Miloš Milutinović | 1953-1956

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Miloš Milutinović | 1953-1956

Postby PES Stats Database » 2009 Jun 04, 01:08

Nickname: *Plava Čigra* (literary translation would be *Blond Gyroscope*; I think that most of the foreign journalists called him *Blond Arrow*, same as Di Stefano) | *Plavi Anđeo* (*Blond Angel*)

Club: Partizan Belgrade



Growth type: Early/Peak

Last edited by Plava Čigra on 2009 Nov 24, 15:32, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: Miloš MILUTINOVIĆ | 1952-1958

Postby MasterGonx » 2015 Apr 23, 21:47

This guy cannot be THAT good. With those stats he can be compared to Pele or Maradona and he's nowhere near to their level, update this shit you idiot and dont be biased
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Re: Miloš MILUTINOVIĆ | 1952-1958

Postby Djura11 » 2015 Apr 23, 23:33

Listen you idiot,in his prime,he was in top 5 wingers in world!He's regarded as one of the most talented wingers of all time,and he's the most talented player in Yugoslavia history.Santiago Bernabeu offered him a blanco check(first offer of that kind in football history),to play for Real,but he refused because of comunist regime.He was top scorer of the first ever Champions cup with 8 goals from 4 games.Unfortunately,he never reached his full potential because he got sick from tuberculosis when he was only 26 years old.Things i would update here(based on the stories of older football experts) are balance(81->77),stamina(80->76) ,attack (90->88) and SP(86->84).
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Re: Miloš MILUTINOVIĆ | 1952-1958

Postby VUKDS » 2015 Apr 23, 23:36

Ok, one of the best players of 50's, former Bayern M. starter, Partizan legend and one of the best Yugoslavian players ever is a shit. He isn't the only outdated classic player, so I don't know why you are making such a comment when you don't know absolutely nothing about him at all.
I don't know him very well, but if I find the time I will work on this set in the future. As far as I know, standards for classic players are a bit different, so he might doesn't need such a drastic changes in the key stats.
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Re: Miloš MILUTINOVIĆ | 1952-1958

Postby Djura11 » 2015 Apr 23, 23:53

Great,one normal person to back me up about this player!My grandfather(a Red Star fan) told me about him,he said that he was amazing,that he was faster than any player in our league and that only way to stop him was foul.Also I have Partizan encyclopedia,so if any information about him,or any other Partizan player is needed,I'll be glad to help
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Re: Miloš MILUTINOVIĆ | 1952-1958

Postby VUKDS » 2017 Jul 15, 13:05

Moysis and I were working on this set and I'm gonna post it in the spoiler.
Spoiler: show
Position: SS*, CF, WF
Nationality: Serbian _srb
Age: 20 (xx-yy-1997)

Foot: R
Side: B

Length: 181
Weight: 77

Attack: 90
Defence: 31
Balance: 79
Stamina: 76
Top Speed: 86
Acceleration: 95
Response: 83
Agility: 87
Dribble Accuracy: 92
Dribble Speed: 93
Short Pass Accuracy: 79
Short Pass Speed: 72
Long Pass Accuracy: 78
Long Pass Speed: 71
Shot Accuracy: 87
Shot Power: 82
Shot Technique: 85
Free Kick Accuracy: 78
Curling: 79
Header: 83
Jump: 82
Technique: 91
Aggression: 93
Mentality: 74
Keeper Skills: 50
Team Work: 75

Injury Tolerance: B
Condition/Form: 4
Weak Foot Accuracy: 7
Weak Foot Frequency: 7

Reaction
Dribbling
1-touch Pass
Outside

S01 - Marauding
S05 - 1-touch Play
S06 - Outside curve
S18 - Turning Skills
P05 - Mazing Run

He was combination of SS and WF but many sources are saying that his primar position was a SS.

This set is makes him be one of the best dribblers ever, which is far from reality. Yes, he did have a good close control and he was a tough opponent for that football but he certainly wasn't this good. Eventhough he was able to demonstrate some nice close control, his Agility and Dribble Speed aren't close to this level. His Agility was on the similar level to the young CR7. Written resources are describing him as a dribbling monster and he perhaps was a top notch for that time period but certainly far from DA&DS&AGI - 96&97&97.

We've made a downgrade on some other things, as shooting and passing stats, etc. I don't have a time to write the bigger analysis atm, so I am just gonna post some video details in spoiler.
Spoiler: show
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vP_hptZVoc&feature=youtu.be&t=33 n7 - volley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vP_hpt ... tu.be&t=73 disallowed goal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcFCiSG ... tu.be&t=49 lost duel on the left side
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FiVrOF ... u.be&t=271 n18 - dribbling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-wRUct ... tu.be&t=25 goal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y352YGd ... e=youtu.be fk goal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYe9aO5 ... tu.be&t=50 goal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbGNTGG ... tu.be&t=79 dribbling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3HP7gJ ... utu.be&t=9 action
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Re: Miloš Milutinović | 1952-1958

Postby vinnie » 2017 Jul 16, 06:38

i was going to ask if you have more examples of his dribbling, my impression based on the moments you linked is that he has good control but nothing special, as well that he's not that great of an athlete. it's hard to judge because there's not much to judge, but he doesn't look that interesting.

then i scrolled up and looked at the current set... damn i've never seen that we had a set like this before, that's truly a monster.. based on the glimpses you've linked he's nothing even near that.

i haven't looked at the set you've linked in your spoiler yet, is there any more examples or videos of his dribbling?
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Re: Miloš Milutinović | 1952-1958

Postby VUKDS » 2017 Jul 16, 07:45

Unfortunantely not, video material for the 50's is a quite limited. We've barely found a couple of highlights. I've been looking for every game in his career, as I have a list of them, but as I've said, video material is quite limited. Club games contain just a goals. On the other side, there is possibility to find some other details in the NT highlights but I can tell you that Milutinovic was barely touching the ball on the videos I've found. Bobek and some other players were totally a n1.

It's quite difficult to make these kind of players. I mean, video material is quite limited, for start. We could crop some video details but we are not gone get a full picture of the specific player, far from that.

You are right about Milutinovic. I need to emphasize the fact that I've found something like 5 highlights of the NT games in which he was participating and we can make some raw conclusions based on that. First, it's obvious that he wasn't a main player in Yugoslavia, far from that tbh. Unlike the ones like Bobek for example, Milutinovic wasn't making such a big impact. On the other hand, he was quite important in Partizan, according to facts. Even though he did not take any league title with them and he even didn't score in derby vs Red Star, he was a scorer against Sporting in the first League of Champions(European Cup) game ever, both in Lisabon and Belgrade, if I'm not mistaking. Also, he was a scorer against Real.

Except of that, like Moysis and you have said, he just doesn't look like some dribbling devil nor a top notch athlete. Moysis was right when he's said that he reminds a bit on Bale, but with a better technical skills and technical creativity than him. His control perhaps was something for that time period but it looks like his Acceleration took an important role in his play on the wing. I was expecting much faster and a player with the much better technical abilities after seeing the set and reading that extensive description from the first page, but what could I do, now I can see that it's smarter to take a look at player by your own before reading any texts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKS1giBy5EI& Take a look at this player. He does not have a set on the PSD, his video material is also a bit limited but it looks like he was a different dimension at some dribbling and speed aspects, if we compare him to Milutinovic.

Like you've just said, this set look a way out of reality. Due a lack of video material, Moysis and I wanted to bring a new standards into the set and make some proper changes which might be fine for the start.

All in all, feel free to make a concrete suggestions.

Edit: I see that description had gone somehow since the last time I've checked it up. I am not for deleting that kind of stuff. Cigra was working hard to collect all of that and it's at least interesting to read something about that.
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Re: Miloš Milutinović | 1952-1958

Postby Moysís » 2017 Jul 16, 09:47

Well, it's obviously that he was a class player, even in these some short clips we can see that he had nice movements with ball, fast player, who based his play on fantastic burst. The main problem for him is his inconsistency, he had some serious injury during career and he never reached full potential. VUKDS has well said that he was similar to young C. Ronaldo, he looked pretty slender on the field and the ball was glued it to his feet, but he was so directed and didn't hesitate attack opponent on what more simple way in any situation.

https://youtu.be/3D_CuY-Og9Q?t=371 - some cross from the right flank
https://youtu.be/3D_CuY-Og9Q?t=464 - here we can see his off ball speed and famous burst (already posted but we can see that he was really explosive player)
https://youtu.be/3D_CuY-Og9Q?t=641 - another example of his speed and fighting for the ball (btw. I think we've went too low with his MEN, in some other actions I've saw his willing to fight for every ball when he lost duel or on those no one balls..
https://youtu.be/3D_CuY-Og9Q?t=829 - here is slow motion but we can see his tendency to always past defender with burst on the ball..

Well, it's pity to don't have more materials of this player since he was really interesting and real talent of Yugoslav football. Everything new I find I'll post it here..
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Re: Miloš Milutinović | 1952-1958

Postby vinnie » 2017 Jul 16, 21:53

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVF3DclhsQw&t=2m33s

looks like him here, a bit cumbersome on the turn, and doesn't do well at all when trying to beat the fullback while keeping the ball close- the ball gets quite away from him and he looks quite stiff and clubfooted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVF3DclhsQw&t=4m28s

doesn't really do anything dangerous on the ball here- gives it away cheaply via inaccurate pass.

milos turns in the box, but doesn't really seem to have any intention to do more than that after his turn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVF3DclhsQw&t=10m21s

an interesting way to look at this moment below is to consider that he lets the ball carry towards the touchline rather than attacking the ball at an angle towards the goal. By the time the Milos touches the ball he's lost any position to attack with a dribble and is forced to a low percentage cross that is blocked, but he certainly had the space and angle to run towards the goal and recieve the ball only 2 or so yards outside the 18 yard box with the defender on his heels- he chose not to do that and let the ball run wide out for another 5 or so yards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVF3DclhsQw&t=11m58s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVF3DclhsQw&t=20m54s
he does very poorly here in my opinion. If he is someone with red da (for me red dad is out of question by now, orange da too) or someone with red/orange acceleration/top speed, that level of dribbler would attack down the line. look at the defender's body position, he was very slightly behind for if Milos exploded forwarded, and quickly corrected his positioning recognizing his own mistake and anticipating that Milos may try to attack the space he left down the line; when the defender did close down on Milos, the adjusting touch by Milos to try to go inside is simply too sloppy and lacking quality of precision. The factor that must be considered which can forgive this display slightly is the fact that this moment is in extra time,, so a full 90 minutes have already passed and stamina now comes into question

However, let's take a look at someone who DOES look like a player worth incredible speed ratings, probably high reds acc and close to red ts- this #7 for Hungary in a friendly against Yugoslavia in 1956:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDcdzTdXkpM&t=0m12s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDcdzTdXkpM&t=0m40s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDcdzTdXkpM&t=2m17s <- this part of the video seems to be sped up about 20% for whatever reason, but what is important is to see the way his speed compares to the defenders and the way he uses it.

Overall one can see a very clear difference in how speed is used, and the advantage in speed against how Milutinovic displays speed. Out of the two, this hungarian #7 is much much more deserving and closer to the speed values in the current Milutinovic set.


*actually i realised afterwards that these two moments below i linked of the yugoslavian #10 are not of Milutinovic- rather it's of Bobek. It was my mistake to presume that the #10 is Militunovic due to the fact that Milos wore #10 at the 1954 World cup. Milos is actually the #7 in this match. so actually the impressive dribbling display is not Milutinovic, it is Bobek

i'm not sure if this is miloes but here is an impressive 1-touch pass, there's good skill and accuracy here in my opinion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vP_hptZVoc&t=0m20s

This is good capture of good dribbling, he slips, but has decent maneuvering afterwards with the ball to keep possesion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vP_hptZVoc&t=1m00s

i've noticed that Milos seems to have liked to pass 1-touch, prior to this i saw all of his attempts as actually being very unaccurate, but this is a clearly excellent display at least.
** the impression remains, as the 1-touch pass of great quality was actually Bobek. It is still true that Milutinovic likes to pass with his first touch, but the example of a good quality resulting pass is not his, and so the only examples i can see from him are all poor passes. The dribbling example then is not Milos either, it is Bobek.

This is the actual Milutinovic that i have corrected, the # 7 of this match:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vP_hptZVoc&t=0m35s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vP_hptZVoc&t=1m14s

In the dribbling display of who is actually Bobek, the #10, Milos is the one one gives him the pass to start that passage, and is also the teammate moving in the background trying to give support.

this video below is not directly in 1954, there are some more videos from 1956-1958, which seem to be within what's been marked as his set's era? but i'm not sure if that's beyond the time frame you're trying to represent


This is a good display of how his dribbling speed really bogs down his pace on the ball quite alot actually (if this is him as the #10):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3meCe_CVZmU&t=0m24s

cristiano ronaldo's DS was just taken down to 74, and i can really understand why- as it's no longer really a consistent part of his playstyle; certainly though i'd say cristiano still has moments where he does dribble with very good speed, and i'd say he hasn't clearly been slow limited as what i see there in this example above.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVF3DclhsQw&t=3m02s

i've noticed this #11 pretty frequently, he does more to attack with the ball and dribble than what i've seen from milos, and this above is quite impressive speed- though he loses dribbling control very clumsiliy when he tries to initiate his series of attacking dribbles against the second defender facing him.

here he gets by his man and scores a good shot (zebec?):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVF3DclhsQw&t=8m55s

and going back to the germany match, this video has a slightly better contrast than the one you linked moysis, and you can see more clearly here this neat moment where zebez takes a dropping clearance very well with one touch, and then takes two good dribbling touches before passes to Milutinovic. Milos 1-touch pass is then well off of the mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjtrmySebnQ&t=3m14s



unrelated mostly... we all like to remark about reckless or braindead defenders of today... i wonder what jurgens would say about this example considering how he sees ramos?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTM_tnyU29c&t=0m32s

looks like awful defending. a reminder perhaps of the standard of play.



What should be the length of the time period of this set? Do you think any moments between 1952-1958 are okay to use to try to get a sense of him as a player or should footage being looked at be limited to 54-56?

I may also try to see if there are more moments that can be seen from if there are any partizan highlight videos. Also like i've said i'm still avoiding to see the set you and Moysis have put together so i can offer an independent opinion.
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Re: Miloš Milutinović | 1952-1958

Postby VUKDS » 2017 Jul 16, 23:28

It's great to see this section finally being active, it's been a long time since anything has been touched.

It's just a hell of the job to do this kind of players. I mean, it's even hard to track their numbers. :lol: I feel bad for not mentioning it, but he's mostly been n18 in the NT, except of that friendly game vs England in 1954. when he was wearing n7. I don't know if that's him against Germany making that unprecise 1-touch pass. Bobek was mostly wearing n10 but I can see that Bobek wasn't in starting 11 back then.

On the other side, on 20.54 vs Brazil it wasn't Milutinovic, player with the number 20 was Dionizije Dvornic. I was also surprised when I saw that example. Also, I have to say that I couldn't find these 20 min highlights vs Brazil for some reason lol. I am also not sure if he was a player with the n10 with the ball on one situation.

Other examples are a spot on :) From Partizan games, you could find a few of Partizan vs Crvena zvezda highlights. Some guy was posting Partizan vs Hajduk Split, but it is a slideshow, not a video. Also, I think that there are a few examples of European games, vs Honved I think(friendly), vs Real and 2 minute video vs Sporting.

http://www.reprezentacija.rs/index.php? ... le&id=1314 list of his NT games and statistics
http://partizan.rs/archive-since-1945/ list of seasons. you can find every game of the specific season here

statistics from his Partizan career -
1957-58 FK Partizan Beograd YUG 1 0 0
1956-57 FK Partizan Beograd YUG 1 17 7
1955-56 FK Partizan Beograd YUG 1 20 13
1954-55 FK Partizan Beograd YUG 1 11 9
1953-54 FK Partizan Beograd YUG 1 24 14
1952-53 FK Partizan Beograd YUG 1 11 6
1952 FK Partizan Beograd YUG 1 4 4

If we want to standardize his era, we could start with the 1953-1954(first available videos we've got are from 1954, except of his crossing assist in derby match against Red Star in 1953, I think). It could be 1953 or 1954 - 1956 or 1957. I think that his lung problem started being dangerous for his health in 1957, not sure though.


All in all, I am waiting for your next post and a concrete suggestions. :) There is a possibility that Moysis and I were a bit conservative with some downgrades. We've finished it quite fast(actually, Moysis has finished the set a few months ago). It's gonna be a much more precise if three of us finish it together. There is possibility that I am a bit influenced by the current set and the descriptions so I wasn't going in the further analysis whether it is massively wrong and overrated or not. At least I know what should I do with the following classic players.

It's quite surprising that it's hard to find any of dribbling or speed examples on these highlights, and he was described as a dribbling master and someone who was reading the movement of the defenders during the dribbling.
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Re: Miloš Milutinović | 1952-1958

Postby Moysís » 2017 Jul 17, 08:44

Good analysis vinnie.. but we must be careful here since it is very sensitive area in his case.. its too hard to judge from those short clips where he hasn't been in the forefront in NT like VUKDS already mentioned.. guys like Bobek, Vukas and Mitic had higher impact in this team.. I repeat again, it is pity we don't have materials from Partizan side where he has been on fire in almost every match..

vinnie wrote:This is a good display of how his dribbling speed really bogs down his pace on the ball quite alot actually (if this is him as the #10):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3meCe_CVZmU&t=0m24s


btw. this player with #10 is Vukas not Milutinovic.. his era should be 1953-1956. I think in this period he was on his very short peak..
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Re: Miloš Milutinović | 1952-1958

Postby vinnie » 2017 Jul 17, 20:53

VUKDS wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKS1giBy5EI& Take a look at this player. He does not have a set on the PSD, his video material is also a bit limited but it looks like he was a different dimension at some dribbling and speed aspects, if we compare him to Milutinovic.

Like you've just said, this set look a way out of reality. Due a lack of video material, Moysis and I wanted to bring a new standards into the set and make some proper changes which might be fine for the start.


yes i agree, this sestic player is a much much more impressive dribbler- someone that immediately looks like high orange+ da.


I tried one more time to see if there were any more useful highlights i could find, i found just these examples:

1958 wc vs france
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLaOthNwX3k&t=7m03s small dribble, give and go, tackled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLaOthNwX3k&t=12m21s receives kick off and makes long pass with left foot - example of wff/wfa


1954
milos identified: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G00-iRrP3n4&t=0m07s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G00-iRrP3n4&t=1m18s starts counter, runs down and recieves ball
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G00-iRrP3n4&t=1m40s turns on ball- you can see very slight sluggishness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G00-iRrP3n4&t=1m52s two shots- shaky camera
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G00-iRrP3n4&t=2m06s tracks back and defends


1956
milos #7?? unsure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksnxyA5k3SM&t=2m42s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksnxyA5k3SM&t=2m48s
is this milos??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksnxyA5k3SM&t=7m25s player tries to dribble, is not agile and is tackled


I watched Yugoslavia against france Highlights to just get a further sense of him- and at 1958 this was before his tuberculosis, and when he was still only 25 years old.

In that match's highlights Kopa reminded me that despite any era differences, one can still see great dribblers in the same era as the one Milutinovic.

I marked these downs as contrasts to what moments Moysis and you have gathered of Milos, and the moments that i've seen of him as well.

kopa :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLaOthNwX3k&t=4m26s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLaOthNwX3k&t=8m14s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLaOthNwX3k&t=8m41s

that first example is very subtle, but i see the care in the very small adjustments and the fluidity of turns and movements on the ball, as well as the balance of his dribbling movements. This is a top notch dribbler that is probably worth red dribbling accuracy. Comparing to Milos i think there is quite a difference in ability.

I have repeatedly made mistakes about who is who when i was watching highlights, i'm glad you two corrected my errors. So some of the poor dribbling examples i posted must be ignored because it's not actually him, but i've now noticed though that also alot of the very good moments where there is good dribbling showing impressive or dangerous dribbling techniques are mostly NOT Milos, but rather Bobek, or Zebec.

Except of that, like Moysis and you have said, he just doesn't look like some dribbling devil nor a top notch athlete. Moysis was right when he's said that he reminds a bit on Bale, but with a better technical skills and technical creativity than him. His control perhaps was something for that time period but it looks like his Acceleration took an important role in his play on the wing. I was expecting much faster and a player with the much better technical abilities after seeing the set and reading that extensive description from the first page, but what could I do, now I can see that it's smarter to take a look at player by your own before reading any texts.


that's not a bad comparision, the key to me though is that he is very good with both feet, so he has access to more dribbling angles and options than even a better dribbler who depends more on his dominant foot. This ability makes Milos quite shifty, hard to predict, and hard to defend. I find him to be pretty unagile though, and i don't see any evidence of excellent dribbling speed, despite like you two have said, the supposed descriptions by of his prowess.

one other aspect i notice slightly is a moment and subsequently more moments where Milos is tracking back and doing a pretty good job in defending and helping his team win the ball or keep shape.

I have avoided seeing the set you and Moysis have put together to try to give you two my independent thoughts on Milos, on aspects that are more or less impossible to accurately judge due to how limited the amount of footage we can use is, i either went with the set as it is or leaned heavily towards the current set. this is somewhat where i think based on the limited footage available i would rate Milos:

Spoiler: show
Attack: 87
Defence: 40
Balance: 81
Stamina: 83
Top Speed: 86
Acceleration: 88
Response: 81
Agility: 75
Dribble Accuracy: 84
Dribble Speed: 81
Short Pass Accuracy: 69
Short Pass Speed: 74
Long Pass Accuracy: 73
Long Pass Speed: 70
Shot Accuracy: 91
Shot Power: 84
Shot Technique: 88
Free Kick Accuracy: 72
Curling: 76
Header: 79
Jump: 82
Technique: 86
Aggression: 86
Mentality: 90
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 78

Condition/Fitness: 4
Weak Foot Accuracy: 8
Weak Foot Frequency: 8

1-touch pass
scoring
remove dribbling star
remove possesion star


There are very wide variations on alot of areas for his set, so some values like aggression are not exact numbers, but rather to represent roughly the area he is in for each ability.

i'll take a look at your set now VUKDS and Moysis after i've posted this. like i said there are alot of areas i simply cannot accurately give any opinion about due to the lack of good quality footage, on these areas i am fine to go with you two's suggestions on how the set should be.





by the way VUKDS, on the first link you sent me at the reprezentacija website for the list of national team apperances there is a KG,KSP, PG, and SP before each match, what do these abbreviations stand for?

anyways what you've said here Moysis is very true:
Moysis wrote:we must be careful here since it is very sensitive area in his case.. its too hard to judge from those short clips where he hasn't been in the forefront in NT like VUKDS already mentioned.. guys like Bobek, Vukas and Mitic had higher impact in this team.. I repeat again, it is pity we don't have materials from Partizan side where he has been on fire in almost every match..


yes it is very hard at all to judge, i am glad the two of you have been able to show very clearly though the differences between what he showed through real footage compared to what this set says he should be capable of. A player worthy of this set would never be second fiddle in any team, or never have less than the most impact on a team he plays for. This set makes one of the greatest dribblers of all time, probably the best winger of all time, and it seems what little footage is available shows him as pretty far from that. He's a good winger, but more about scoring and poaching it seems than making a difference on the ball with dribbling, and it seems like he's quite far in a lot of areas from what this set describes him as being. we can all see it in the examples we've found, any time he gets the ball he is usually not moving more than 2 metres before passing the ball away. maybe he was something greater at partizan, but at the very least we can make the logical conclusions about how great he could not have been based on how he is used at the Yugoslavian NT during his prime.
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Re: Miloš Milutinović | 1952-1958

Postby Moysís » 2017 Jul 17, 22:01

In that match vs Honved I don't think it is Milos with #7.. mostly he wear #8 in Partizan as right second striker in old WM system while in NT he has knew wear #7 as well #18.. in match vs Hungary from 1956. Milos is a guy with #7 also in all clips we can recognize Milos as a blonde guy.. Zebec has been the guy vs Hungary where you've said that he is not agile and slow in movements..
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Re: Miloš Milutinović | 1952-1958

Postby vinnie » 2017 Jul 18, 01:07

If he wore #8 then you must be right, but if i compare the appearance of the players, that #7 looks a bit like Milos, while the #8 seems too short to be Milos. The #7 is blonde as well isn't he? while the #8 has darker hair than #7.

If Milos is the #8 that means in the first clip he doesn't carry the ball and move to the front, he's the one who passes to the up to the front (with a good pass).

if i'm wrong then i'll edit and make a note that those aren't examples of him. I have been making efforts to make sure it's Milos that i'm talking about in the examples i've posted but it is very hard to tell due to the quality of the footage available. I was looking for websites before i posted that had listed what numbers he wore in each season to confirm who was who, but there doesn't seem to be any records available online (at least, in english).

the clip you mention is zebec i was pretty skeptical about as well, enough that i didn't really use it to form my opinion anyway. If i just discredit all of the examples ive tried to find and just rely on what you and VUKDS have found, my opinion does not change too much- though this is still extremely limited footage as you've said.
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Re: Miloš Milutinović | 1952-1958

Postby VUKDS » 2017 Jul 18, 04:03

Great job as always, Vinnie. :)

I will try to resume a things and write a my point of view. As I've said, I was quite influenced by a fame which has been made about Milutinovic here and by the current set. Also, I have to say that I am stuck with time. I need to study for my exams so I can not focus a hundred percent on every possible detail but I'll try to fix it.


by the way VUKDS, on the first link you sent me at the reprezentacija website for the list of national team apperances there is a KG,KSP, PG, and SP before each match, what do these abbreviations stand for?


PU, KG, KSP and SP is NT related.
''PU'' - friendly
''KG'' - no idea. only 5 games of that type.
''KSP'' - qualifications for the world cup
''SP'' - world cup


GP and GS is club related. GP is ,,game played'' and GS ,,goal scored''. It's not said whether they are mentioning only league games, or they are counting cup + international games in it. You've got his Partizan statistics in the spoiler:
Spoiler: show
1952/1953 season - from 22 Partizan's league games, he's played 11 and scored 6 goals

1953/1954 season - Partizan has played 26 league games and scored 77 goals. Milutinovic was involved in 24 of them and he's scored 14 goals

1954/1955 season - Partizan: 26 games and 55 goals. Milutinovic: 11 games and 9 goals.

1955/1956 season - Partizan: 26 games and 65 goals. Milutinovic: 20 games and 13 goals.

1956/1957 season - Partizan: 26 games and 51 goal. Milutinovic: 17 games and 7 goals


We can see that Partizan was the most effective at seasons in which Milutinovic was the most involved. We are talking about 53/54 and 55/56. Later I am going to check the other Ptz top players from that period and compare their statistics for the mentioned seasons and in general.


Statistics for his complete career at Partizan:
Spoiler: show
Competition - GP - GS
International (perhaps international friendlies??) 50 49
Champions Cup 4 8
Yugoslavia cup10 10
Friendly for veterans 1 0
Friendly games 61 111
League games 87 53

Total 213 231

Total without friendlies 152 120

Goals per game: 0.79


NT statististics:
Spoiler: show
33 games, 10 goals
0.30 per game



Okay, now we are only gonna use his team mates from 52/53 season 'cause that was a core for the following seasons. We are talking about Bobek, Zebec and Valok. They are not an identical type of players but I am trying to compare their goal influence.

Bobek:
Spoiler: show
Partizan statistic by season

1956-57 (Partizan total - 26&51. Milutinovic - 17&7) 15 3
1955-56(Partizan total - 26&65. Milutinovic - 20&13) 17 9
1954-55(Partizan total - 26&55. Milutinovic - 11&9) 18 16
1953-54(Partizan total - 26&77. Milutinovic - 24&14) 23 21
1952-53(Milutinovic: 11&6) 12 7


Partizan total

International 106 83
Champions Cup 4 1
Yugoslavian cup 37 48
Veteran friendly 1 0
Friendly games 134 175
League games 195 118
Middle European Cup 1 0

Total 478 425

Total statistics without friendlies - 343&250

Goals per game: 0.73


NT statistics
:
63&30

Goals per game:
0.48


Zebec:
Spoiler: show
Partizan statistic by season:
1956-57(Partizan total - 26&51. Milutinovic - 17&7) 18 8
1955-56(Partizan total - 26&65. Milutinovic - 20&13) 20 0
1954-55(Partizan total - 26&55. Milutinovic - 11&9) 15 1
1953-54(Partizan total - 26&77. Milutinovic - 24&14) 23 15
1952-53(Milutinovic: 11&6) 20 5

Partizan total:
Internation: 59 30
Champions cupal 4 0
Yugoslavian cup 15 11
Friendly games 59 43
League games 128 36
Middle European cup 5 0

Total 270 120

Without friendlies: 211&77

Goal per game: 0.36

NT statistics:
65 games & 11 goals

Goal per game: 0.17


Valok, although he wasn't on their level:
Spoiler: show
Partizan statistics by season:
1956-57(Partizan total - 26&51. Milutinovic - 17&7) 22 10
1955-56(Partizan total - 26&65. Milutinovic - 20&13) 18 4
1954-55(Partizan total - 26&55. Milutinovic - 11&9) 19 8
1953-54(Partizan total - 26&77. Milutinovic - 24&14) 7 3
1952-53(Milutinovic: 11&6) 16 15

Partizan total:
Dunavian cup 1 0
International 83 66
Champions cup 3 0
Yugoslavian cup 30 35
Veteran friendly 1 4
Friendly games 180 207
League games 167 97
Middle European cup 5 2

Total 470 411

Without friendlies: 289&200

Goal per game: 0.69

Nt statistics:
6&2

Goal per game: 0.33


It seems that 53/54 season wasn't all on him. Bobek and Zebec had a better statistic.
Spoiler: show
Partizan in total: 77 goals.
Milutinovic - 24 games and 14 goals ; 0.58 per game
Bobek - 23&21 ; 0.91 per game
Zebec - 23&15 ; 0.65 per game

These three players have scored 50 goals of team's 77. Statistically, we are coming to conclusion that Milutinovic had the worst statistic of them players, so he certainly wasn't n1 in the team back then.


It's a different story with 55/56 season. According to this, Zebec did nothing at all and Bobek was a bit worse than usual. Although he didn't have a crazy statistic like Bobek's in 53/54, he was the best of these three players.
Spoiler: show
Partizan in total: 65 goals.
Milutinovic - 20&13 ; 0.65 per game
Bobek - 17&9 ; 0.53 per game - in his worst season, he's had a better statistic than Milutinovic's in 53/54
Zebec - 20&0 ; /


All in all, judging be the statistics, Milutinovic had the best goal per game ratio and he has played the least games of mentioned players. However, he was some kind of leader only in the one season, when Bobek got older. Even Zebec, guy who was rotating from position to the position for the complete career, was ahead Milutinovic at Milos's second best season.
I need to say that he did not score any goal in derby games against Red Star. In his period, Partizan took only 2 cups and none of league trophies but they were a winning against Red Star brutally at that time period. But yet, Milos did not score any goal. I can say for sure that he's had a one assist at the ''7-1 derby''and commentator has mentioned that he was a best player in one of them.

At the national team, he's had the second best statistics of the mentioned players(Bobek was a n1) but as we've saw, Milutinovic wasn't making such a big impact. He did not have so many balls and Vinnie has already said some things about his style of play back then.


Now I am going to regroup the videos based on the mentioned videos. I've checked the numbers and everything, it's based on the situations cut by Moysis, Vinnie and me.

Dribbling situations&agility&decisions making:
Spoiler: show
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FiVrOFZZUg&feature=youtu.be&t=271 nutmeg. it didn't come from the possession, pure control and agility. he's wanted to make first touch with the chest but the ball went on side. lb was following him and milutinovic demonstrated a move that every other winger would have done. all in all, even at this example we can see some things, even this could show us that he was rather some kind of athletic winger than a player who would is doing something on the pure control and agility.
decent example of his acc, although it wasn't anything impressive. you've already posted an examples of red acc. btw, this wasn't a huge space to run across

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbGNTGG ... tu.be&t=79 here we could see a decent close control. it's not a top notch but it looks nice, although defensive players don't look quite good. perhaps he's made a step or two more than he was supposed to but he's saved a ball in the dangerous area and passed it to his team mate. also he isn't using an agility or DS here, nor he is planning to shot on goal. it's like he was just playing with the ball here, without being such a productive. i don't think that we could see things like this one regularly from the other top players of that time. there were a few more situations in which he was keeping the ball longer than he should. at the nt games, it wasn't such a productive. he could do a dribbling in the place and then just pass the ball to the team mate, without any concrete plan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVF3DclhsQw&t=2m33s we could be making comments on the pitch quality and the type of ball but look at this first touch. he is slowing the action down and then, like you've said, we can see what type of agility did he have. it's nothing spectacular really. vinnie's analyzed this situations quite good -
looks like him here, a bit cumbersome on the turn, and doesn't do well at all when trying to beat the fullback while keeping the ball close- the ball gets quite away from him and he looks quite stiff and clubfooted.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVF3DclhsQw&t=4m28s two players in front of him. he is slowing down with the ball and unsuccessfully trying to pass the ball. . he is again slowing it down and this is another example which is telling us something about his abilities. although he is being too far from the goal and perhaps in the difficult position, great dribbler and a direct player wouldn't have reacted like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVF3DclhsQw&t=10m21s he is attracting a two players and saving the ball for the team mate but again he is not being concrete. another situation in which he is not demonstrating any crazy abilities, even contrary. we could saw bobek, zebec and a few more players doing something with the ball
but milutinovic, like it's been said, he is more making the trouble by his running into the space, positioning, shooting, instead of doing something with the ball in his feets. based on the videos we've find, it's sure that he is able to make some nice dribbles, in the space mostly, but when he is placed on the goal and when he needs to think quickly, he seems wasteful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVF3DclhsQw&t=11m58s another similar situation. first we need to mention his positioning, which is saying a lot. it certainly wasn't productive, he wasn't focused on goal, he was positioned as a sideback and it's like he was planning to cross since the beginning. really, when he's got a little space or when he's on the side, playing against an organized opponent, it looks like he isn't planning to dribble, like he is planning to pass the ball since he see that it's a tough position. who knows, perhaps even the Yugoslavian league level affected on him a bit. perhaps he was dealing quite well with the home league sb's in situations like this one.
all in all, based on this example we could conclude that he was poorly positioned since the start. even if we forget about this and take the other situations into account, he certainly doesn't look like someone with who can harm you with the dribbling and think fast in the difficult situations. his agility definitely doesn't look good and his DS is questionable. on the other side, DA is certainly not a top class but I have some doubts about it. i have an impression that he is better than 84, and i am not only influenced by Serbian written sources which were describing as a top class dribbler.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLaOthNwX3k&t=7m03s you are right, that was him. he was n7 in this game. [spoiler]
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/matches/ro ... index.html
typical milutinovic, he exploits these pass and go situations whenever he could.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcFCiSG ... tu.be&t=49 trying to overrun a player with the acc but being destroyed in the duel(tbh, he was accelerating, brazilian defender is tough in duel and this was a logical)


https://youtu.be/3D_CuY-Og9Q?t=646 really good acc. what would you rate him based on this? looks like an orange to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D_CuY- ... u.be&t=829 nice balance, again trying to overrun a player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYe9aO5 ... tu.be&t=50 he is in the box, unmarked at the beggining. nice first touch with the chest, he slightly moves the ball on the side and scoring the goal. this is one of the rare examples when his technical abilities were a productive, although this is another example of pure close control on the small space, in the dangerous position. there are a more examples of his pure DA than his DA combined with Agility and DS.
looks like he wasn't running with the ball while keeping the quality control. he was mostly kicking the ball and running for it, when being far of the goal. on the other side, like i've said, there are a few examples of a decent DA in the tight positions.



goal situations
Spoiler: show
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vP_hptZVoc&feature=youtu.be&t=33 he was unmarked here. connecting with the cross and shooting a volley

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vP_hpt ... tu.be&t=73 disallowed goal. idk if it was due an offside or a foul. all in all, he is again winning the goal situation by his movement and showing a nice toughness in duel, despite the fact that defender is not pressuring him serious(looks like that guy has tried to win the fould here)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-wRUct ... tu.be&t=25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYe9aO5 ... tu.be&t=50 first goal that doesn't have a pure movement elements inside of it. he is using his technical abilities a bit on here


I think I've crop the most important details.

All in all, we have a player who was making the danger mostly with the movement into the space. He certainly did not have this good DA+DS+AGI combo. His DA is the best of these three elements, IMO. He was often slowing the game, like he was used on a slower tempo. Sometimes he was too stuck on the wing, it's like he wasn't too confident to make an impact, to try the dribble, etc. On the other side, his dribbling ability wasn't that impressive. It was based on the dribbling into the space and we need to say that he was trying to win the players with his acc whenever he could.

Small part of Vinnie's comment, which is very good description of this player -
A player worthy of this set would never be second fiddle in any team, or never have less than the most impact on a team he plays for. This set makes one of the greatest dribblers of all time, probably the best winger of all time, and it seems what little footage is available shows him as pretty far from that. He's a good winger, but more about scoring and poaching it seems than making a difference on the ball with dribbling, and it seems like he's quite far in a lot of areas from what this set describes him as being. we can all see it in the examples we've found, any time he gets the ball he is usually not moving more than 2 metres before passing the ball away. maybe he was something greater at partizan, but at the very least we can make the logical conclusions about how great he could not have been based on how he is used at the Yugoslavian NT during his prime.


It's nice that Vinnie has made an independent set, which is breaking the lines.

Here are my final suggestions. It's not an easy job to create a totally precise set. I think that we shouldn't be so harsh at some areas. For example, we could say that there are an indication that his DA was a really decent, especially if we take into the account a low/average DS&AGI combo. It's always funny when you compare an actual footage with the old resources which are totally overrating a classic players. For example, this set would have totally been on the place if some of the reports would have been close to reality.
I'd like to see what do Moysis and Vinnie think about it. Also, I'd like to hear your thoughts about Mentality. He looks like far from orange to me.
Spoiler: show
Attack: 88-89
Defence: 37
Balance: 81
Stamina: 76?
Top Speed: 86
Acceleration: 91
Response: 83
Agility: 77-80
Dribble Accuracy: 88(89?)
Dribble Speed: 81-83
Short Pass Accuracy: 74
Short Pass Speed: 71
Long Pass Accuracy: 77
Long Pass Speed: 70
Shot Accuracy: 87
Shot Power: 83
Shot Technique: 86
Free Kick Accuracy: 78
Swerve: 77
Header: 79
Jump: 83
Technique: 86-88
Aggression: high yellow-low orange
Mentality: 78?
GKS: 50
Teamwork: 75-77
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Re: Miloš Milutinović | 1952-1958

Postby vinnie » 2017 Jul 18, 07:03

great job summing things up VUKDS. it was very interesting to see the comparison of scoring between the four players.

when i revisited that acceleration moment in the germany match while i was going through your summary, i was reminded of my first impression, where i thought of 88 ts 90 acceleration. we have the same perception of that example, i also see it as a very good acceleration to the loose ball. i had gone lower though after when i saw some moments where he seemed sluggish or a little bit less explosive than an orange, and had gotten away from the initial impression i had. I think i was also very influenced by how Milos compares against that hungarian #7- i was thinking if Milos is a 90 acc, what is this guy? 98/99? (that is not out of the question, but gives an idea of the difference i see between the two). I also had to remind myself about my rule about judging speed with video footage of questionable quality. sometimes if a video has problems with how many frames it has, or if the quality is too low, an 82 top speed player will look like near oranges, and a barely oranges speed player high reds- this is the effect from blurring or moments where a video may skip frames, it makes a player, or the speed of general play look much faster than reality, and this effect is very hard to judge objectively.

I have no problem with orange acceleration though, the key matter is how it combines with his skill set. 86 ts with 90, or 91 acc, that is just about exactly how i see his speed being possibly within.

which is why i felt comfortable with a much lower agility. I think if we know that he does have a good burst and good top speed, so then if he is too good at turning then it is too easy to create situations where his speed can be used. This also is what made me question why we don't see any great dribbling moments in highlights videos; we see such dribbling from his teammates, and from his opponents, but not Milos. When i go over the links you've summed up, i think of his good speed, but i see a real sluggishness in turning, and then a hesitance to attack with the ball. The first behaviour to me is due to a lower agility, and the second behaviour i can't be sure about based on the little footage we have. Milos could be choosing not to dribble, perhaps he has a playstyle that is limiting more by choice and attitude than capability, or he may be truly limited by a lack of ability to dribble with meaningful speed; my suspicion is that the way he plays and the lack of attacking dribbling is a sign of low dribbling speed, especially when one considers his very good top speed and burst- it may even be that the best moments of Milos' dribbling haven't been included in the videos of the matches he plays in (but this is the very least plausible explanation).

Having just one full match of semi-decent quality to study would be enormously useful to determine more clearly on this matter, but unfortunately there is nothing currently available. On the youtube account, "joefa's world cup history", there is a full match available for Hungary in 1954, another for Germany, and another for Brazil. I don't know where or how this footage can be found, but there may be the possibility that in the future there may be full yugoslavian matches from the mid 1950's uploaded online. In that moment we can deliberate more clearly and with more precision.

Based on what we have i think we can make rough judgements, but precision is impossible only due to the lack of material. Due to those terms, i have no problems with erring on the generous side, possibly giving more than what my own instinct thinks is necessary, but cannot be any more confirmed than the opposite opinion. regarding that latest set you've produced VUKDS, i'd have no problem with any choice, i have my own impression, but the difference is small and largely based on things i cannot confirm.

My own impression is that the more i think about it the more i think he must have a quite low dribbling speed. One of the few moments that made me reconsider was the moment in the partizan-honved match, where the #7 brought the ball 15 yards up the field, passed, and went to the corner to recieve. I thought this was Milos and considered the ease with which the #7 moved the ball quickly in the counter attack without being sloppy as maybe deserving more than the white Dribbling speed impression i had had growing. Well Moysis has appeared to have corrected that the #7 is not Milos, that Milos was the #8. Well then if i revisit the other dribbling moments and remove that positive moment of dribbling speed, and consider carefully that i do think he has a very good burst and speed, then i find it hard to conclude that he's the type of dribbler that deserves more than 74-76 dribbling speed.

That's really the key detail that will make a big difference on the set depending how you want to interpret his ability based on what footage we have. It will be agility and dribbling speed, how these two are balanced, that will determine how dangerous, or how effective Milos will be at dribbling and what will be his characteristics when he's on the ball.

my feeling is that 84ish da, maybe as high as 86 da is enough, with 75/76 agility, maybe 78 dribbling speed as well. But if we go along your impression which is perfectly reasonable considering what footage is available, i can understand if you see him as an 88 da, and agi 78 or so, maybe ds up to 81 ish. again, there's nothing wrong about erring on the positive side after considering the fact that even a positive interpretation of what is needed is still a BIG downgrade from what ratings he has at the moment, so the decision is really up to you two.

And about the rest, i can agree and i don't have significant points to make about anything else.

You've mentioned his 90 Mentality, i really don't know :lol: - he could've been puyol, or he could've been balotelli/cassano, it is really impossible to say how determined he is when we can't watch how his attitude and effort/ workrate evolves or is resilient throughout a 90 minute match; so my thinking was, well if the newspapers and old articles don't have their dream winger anymore, at least let them have their warrior fighter. If you think he isn't worth much mentality though, then by all means go for it. That 90 ment in my set was just from the current set, a value with which there wasn't enough moments in footages to prove it was unworthy, so i left it alone. If you think it's too much go ahead with lowering it to what you think is necessary, i encourage that if you have such an impression. i just did not find that i see enough to make a real judgement on this area, so i didn't.
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Re: Miloš Milutinović | 1952-1958

Postby Moysís » 2017 Jul 18, 09:05

vinnie wrote:If he wore #8 then you must be right, but if i compare the appearance of the players, that #7 looks a bit like Milos, while the #8 seems too short to be Milos. The #7 is blonde as well isn't he? while the #8 has darker hair than #7.


I can say with 99 % security that this is not Milos.. this player is a bit darker and little bit heavier than Milos..

Spoiler: show
Image Image


This is Milos, a blonde guy, little bit bigger and slimmer..

Spoiler: show
Image


Well, concerning set, VUKDS has very good cuted all available videos what we have found so far and it is unnecessary repeat that he isn't on level with Vukas, Bobek and Zebec in those NT matches.. I think his ATT should stay in orange zone (90), he was danger in creating situation in front of opponent area and has good positioning to receive balls in penalty box, where in some cases he was pretty effective..

Like this situation and this one..

STA - I don't think he's worth yellow value, he wasn't pretty active without ball, he waited on the wing in lot of cases.. I didn't saw him tracking back in defence.. in some cases he knew fight for the ball and was pretty persistent but that I'd reflected with little bit higher MEN (78)..
TS - I'm fine with 86
ACC 91 - agreed
RES 83 is enough for him
DA 89 - not worth orange, but we could saw that he has knew save ball at feet and showed nice close movements..
DS 81 - agreed
SA 89 imo is better, he had nice placement when he tries shot and has been pretty efective in those situations in front of the goal..
SP 83 - ok
ST 86 - agreed
FK 78 CUR 77 - fine
HEA 79 JUM 83 - agreed
TECH 88
AGG 90- yes, we saw in some situations that he didn't always attack opponent when he must do that, but his tendency to attack and be dangereous has been always indisputable.. he was kind of player who always tried to be danger and had that innate tendency for attacking..
MEN 78
TW 76

Currently I don't have too much time so I've left these numbers as base for updating current set and we've already saw those clips several times so we have vision how that should be.. but at the end this set should apply his time in NT, since there is now way that he was similar in Partizan jersey from week to week like here.. :roll: and it is well known that he never reached same level in NT and some significant results like he did in club..
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Re: Miloš Milutinović | 1952-1958

Postby Albo7 » 2017 Jul 27, 12:20

Given him an update based on all of you guys posts and work, there are lots of very old Yugoslavian sets in here, hope you guys can give to some of them a review.
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Re: Miloš Milutinović | 1952-1958

Postby vinnie » 2017 Jul 27, 18:45

By the way Albo, VUKDS had sent me a message a week ago saying he was planning a post to sum up what should be updated, and i agreed that what Moysis and him thought was the best final set should be updated. Whenever he does post, what ever he suggests i support updating. Moysis and VUKDS began the look at Milos so i defer to them considering the lack of footage in the end.

I like the way you've updated the set, it's something i'm satisfied with, but i'm aware that Moysis and VUKDS were thinking that some areas deserved very slightly higher based on their interpretations of some examples.

If VUKDS or Moysis don't have objections i think this update is satisfactory. However if they have a difference that they point out, know that i'll support whatever they suggest. We've watched all that we could, and our opinions are all in the same range for every area, not being different by more than 3 or so points- so the the rest is interpretation and i'll defer regarding Milutinovic to Moysis and VUKDS about what they think is necessary.
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Re: Miloš Milutinović | 1952-1958

Postby Moysís » 2017 Jul 27, 19:12

Well, I've agreed with VUKDS that his ATT should stay on 90 and DA at least on highest yellow value.. He was pretty dangerous in creation situations in front of opponent area with clinical finishing when come in situation for score.. also his ability to create danger from nothing were always on spot, he has knew provide great close dribbling where he'd created chances for his teammates very successfully. DA is something weird in his case, when he decided start dribbling he was pretty danger and unstoppable but problem in his play was the lack of determination at certain moments like we've saw in some clips above.. so I'd go here with 89, keep him close to orange zone at least for now since we already know how hard is find some good and useful footage from his matches to say something more of his main weapons.. BB is also questionable, in some cases we could saw that he has knew resist on opponent attacks but didn't had consistency in those battles and for sure he never was a guy who relied his play on physical contact.. imo he isn't yellow material for BB, at least 79 would be fair enough here.

btw. you could use this picture in motion for him and era should be changed to 53-56, LPS value should be fixed as well.

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