Karl-Heinz Schnellinger | 1962-1970


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Karl-Heinz Schnellinger | 1962-1970

Postby PES Stats Database » 2008 Dec 10, 19:07

Club: 1. FC Köln (1962/1964) | AS Roma (1964/1965) |



Growth type: Early/Lasting

INFO:

Spoiler: show
Karl-Heinz Schnellinger (born March 31, 1939 in Düren) is a former German footballer.

A vigorous defender, Schnellinger played most of his career in Italy. His debut in the Serie A came in 1963, when Schnellinger left 1. FC Köln for A.C. Mantova. He made his Serie A debut for a match against A.C. Milan ended in a surprising 4-1 victory of A.C. Mantova; however he played there only for one season, and was signed by A.S. Roma in 1964, and finally by A.C. Milan in 1965. He played nine seasons with the rossoneri, obtaining several successes both at the national and European level.

Schnellinger was a player for the West Germany national football team in the 1970 FIFA World Cup played in Mexico. Schnellinger, who never scored a goal in 222 matches for A.C. Milan, became famous for scoring the injury-time equaliser in the famous semi-final against Italy. His goal for 1-1 took the match into extra time, in which another five goals were scored. Although the Germans lost 4-3, the game is known in Germany as the Jahrhundertspiel, the "Match of the Century".

Schnellinger left A.C. Milan in 1974, and retired after a season back in his native Germany with Tennis Borussia Berlin.



VIDEOS:

Spoiler: show

(scoring at 1:03)



ADDITIONAL LINKS:

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Heinz_Schnellinger

http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/statisticsandrecords/players/player=44612/index.html

http://www.soccerslegends.com/legends/karl_heinz_schnellinger.htm

http://www3.fussballdaten.de/spieler/schnellingerkarlheinz/

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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1965-1970

Postby sencesor » 2010 Jan 25, 19:25

Never actually seen him play, just wanted to note that, that RES 85 looks possibly default-ish :| (I know I've seen his stats on some PES version :? , I remember that MEN 95 well), and perhaps it's worth being revised or explained by a member who knows about him, or one of our respectable mods? :P

P.S. Sorry if I'm just spamming, and his stats are perfect. :mrgreen:
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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1965-1970

Postby Oriello » 2010 Jan 26, 00:57

I do believe that these stats were default when kenneth26 posted them, from PES4 OF I think. But I also think Brezza gave them a little sorting a while back as he was aware some threads were very Konami default.

Just would like some clarity, I thought Schnellinger was a fullback for Milan? and played defensive CWP for West Germany in 1970?
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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1965-1970

Postby Plava Čigra » 2010 Jan 26, 11:15

Schnellinger was used in 3 positions during his career (left-back, center-half and sweeper), but I do think his primary position in Milan was left-back. Because of that, I've added CWP and and changed primary position.

I've also raise Consistency from 7 to 8. Besides that Curling should be higher then 52.

If these were default stats, then it shouldn't be written Stats by kenneth26, should it? If Brezza gave them some update these should be his stats...
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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1965-1970

Postby s-cobar » 2010 Jan 26, 11:26

I think you're right, with left back. He has also played at the 1970 World Cup and that was his biggest international tournament. He is also seen in Germany still only as left back.
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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1965-1970

Postby Plava Čigra » 2010 Jan 26, 11:57

I've given him a new format. Besides that, I've just raise Curling: 52>65 (I think it's not too much). I've also added Growth type: Early/Lasting.

***

I would like discuss a few things about him.

1. Can his Era be extended to 1962-1970? He was pretty constant player in that period.

2. Is Defence: 91 too high? Maybe high yellow number (not 100% sure)...

3. Was he faster then TS: 80 and ACC: 79? I've watched some of his games, and he looked a bit faster.

4. Should his Mentality and Balance be lowered by a couple of points (as sencesor already asked for Mentality)?

***

@sencesor

I think that Response: 85 looks decent for him (maybe even higher value can be discussed :/, but again I'm not 100% sure). He wasn't just a SB, he was used in 2 more positions, if you're comparing him top modern SB's ;). At least that's my opinion.
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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1965-1970

Postby georgebest » 2010 Jan 26, 13:00

I agree with the speed suggestion, he was faster than this. He was sometimes explosive, suddenly marching with or without the ball towards the opponents half. He was very good bonding with his teammates, teamwork can go up. A higher response would also be nice. He was more like a modern SB, he liked to join to attack. And he had a pretty good touch for a defender, i suggest 80 for technique.

Defence 91 seems good enough for him, maybe 90 can also be ok.

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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1965-1970

Postby andykeikei » 2010 Jan 26, 14:43

I think he should have mid-80s for defense.

Yes he can play at two positions, but so can Maldini, Djalma Santos, Nilton Santos. They are the best fullbacks of all time and they only have 88, 85 and 75 for defense.

PS. I think Nilton Santos is being underrated here and he should have 80 at least to be honest.
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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1965-1970

Postby Oriello » 2010 Jan 26, 17:21

Plava Čigra wrote:If these were default stats, then it shouldn't be written Stats by kenneth26, should it? If Brezza gave them some update these should be his stats...

Like I posted, I think it was the big guy, not sure though - and Plava you would not want to undermine all the effort kenneth26 had to do, in starting his PES, going to Classic Germany squad, looking and typing out -- at the same time!!!! :o -- the stats all over again for posting.

kenneth26 I kid because I love. ;) :mrgreen:

andykeikei wrote:Nilton Santos. They are the best fullbacks of all time and they only have 88, 85 and 75 for defense.

PS. I think Nilton Santos is being underrated here and he should have 80 at least to be honest.
:lol: Just went to his thread as I knew something seemed amiss, originally (and still in my own OF) he had 66, then apparently 75, now at 77 -- stand back citizens! The volcano is about to blow! Clearly Brazzper the friendly ghost is behind this. :lol: :P
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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1965-1970

Postby Plava Čigra » 2010 Jan 26, 17:28

Yes, we all know you're a funny man Mr. Oriello :P , but was it possible to write anything that actually has any connection with Schnellinger (apart from sarcastic notes about kenneth26's laziness :P ). :lol:
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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1965-1970

Postby Oriello » 2010 Jan 26, 17:38

:oops:

Sorry, for my giddiness.

I can in principle agree to DEF in the 80's on view if him being a SB first, Maldini being possibly the only real example of a SB worthy of a DEF in the 90's (due to his undeniable capacities as an overall defender). Also maybe MEN 95 is overkill, especially consideringif it was a default value -- but then again I could be wrong. Otherwise I really cannot comment on Schnellinger, I seen him maybe twice for Germany (ITA-DEU 1970)( a friendly against Brazil in the early 60's??) (I seen a bit of the Bulgaria 1970 WC game, and he apparently played :shock: :? ) - and really did not take notice of him, other than his name was mentioned or on the teamsheet for that match.
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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1965-1970

Postby sencesor » 2010 Jan 26, 17:49

Plava Čigra wrote:Yes, we all know you're a funny man Mr. Oriello :P , but was it possible to write anything that actually has any connection with Schnellinger (apart from sarcastic notes about kenneth26's laziness :P ). :lol:

Oriello wrote: :oops:

Sorry, for my giddiness.


I thought it was a well constructed post actually.. :mrgreen:
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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1965-1970

Postby Plava Čigra » 2010 Jan 28, 00:15

Now, I've talked with some people and watched 1 extended highlight video from Schnellinger and 1 extended highlight video from Nilton Santos, and they really were very good in defensive positioning. If we are looking just at Defence, I would say that Schnellinger was a bit better.

If we agree that Maldini should have the highest Defence from all SBs (and he's on 88), then Schnellinger and Nilton Santos should be rated <88. From what I saw and heard about these two great full-backs, I would rate Schnellinger at 86-87 (with small or none Response increase, since full-backs in those days relied more on Defence then on Response) and Nilton Santos at 84-86 (but certainly lower then Schnellinger; also I would go with with some Response increase).

Any thoughts?

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I would like to hear more opinions on Balance and speed stats... ;)
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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1965-1970

Postby Brezza » 2010 Jan 28, 00:30

I don't think I had anything to do with these stats in fact I remember him to be quite an attacking fullback in 1966 :lol: . Players like Nilton Santos Fachetti and Marzolini are pretty hard to rate all excellent going forward like modern day fullbacks but also successful markers. Im sure Nilton's main asset was his attacking threat rather than defending. He completely pioneered the wingback position before Jimmy Armfield. I tried to emulate his defensive capabilities by giving him similar values to what PLF gave prime Javier Zanetti. It was Djalma Santos who was more defensive of the two and completly neutralized Sweden's threat of Hamrin and Liedholm in the world cup for example so they shouldn't be on par in defence, he could have a similar att/def rating with Facchetti though.

I'll try and look into Schnellinger when I can.
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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1965-1970

Postby Plava Čigra » 2010 Jan 28, 00:48

Well, somebody raised Schnellinger's Attack from 58 to 68, before I became a mod in Classics. :P ;)

Mate, I highly appreciate your opinion, but I really do think that Nilton Santos was near or on the same level in defensive positioning as Djalma Santos. He really seems to deserve 80 or more for Defence. I have a book about Miloš Milutinović and he stated that Nilton Santos was one of the greatest defenders he played against and that he respected him for his defensive skill (I think he mentioned something about good marking skills, but I have to check what he exactly said about that). Also, just maybe he could have high green numbers for Attack (but I'm not completely sure about that one).

Just to confirm Oriello's post, Defence really was silently updated (in one of my older OF he had 66, and in current he had 72 until recently).

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Any thoughts about Schnellinger?
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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1965-1970

Postby Brezza » 2010 Jan 28, 01:22

My bad I must of just raised it after seeing him play in 66 then, I didn't completely evaluate him. :oops:

Bah! I know whats wrong with Nilton's stats its his response :shock: . he was an outstanding tactical reader of the game and was known as the 'encyclopedia of football' for goodness sake :lol: so it explains he was able to have the license make constant marauding runs ( pobably the first ever to hit the oppositions byline R.Carlos Style ) and still be a great defender. I don't know why I gave him 83 :roll: it could go up to a low orange value to be honest . Trust me mate ive watched my fair share of 58 and 62 matches and Djalma was slightly better overall defensively in terms of pure positioning and tackling but Nilton was a better reader and anticipated play better. Djalma was an absolute rock, pretty comparable with Lillian Thuram actually although more skillfull. He was brought on for just for one game (the final) in 58 replacing De Sordi just for his defensive qualites so that he could out-mark One of the top 3 wingers in the world at the time in Kurt Hamrin and he did it impeccably. Bobby Charlton also said that he was the one of the greatest defenders he played agaisnt and was also quoted in saying “I have never seen anyone could get pass him even one time."

I still agree with rating Nilton around a 82 def value at the most but with a hefty boost in response as well so he will still probably better overall ;)

Schnellinger played as a left back in 66 and a sweeper for Germany in 1970 and did superbly well in both positions. Off the top of my head I agree with lowering his defence to 86 and a possible decrease in balance and raising ( or re-raising) his attack into the low 70's. I do remember him being abit faster than this though, he had wonderful stamina and desire to win so stam/ment rating are not too far off. I'll try to download and watch some matches of him.
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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1965-1970

Postby Plava Čigra » 2010 Jan 30, 12:07

I've made some changes (based on so far suggestions).

Attack: 68>72,
Defence: 91<86,
Balance: 94<92,
Top Speed: 80>82,
Acceleration: 79>81.

***

@Brezza

What do you think about expanding his Era to 1962-1970? In 1962 he was awarded with German Footballer of the Year award, performed superb in the World Cup and he was subsequently named in the World Cup Dream-Team 11.

Also his ST seems a bit high (regarding his goalscoring record)... When you've watched that games, be sure to state your opinion on that matter. ;)
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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1962-1970

Postby Plava Čigra » 2010 Jun 04, 11:51

Updated a few things after watching some extended highlights (just a partial update, until I manage to find more extended highlights and maybe a few full games). Changes...

1. Extended Era from 1965-1970 to 1962-1970. Added new clubs in the club list.

2. Dribble Speed: 74-->77 - He had solid speed with the ball. Maybe it could go a bit higher, but I need to watch more videos in order to raise it more.

3. Long Pass Speed: 79-->81 - He could put some nice speed into his long passes. I rate him 1 point under Bobby Moore in this ability.

4. Shot Technique: 78-->74,

5. Free Kick Accuracy: 66-->69, Curling: 65-->72 - Similar as Moore, he could take free kicks from 40-45 m range and send a nice long passes into the box. I think his passes had more curling then Moore's (again, he could claim a bit higher value for Curling, but I need to see more videos).

6. Technique: 78-->79 - Nice first touch. I think that 1 point under Moore is a good value for him.

7. Mentality/Tenacity: 95-->90 - I saw that he wasn't the one to give up, often chasing players and going forward to help, but as far as could estimate, he doesn't need red value for Mentality. Maybe we could add more precise value, if somebody else watches more of his games. For now 90 is enough.

8. Changed poster to me. Added every member that contributed to the discussion into the credits.
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Re: Karl-Heinz SCHNELLINGER | 1962-1970

Postby stewie3 » 2013 Nov 03, 13:10

Considering Thuram, Maldini and Vogts defense value have been raised to above 92, the same needs to be done Schnellinger. He needs an update.

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