS is more relevant when it comes to replicate his speed.

75 MENT: has proven at higher levels that he is a big game player and can step up vs tough opposition. Because of the relative lack of it this season specifically, I wouldn't push for anything higher at the moment though.

82 STA: I thought it had been nerfed quite some time ago from the current 85? Anyway, he's a it overrated here, his workrate at PSG is far from that value. He doesn't track back nearly as much as he used to in his last months at Barcelona. His current workrate is very similar to Mbappé's who doesn't defend at all, except Mbappé tends to basically disappear in the late stages of a game, which is why I'd still keep Neymar a few points above him. Probably DEF can go down by 4-5 points too, by the way.

Form 3: pretty much the only way to replicate his everlasting inconsistency, the way he goes in and out of a match is terrible really, even when the opposition wasn't so tough he has had those matches where he was just unfocused and inefficient.

I also do wonder if his recent injury is worth downgrading is IT to B, but well, it's one injury really even if it's not a minor one, it's probably a bit too soon?
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Re: Neymar

Postby R9style » 2018 May 18, 19:30

I agree with 91 att and especially with the idea of ​​reducing his form to 3.
His offensive movement still very hight level when he decides to play football , he still has high-scoring stats without being a real goal scorer. I mean, you have to have some smart offensive movement to score as much goal, as he does even if he lack of consistence.
About acc, imo, he alway had above 90. I Will also suggest something like 91-92 and 82 stamina, its a perfect combinaition.
Last edited by R9style on 2018 May 18, 19:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neymar

Postby jurgens » 2018 May 18, 19:38

the only change he needs is higher ACC, he hasn't proven his attack, or anything else for that matter since going to france, it's basically been a waste of a year for him, and for us to rate him better. so i'd have to disagree with everything, but acc. his stamina is great so im not sure on where that suggestion is based on, hes shown time and time again that he can run all day and never seems to drop his level because of stamina, its impressive.
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Re: Neymar

Postby R9style » 2018 May 18, 20:13

He has prove his att imo but not consistentely, that the reason why the idea to downgrade his form to 3 look accurate. But i respect your opinion.
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Re: Neymar

Postby jurgens » 2018 May 18, 20:36

shouldn't be balancing attack out with lower form, can't give a striker 95 attack cause hes a killer on occasion, then give them 2 form, attack and other mental stats should be set at roughly the average of the player, besides neymar isn't a form 3, as I've shown in the old konami form charts, 3 is basically a non existant player in prime years, should be seen very, very rarely. If something must come up, i'd go with the attack, but keep him out of 90's, he just hasn't shown hes worth it enough, and shown nothing at a high level this year.
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Re: Neymar

Postby R9style » 2018 May 19, 12:42

jurgens wrote:If something must come up, i'd go with the attack, but keep him out of 90's, he just hasn't shown hes worth it enough, and shown nothing at a high level this year.


I understand your opinion. That's right, he has not proved regulary at the very hight level in the term of attack. But honestly, I find 87 too low. If it needs to be rated below 90, so Imo, I increase it to 89. I would also decrease his def to 40, his defensive work is non-existent. Like some people says here, he need a bit better Acc, like 91-92.
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Re: Neymar

Postby vinnie » 2018 May 19, 21:31

jurgens wrote:the only change he needs is higher ACC, he hasn't proven his attack, or anything else for that matter since going to france, it's basically been a waste of a year for him, and for us to rate him better. so i'd have to disagree with everything, but acc. his stamina is great so im not sure on where that suggestion is based on, hes shown time and time again that he can run all day and never seems to drop his level because of stamina, its impressive.


even though he makes such stupid decisions.. he was on pace to way out produce what either ibrahimovic, or cavani, or falcao have ever been capable of, when the league hasn't changed all that much. he was on pace for 65-70 goals and assists in the league or something before he got injured?

i think it's a matter of not respecting the ligue 1, or defenders in general irregardless of where he is. neymar just wants to be a showman and make highlight reel moments. but through his career he has shown enough to make it evident that he has terrific vision and an ability to make full use of his range of abilities. it's just a matter of his attitude. he doesn't respect ligue 1, possibly even his own psg teammates, and it shows. but compare what sanchez showed at barcelona, to arsenal, in a serious league, and as the main man. whatever sanchez showed at arsenal i'm sure neymar is capable of to a higher level, and HAS shown in rare glimpses. and it's not about being inconsistent, he just doesn't have the interest in playing as effectively as he can- and that's different to someone who can't play as dangerously and who can't see those options like neymar.

compare neymar to hazard: hazard has always been very team oriented, very safe, efficient, super high dribbling percentage, but he definitely is clearly below neymar in terms of that cutting edge ability, the capability to go forward and throw the defenders off and do something to make a chance.


i think he should have at least a two point increase in attack, and i've thought about something like 91 attack.

but, and i did post about this before, i do remember when i originally was thinking that he'd started proving himself, so i watched more full matches and was horrified by what i saw :lol: . it's difficult because he has moments of absolute brilliance, but the 75 minutes surrounding those glimpses that made a difference in a match would be a catastrophe of ridiculous decisions, and outrageous indulgence and wastefulness- he just turns the match into some kind of clown exhibition and circus act.. so he's not the red attack he might be capable of, but he definitely is a tremendously dangerous player in the rare instance he respects his opponents.

that's alot to say only to agree that 89 attack is probably the most fair rating for neymar at the moment, but i think neymar IS ALREADY capable of being a phenomenal player, a more skilled, hyper alexis sanchez, but he just has no interest. the numbers he was producing though just shows how deadly he is in just those tiny glimpses where he plays in a sincere way though.
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Re: Neymar

Postby jurgens » 2018 May 20, 03:45

he was on pace to way out produce what either ibrahimovic, or cavani, or falcao have ever been capable of, when the league hasn't changed all that much.


His all round ability is so far over them though, a dribbler with stamina and a good shot, who can produce for himself. I'd also contend that, depay ended up with values pretty close to neymars, while only playing about 1/5th more of the season. And we all know what depay was producing at united.... the french league is incredibly weak.
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Re: Neymar

Postby Ocrin » 2018 May 20, 04:50

I do agree about his STA and how rarely he shows signs of fatigue, but on the other hand, don't we have to replicate his regression regarding workrate in a way?
He can run all day long with 85 STA, much more than he actually did this season. I get that it is probably more due to how the team is built around him to allow him to play like this, but I think it's worth replicating anyway? I mean, I know I kinda push a bit too much for experimentation and change sometimes, but there is certainly a noticeable change in this aspect.

While I agree about the overall level of Ligue 1 being medicore, Depay needed some time to settle there. He only started being very consistent a few weeks/months ago, when he was starting to get fielded more centrally, something that did not happen much (or didn't happen at all?) in his previous club. Certainly you don't get the same opposition in Ligue 1 and in PL, but probably his progression as a player and the tactical changes that allowed it deserve a bit of credit too.
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Re: Neymar

Postby Eternal Night » 2018 May 20, 07:49

btw I suffer watching that pic again and again :lol:

Code: Select all

[img]https://i.imgur.com/GfpKpzz.png[/img]


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Re: Neymar

Postby jurgens » 2018 Jun 18, 23:48

That performance vs switzerland was abolsute fucking shit, horrdendously bad. Was nothing but a massive hindrance to his team, fucking retarded shit.
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Re: Neymar

Postby jurgens » 2018 Jun 19, 00:36

I do agree about his STA and how rarely he shows signs of fatigue, but on the other hand, don't we have to replicate his regression regarding workrate in a way?
He can run all day long with 85 STA, much more than he actually did this season. I get that it is probably more due to how the team is built around him to allow him to play like this, but I think it's worth replicating anyway? I mean, I know I kinda push a bit too much for experimentation and change sometimes, but there is certainly a noticeable change in this aspect.


Drop def then? Like I said, he really earned that value in the past, and it's kinda "unique" thing, I dunno about unique but like, hes a player that can take the reigns for 90 mins on the ball and just keep running and taking people on, it was one of his defening apsects at barca. Think its important to stay high.

While I agree about the overall level of Ligue 1 being medicore, Depay needed some time to settle there. He only started being very consistent a few weeks/months ago, when he was starting to get fielded more centrally, something that did not happen much (or didn't happen at all?) in his previous club. Certainly you don't get the same opposition in Ligue 1 and in PL, but probably his progression as a player and the tactical changes that allowed it deserve a bit of credit too.


Yeah, I'm not trying to take away from depays progression or the team that helped him, I always thought depay was a high potential player anyways, I'm just trying to say, neymars record, really wasn't all that, when compared to depay whos had massive fucking issues.
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Re: Neymar

Postby reydecopas » 2018 Jul 06, 19:55

What a fucking clown, unbelievable not even with his team losing he's still doing the same shit per match
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Re: Neymar

Postby furymaker » 2018 Jul 06, 21:32

difference in maturity in play between Neymar and Hazard is so freaking huge, one was trying to play 1v11 whole game, dribbling past one or two players, running into more whole night long, other was taking what was given to him, played with the flow of the game, exposed free space.
Neymar's ability is unquestionable, but his decision making hurts him so damn much.

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