Romário | 1993-1994 & 1999-2000


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Romário | 1993-1994 & 1999-2000

Postby PES Stats Database » 2008 Dec 11, 19:55

- 1993-1994 :

Club: FC Barcelona

Nickname: "Cobra" | "O Baixinho"



Growth type: Standard/Lasting


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


- 1999-2000 :

Nickname: "Cobra" | "O Baixinho"

Club: Vasco da Gama



Growth Type: Standard/Lasting

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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby Classical » 2008 Dec 23, 20:41

I like the age logic. And agree. I don't agree with shooting stats from Barça. In my opinion: SA=96 , SP=89, ST=95. He was a killer blow in those seasons.
He said to Cruyff taht he wanted to skip a game to go to Rio spend the New Year. Cruyff said ok if he scored 3 times against Real Madrid. He scored.
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby choccy » 2009 Feb 01, 13:13

I wouldn't hesitate to give him 97 for ACC for his 93/94 stats, I've rarely seen a player so quick off the mark and with such great control of the ball at the same time. The defenders were left chasing shadows in his prime.
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby sencesor » 2009 Feb 01, 17:54

Classical
Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:41 pm

Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

I like the age logic. And agree. I don't agree with shooting stats from Barça. In my opinion: SA=96 , SP=89, ST=95. He was a killer blow in those seasons.
He said to Cruyff taht he wanted to skip a game to go to Rio spend the New Year. Cruyff said ok if he scored 3 times against Real Madrid. He scored.


Agree. not sure bout s.p. (89), but s.a. & s.t. should b in the low red zone imo.

another thing is his mentality that should b much higher i think - no so much for "hard working" (still, he is Brazilian... ;) :D ), rather then his "die hard" attitude, never giving up & rising in hard & crucial moments...
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby Alcohomicide » 2009 Feb 01, 18:28

Technique 95-96. He is the master of trap and shoot, I have never seen a striker with a consistently better first touch. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_0-j3gi6C ... re=channel
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby Classical » 2009 Feb 13, 04:06

When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea. Eric Cantona
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby Alcohomicide » 2009 Feb 20, 22:54

His dribbling is under rated - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBBue_js ... re=channel

I think he's better than Garrincha in every aspect of dribbling, even agility. (But Garrincha is already over rated) I think 94/95 considering ratings of other players.
"When we were winning leagues and European Cups at Real I always said Makelele was our most important player. There is no way myself Figo or Raúl would have been able to do what we did without Claude and the same goes for Liverpool and Gerrard."
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby Brezza » 2009 Feb 21, 18:29

I disagree with your opinion that Romario was a better dribbler than Garrincha but how do you feel about these values:

Agility: 94
Dribble accuary:93
Dribble Speed: 98
Acceleration: 97 ( ty Choccy)
Technique: 95
Shot Accuracy: 92
Shot Technique: 93-95
Mentality: 80 ?

I'll post reasoning later.
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby Alcohomicide » 2009 Feb 23, 11:50

The values look good, I will test them. They look like they would suit his style of play, especially with TS 88 which IMO is perfect.

I think other adjustments need to be made though, like teamwork should not be so high I don't think, I would say greens. And he is too... advanced. All the time. Often when he gets the ball he is too high up the pitch to replicate his bursting defence splitting on-the-ball runs.

I think some poaching stats will have to be sacrificed, like with Maradona. Remember he got the ball, made a pass and just burst forward into an offside position? Would not really get the ball and go go go at the defenders!!

EDIT - ...You really think Garrincha is better than Romário at dribbling? I think oranges would be fair for Garrincha. :\
"When we were winning leagues and European Cups at Real I always said Makelele was our most important player. There is no way myself Figo or Raúl would have been able to do what we did without Claude and the same goes for Liverpool and Gerrard."
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby lfc 4 eva » 2009 Feb 23, 13:18

Alcohomicide wrote:EDIT - ...You really think Garrincha is better than Romário at dribbling? I think oranges would be fair for Garrincha. :\


What?! I always thought Garrincha was one of the greatest dribblers of all time
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby Alcohomicide » 2009 Feb 23, 15:34

lfc 4 eva wrote:
Alcohomicide wrote:EDIT - ...You really think Garrincha is better than Romário at dribbling? I think oranges would be fair for Garrincha. :\


What?! I always thought Garrincha was one of the greatest dribblers of all time


Based on what? Haha.
"When we were winning leagues and European Cups at Real I always said Makelele was our most important player. There is no way myself Figo or Raúl would have been able to do what we did without Claude and the same goes for Liverpool and Gerrard."
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby lfc 4 eva » 2009 Feb 23, 15:58

Alcohomicide wrote:
lfc 4 eva wrote:
Alcohomicide wrote:EDIT - ...You really think Garrincha is better than Romário at dribbling? I think oranges would be fair for Garrincha. :\


What?! I always thought Garrincha was one of the greatest dribblers of all time


Based on what? Haha.

Videos and what other people have said about him really.
But I do agree that Romario should have better Dribbling than he currently has. He reminds me of Zlatan the way he beats people by shifting the ball from foot to foot, but at a much higher speed.
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby Alcohomicide » 2009 Feb 23, 16:24

It's great to watch, aye. :lol:

Okay...

In the videos I've seen of Garrincha, and matches, I have seen some of the worst, ugliest walking pace football ever. Football from this era is over rated in my opinion. For instance, having seen all the footage I can find - I have not seen DS and ACC of God like ability, Agility 99 etc. I've seen almost entire teams stand and watch as Garrincha beats the same man repeatedly. (Like in the Simpsons where Krusty bets on basket ball and the Globetrotters member is just spinning the ball on his finger)

In the first post of his thread, there is a video. In one clip, I shit you not, Garrincha gets through on goal. The keeper can try to smother the ball or do something, anything. ...He sticks his hands up in the air like it's a bank robbery. Comedy gold. Football was crap in the 50's. :lol: (In comparison to 90's/Today's footie)

People will always distort the facts IMO. Look at Puskas for instance - he only gets such God-high ratings because we can't prove he was human like we can with the better known about Raúl, who plays in a much stronger era. (That is not an insult towards the legendary Puskas, or Garrincha) So Raúl doesn't get 95 SA or wonderful jump stats for headers that defy his physical capabilities, despite the fact if it was roles reversed, we would speak of Raúl as a God. So many years at the club, record goal scorer, all time CL top scorer, CL winner multi-times, captain of the club, Spain's top scorer. He would have ******* INSANE stats. He blows away most strikers throughout history but will neverget the recognitionlike these players, because they are human now. We can't exaggerate their abilities without at least plausible arguments made against them. (Compare balance for instance)

Garrincha gets called one of the greatest dribblers ever, but I honestly think that's simply because footballers weren't so easy to put under the microscope back then. When you rely on team mates, rival players and books, you will get exaggerations. They once claimed Pluto was a planet, you know, and that bee's couldn't physically fly. :P They also claim Duncan Edwards was United's greatest ever player.

In the Garrincha vid, you can see how slow the footie is, the players, the tempo. The only thing he had to do was avoid having his career ended by hatchetmen. Also, he played mostly out on the sides, against players who were not organised or fit. Romário played mainly through the middle against organised backlines. He has scored many goals with more than 2 outfield player + keeper to score. :P

I do not mean to rant or sound rude, as I am only explaining my belief.
Garrincha was a pioneer, no doubt. But one of the greatest?? :lol:
"When we were winning leagues and European Cups at Real I always said Makelele was our most important player. There is no way myself Figo or Raúl would have been able to do what we did without Claude and the same goes for Liverpool and Gerrard."
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby lfc 4 eva » 2009 Feb 23, 16:50

I understand what you are saying but have you considered that the reason that the players look so amateur in that video are because Garrincha made them look that way.

Maybe the reason the game is played at walking pace is because Garrincha made it that way, becuase he was so good they couldn't get the ball off him.

Or maybe they were shit :mrgreen:

I can understand a reduction in his DA but his agility was insane, ive never seen a player change direction not just 1 direction but then back again so quickly.
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby Brezza » 2009 Feb 23, 18:39

Well imo you haven’t seen enough of the songbird in action Alco. It is pretty much considered in football’s entirety that that Garrincha was one of, if not the greatest dribbler that there ever was. That’s not just the opinion of a couple of books ive read ( as you like to put it :P) but pretty much the opinion of every football expert as a whole, so it’s your word against them ;)

I hope you haven’t judged Garricncha from a few dribbling clips, the man was sensational and could win matches all by himself. For instance in the 1962 world cup when , Pele injured himself in the second match against Czechoslovkia. Garrincha went on to dominate the tournament in such a way that even Diego Maradona's 1986 World Cup performances were said to pale in comparison. It’s considered that if players like Garrincha or Pele never Brazil would be nothing compared to the super powers they are today.

Football really is a sport based mostly on skill as its prime requirement no matter what era really, don’t think it hasn’t changed over the course of footballing history. I do agree that he played at a slower pace, and he liked to slow down on the ball when he went one –on one with a defender, so yeah dribble speed could possibly be even around Stanley Matthews rating but Im not sure what playing at a slower tempo has to do with his DA though. Dribble accuracy in its purist sense is close-control and Garrincha had the ball literally glued to his feet at all times. He would constantly dribble past the whole team if required, I have often seen clips of him with 4 people marking him and yet he still manages to get past them all and put in a fantastic cross, If you want to re-create this in this football simulation game called PES these are the stats to give him imo.

Also he really was that Godly agile, his feints and body movements were out of this world, because he had one leg shorter the the other it really worked for his advantage as he confused defenders who didn't know which was he was going because of the awkward way and body movements. There’s even a case of his agility being even more important that his dribbling accuracy.

Now you could say that those defenders were just shit but how can you say for definite it was of a lower quality, I'm sure if you asked those who played at the time if it was lower quality I’m sure they would disagree. The art of man-marking isn’t so hard to master and it was still fully endorsed around those time, and also like lfc said it most likely the case of Garrincha making them look shit, defenders were scared to commit themselves to tackle Garrincha because he could get past them in a blink of an eye so they held off him.

Also defences around that time were more organized that you might think as tactics were becoming much more defensive and were started to evolve . Around the late 50's early 60's most teams started using a 4-3-3 system rather than the usually 4-2-4 type formation the great Hungary side of the early 50's used . The use of three midfielders gave greater strength to the midfield and in fact gave a more central alignment

it was the fact that the average number of goals scored in World Cup matches during the period of 1954-1962 decreased from 5.38 per game to 2.78 per game. Clearly the emphasis of coaches was more on the defensive side of the game than on the attack.
Also that most defensive formation the catenaccio tactic was perfercted during the early 60's Three of the fullbacks were given strict man-to-man marking duties and the libero who had no specific opponent to mark, so his job was to patrol the entire center of the defense and to quickly close any gaps that might be opened by other defenders’ errors
‘An increasing emphasis on not conceding goals led to the packing of numbers in midfield. Just as the 4-2-4 formation had lost a forward to midfield and became the 4-3-3, the process continued and the 4-3-3 became the 4-4-2. England’s World Cup-winning side included a novelty in midfield — the evolution of the screen man. Nobby Stiles fulfilled this function as a defensively-oriented player detailed to mark or act as a sweeper between the back four and midfield.’

Souce: http://www.nscaa.com/print2.php?id=99

But I can see that by your opinion and your personal mission to discredit pretty much everyone in the classics section that you won’t agree, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree about Garrincha . Its really is a great football debate though.
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby lfc 4 eva » 2009 Feb 23, 18:51

Ok can we get back to Romario now.
Personally i think DA: 95
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby Brezza » 2009 Feb 23, 19:26

Possibly but Ive compared his dribbling style to that of say Kaka. Romario's dribbling is brilliant but im not sure he trickery is the class of this like Robinho Ibrahimovic Roberto Baggio etc. Romario is more about his exquisite first touch combined with his superb movemnt at running at defenders with his deadly acceleration and speed on the ball. ( imo i dont beleive he lost any speed when he was on the ball) Obviosly Romario's main advange over Kaka overall would be his agility which could maybe be even higher than 94.

In terms of shooting I disagree with giving Romario 1994 red figures for accurary. Imo the placement of his shooting improved when he developed more into a poacher and was determined to break the 1000 goal landmark, hence the two era's.
But id say there's a case of having higher shot technique in his 94 days as he had more ability to score motr wonderful and difficult angled goals and chips in that era.
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby Alcohomicide » 2009 Feb 23, 21:37

You also have to remember at lower speeds against stone age-ish people simply not ready for you that you are going to look devastating. Generally, I'm not convinced if he tried his dribbling style today, he'd be able replicate his effectiveness. He' one of my favourite players, make no mistake, an absolute inspiration, but yeah... most of those defenders were indeed rubbish compared with todays. :\ The difference seems to me, to be astounding.

I do know about his physical condition, with his legs, (he had other problems he had to battle too) and you can tell it aided him and made him able to confuse defenders, but how do you factor that in as a stat? ...You can't make legs shorter than the other and bent. I look at his agility and I think. "Is Garrincha the most agile player I've ever seen?" and I do not think so. Superior agility -was- a factor though, his twists and turns at the time were unplayable. It was like nobody had the tools to stop him, so you have that "Deer in a headlight" effect when he's one on one with a defender. "Oh, God, not me..." Football I think was evolving in this era, it was pretty much still stone age-ish, and I do think the game has moved on with regards to skill, especially in terms of beating the faster, smarter defensive units that are built on more solid communication.

I have seen full matches of Garrincha, I have watched him at the world cup, when I was younger I considered him to be the best dribbler I had seen, until I realised just how far the game has moved on. It's not an attempt to discredit anyone (what would trolling accomplish? :P), I said in my post I didn't mean to sound rude, 'cause I know it looked that way.

To me, Garrincha was an inspiration, he showed us things that before him did not seem possible, he is tremendously important, but I am struggling to swallow him being the best ever. I see your argument that he needs to have red stats to recreate the effect, but I think that's only because of the way other's are rated. There are some especially high balance figures, and most of these defenders have high stats, so I have to concede that, I just think that a truly great player has ever so slightly had his abilities blown out of proportion. :)

Back on topic! :P (This IS a great debate, though, by the way. I enjoy it)

With regards to Mário's shot in 1993/94, I agree SA should stay orange, but I would up ST like you said. What do people think about SP?

I agree about the point you made about trickery, he used intelligent movements instead of pure skills and unstoppable speed to beat people. He did not really -need- to do tricks, like with Kaká, it's the fact he's soooooo fast on the ball and can run such long distances with it, staying ahead of the defenders. I think you got that spot on considering that and his agility, so I agree there, too.
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby sencesor » 2009 Mar 18, 18:00

Brezza
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:29 pm

Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000
I disagree with your opinion that Romario was a better dribbler than Garrincha but how do you feel about these values:

Agility: 94
Dribble accuary:93
Dribble Speed: 98
Acceleration: 97 ( ty Choccy)
Technique: 95
Shot Accuracy: 92
Shot Technique: 93-95
Mentality: 80 ?

I'll post reasoning later.


Seem like good suggestions... :P
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Re: ROMÁRIO | 1993/1994 & 1999/2000

Postby Classical » 2009 Mar 19, 13:18

Honestly I think Romario only need some slight update on agility and shooting. Regarding acc/speed etc... he is well emulated as he is right now. My opinion. And just one side note, did you know that Brasil never lost a game while Garrincha and Pele played together? May sound just a simple thing, but if we think...it was really something they achieved there...
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