Sergio Ramos


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Sergio Ramos

Postby PES Stats Database » 2008 Dec 09, 22:58

Full Name: Sergio Ramos García
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CLASSIC SET(S): 2009-10 & 2011-12 & 2013-14

Last edited by vinnie on 2014 Aug 31, 04:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby Albo7 » 2017 Aug 19, 14:11

Well how about this:

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First of all, I don't fucking support Real Madrid and You're an Atletico fan, even if You try to tell me that Your evaluation is fair, it can't be because it can have a dose of hate!!!


You're trying to accuse one of the mods that built La Liga up, and has been one of the fairest ones in the site of being biased, while what have you done for our site again? What you wrote is plainly disrespectful. And now I'm the one warning you, if you don't keep your arguments civil and keep up your personal attacks towards users that disagree with you, I'll give you a nice 2 months ban to cool you off. How about that?
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby JeffVR98 » 2017 Aug 19, 14:45

Fixer wrote:So did Pepe, Nacho or Varane...all of them are better defenders per se than Ramos is. Yet none of them is even nominated, not even amongst the 30 candidates...
Well this issue comes from certain factors that are making people probably tend to overrate him:
1. He is the captain of RM.
2. He is the man of the miracle goals (UCL, La Liga....)
3. Member of the two times ucl winning team.
4. If i'm not wrong he is one of the only three spanish players that Zidane puts usually on the starter eleven (Btw it's weird seems that the spanish league teams don't trust too much on their spanish players, last season the starter eleven of granada was completly fully of foreigners :| ).
This factors make to people tend to overrated him and the result is that he will be awarded.
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby elbicho » 2017 Aug 20, 16:54

I know it has been discussed for a long time, but i think its unfair that Ramos has worse defense than some unknown or horrible CB, in fact, he has one of the worst defense value for a CB in the whole database. He isnt worse in defensive terms than Vranjes (come on...) or Gabriel (recently signed by Valencia)... I know he is so silly, but a green value (76?) and the white teamwork is enough.

I also understand that his physical attributes make him a good player in real life and in game, but come on, he also knows how to defend better than CBs in low championships.
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby Ocrin » 2017 Aug 20, 17:17

This isn't a ladder problem regarding the DEF stat only, you guys also have to consider how defending IG involves multiple attributes. Ramos is great at every attribute involved in defence except DEF itself and TW. Have you seen his RES, BW, TS, ACC, JUM, HEA, MENT, BB?

Ramos is a beast IG despite his shitty DEF value with this set, giving him anything higher would make too good, way better than he actually is.
Actually, you could arguably he's already too good IG with that combo of physical attributes, his shitty DEF is basically undectable ingame given how beastly he is.

I don't get why this is a debate again really, the DEF downgrade has already been discussed and justified.
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby jurgens » 2017 Aug 20, 17:23

elbicho wrote:I know it has been discussed for a long time, but i think its unfair that Ramos has worse defense than some unknown or horrible CB, in fact, he has one of the worst defense value for a CB in the whole database. He isnt worse in defensive terms than Vranjes (come on...) or Gabriel (recently signed by Valencia)... I know he is so silly, but a green value (76?) and the white teamwork is enough.

I also understand that his physical attributes make him a good player in real life and in game, but come on, he also knows how to defend better than CBs in low championships.


It's not really about being worse than these players, it's just an attempt to emulate him. Much like it's not really about him being better than so many players in response, and one of the best in the world in this area.
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby Klaus14 » 2017 Aug 20, 17:25

Ocrin wrote:This isn't a ladder problem regarding the DEF stat only, you guys also have to consider how defending IG involves multiple attributes. Ramos is great at every attribute involved in defence except DEF itself and TW. Have you seen his RES, BW, TS, ACC, JUM, HEA, MENT, BB?

Ramos is a beast IG despite his shitty DEF value with this set, giving him anything higher would make too good, way better than he actually is.
Actually, you could arguably he's already too good IG with that combo of physical attributes, his shitty DEF is basically undectable ingame given how beastly he is.

I don't get why this is a debate again really, the DEF downgrade has already been discussed and justified.


Sometimes if a world known player have bad stats its common to ask for something better in any department, if he plays for madrid and win trophies and then you see white DEF, ppl will talk sadly. Like you said, its been discussed and justified.
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby elbicho » 2017 Aug 20, 23:22

Lol nice match today, thanks for supporting my arguments hahahahahaha so silly sometimes definitely
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby Korinov » 2017 Oct 02, 01:08

Couple notes about him, from today's extended highlights and a few matches I've watched recently.

His speed has been looking a bit weak when defending counter attacks against pacey forwards. On long runs he can still reach quite a decent pace, even when attacking (NT match vs Italy) but in short distances he suffers.

His overall passing has gone a step forward. Not really in terms of accuracy, too inconsistent IMO to deserve anything better than what he already has, but in terms of speed he's becoming more and more proficient and confident in what he tries, easily able to bypass two lines of opposition players with either ground and high passes, even if his accuracy isn't really there yet. Perhaps high yellows for both SPS and LPS if he keeps it at such level in the future.

Defensively he's as much as a liability as ever, now with extra retardation in his own box.
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby vinnie » 2017 Oct 22, 19:50

i've seen these same passes your talking about- really ambitious long passes from quite some distance, usually with good lps. however, i also see that he misses these passes quite badly about as often as he is accurate, or close to accurate.
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby Fixer » 2017 Oct 22, 21:27

vinnie wrote:i've seen these same passes your talking about- really ambitious long passes from quite some distance, usually with good lps. however, i also see that he misses these passes quite badly about as often as he is accurate, or close to accurate.


This.

This has been a constant in his game for years. Ramos can be an OK long passer but somehow he tends to fuck them up so often, really like Pepe used to around 2008, just the same. Pepe learned to control himself tho, but Ramos didn't and probably never will :lol: he has given a couple of assists like that too tho you gotta give him that.
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby Korinov » 2017 Oct 22, 21:38

Yes, his long passing has been like this for a while.

What struck me more was his willingness to try really powerful ground passes. He really reminded me of Hierro a couple of times, putting almost orange or even plain orange SPS into certain attempts. With the obvious difference that Hierro could actually control those passes when he was younger than what Ramos is today, while Ramos is not even there yet.

I don't know if he'll even keep this up, but food for thought. He's certainly a fun to watch player, all things considered, you never know when he's going to take you by surprise... in any regard.

Edit: sent acc down a couple points, perhaps harsh, but with such a set you really have to be with his weaknesses.
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby vinnie » 2017 Dec 08, 14:53

i've privately wondered a bit about if this defence/teamwork rating is maybe a bit too harsh. I checked through the default database that mckain posted, a few weeks ago, and i couldn't find any defenders with such a low defence teamwork combination at ANY level, let alone at the top tier level of defenders.

I think Ramos has done, at the least, a decent job against some top class attackers the past few seasons as well. i've mentioned before how thoroughly he shut down Aguero, and how much this left an impression for my opinion regarding both of these players. And if i think of someone like Helguera, he seemed a much more reckless and less capable defender prone to errors than Ramos, yet is still above Ramos for defence and teamwork.


but then, just like elbicho said, every so often there is just the most baffling defending by Ramos- just utterly brainless awareness. i remember how long it took me to find Ramos when i was watching this goal in the highlights from the russia spain friendly, because i recall that i knew Ramos was supposed to be in the match as he scored previously, unless he was subbed really early, but i just couldn't find him in defence anywhere. eventually i saw him and his number after a couple replays and i was stunned at where he was:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfTxwQSfhgU&t=8m05s

what the hell is he doing there? the only thing i can think of is maybe spain changed the formation and Ramos was playing as a DMF? but busquets and illaramendi are on the pitch, so that doesn't make sense, it looks like this is a 3 at the back with nacho-pique-ramos- but then still there is clear fault to Ramos for not covering pique.

didn't watch this game, so i'm not sure, but it is just surreal what he is doing to leave those gaps in defence.


though despite moments like the above, I feel like that in meaningless games like that Russia friendly, Ramos just doesn't care about defending diligently, and thinks he can get away with anything. I can't recall too many times he's done things like that in the most important matches against the best teams, but i may have forgotten some big stage howlers?


i still often do wonder if ramos is too harshly rated.. but just like elbicho said above, he definitely has these moments every now and then of total and utter abandon of his positioning and defensive responsibilities, and it quiets that thought pretty thoroughly.

i can see alot of the times that this def/tw is actually quite accurate for what the set intends, i just wonder if he's too underpowered in 1-v-1 defending through his tackling etc? That's at least one area where Ramos can be solid, and difficult to beat.
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby Rex » 2017 Dec 08, 15:36

Regarding Vinnie's thoughts, i always said i completely agree witih Ramos' stats, regarding TW absolutely, regarding DEF not 100%, but it's more accurate to have him on 70 than any kind of yellows or high greens.

But on the other side, there are many defenders who are equallly overrated by stats, but i guess they are not so important, or regularly watched and analysed like Ramos is, obviously. I can name a lot of defenders who are highly likely, or even surely better defenders than Ramos, but not by that huge margine, but i also i know some equally retarded players, or even worse, like Mangala, who is 5 points above Ramos in DEF, which is madness. I personally think Mangala is by far the worst player, not only defender playing in top or B class clubs that i've ever seen, and speaking of DEF he actually should be worse than Ramos, i am completely sure.

I'd also take examples of some similar style defenders, like Otamendi for instance. Two relatively short defenders, Ota especially, with great jumping ability, great RES, very attractive tackling, great mentality, aggresively marking, just that aggressive, 'no fear' style of defending with lot of energy and balls but not relied on clever positioning and overall intelligence and prowess in defending. Otamendi defo IS a better defender, but the gap of 17 points between two players in DEF is definetely way too huge. Also, Otamendi has a higher TW by 9, and i'm very aware that Otamendi's able to pull out some Ramos esque shit regarding TW.

Also, for instance Shokdran Mustafi from Arsenal, consistentnly doing crappy things, mostly related to TW/DEF values, yet he's 14 and 15 points above in those values. I am not even sure Mustafi is better than Ramos, he can also be attractive and impressive defender, but he is just dumb and clueless all round. Similar goes for Boateng.

It's really hard to rate defenders these days, a lot of different opinions can be seen. Football is now a show bussiness, i am not really into that "against modern football" thing, i love football, but people are just keen to see a bit of quick attacking footballl, and they tend to massively overrate aggresive markers and hard tacklers nowadays, most of them are not even able to recognize the tactical/positional mistake, most of my friends are defo not, so it's no wonder Ramos is widely considered as the best defender in the world. Ramos is terrible, but there are also many CB's who are "lucky" to be superficially followed here, i am not pointing fingers ofcourse, it's also due to the standards and everything, but i am quite sure that i can name 20 CB's who are much better rated than Ramos in DEF/TW, and they are 1) just a bit better 2) equally retarded 3) worse.

Also, the individual defending is highly related to the style of football of the team, tactical set up, the quality of their partner ETC.

So, my point is that Ramos could be this bad, i agree actually, but we should take a better look on some other players too.
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby jurgens » 2017 Dec 08, 21:54

ut i also i know some equally retarded players, or even worse, like Mangala, who is 5 points above Ramos in DEF, which is madness.


But you can't take the value of Ramos as a stand alone, as it's the overall effecting of everything togther. Nor can you really use it as a comparison, as the goal is just to make ramos himself realistic, and for that, unusual measures were taken to achieve that.

I've said it before, I think if you are to rate him another way, he can just as easily take 83/84 def, much less response and ment. But then what do you get? It really just ends up being another typical average defender in game, no extreme strengths, and no extreme weakness. It would be a very typical, unremarkable set. Would it do the job in emulating him though? And does this way get him down better? I honestly can't say, it could go either way. But I think the idea of going to odd extremes would produce better results and more individuality.
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby ulisesq95 » 2017 Dec 21, 19:33

he iss not one of the most prolific CB at positioning and covering but anyways his DEF seems ridiculously underrated
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby Jean_PS » 2017 Dec 22, 03:45

I get a little comfortable knowing that there are other people who also have questions about how Sérgio Ramos is represented here. The comments of Vinnie and Rex, among the most recent, illustrate well the side of those who think the set can still be improved.
Honestly, the combination applied in Sérgio Ramos has always bothered me. For a moment I was quiet because I understood that it was a combination of factors that made him a singular player in the database (def 70, res 90, tw 64). Three abilities that follow in opposite directions and that somehow try to represent the way he plays, however I disagree with this way of analyzing.

Inicially, I understand that using extreme or intense values ​​can help emulate a player and differentiate them from others, but we also know that it is possible to emulate a player in a more balanced way and that follows, say, the stairs and patterns of the database.
Sérgio Ramos could well have 82 in defense and 86/87 in response. Was that a sin? No. It's just another way of representing him that, as Jurgens said, would make it more common. Can he have 70 in defense and 90 in response? It can also, is another way of looking at its characteristics. But, as I said above, I disagree in a more rigid and intense way of analyzing.
I do not think we need to apply extreme or intense values ​​like this in differences to emulate players. We can make them unique by applying values ​​like Konami does or as PSd itself has always done. Using a balance of "forces". After all, stopping to think it over. Watching a match, say, between any two teams. We can find an incredible defender A and another terrible B only through that match, but on another occasion we may have the opposite impression where player B is incredible defensively and player A constantly fails. How can we say that A is better than B or vice versa? Well, through regularity would be the most direct answer. But in a detailed way, what defines one player to be more defensively safe than another? What defines it to be more organized? Defense and teamwork are two of the most subjective skills that exist in PES. We can give the player 70 or 90 in defense and teamwork and playing 5 straight matches with his team and just maybe we may notice some difference in using the player. Even with it being controlled by the AI, it would still be complex to determine if the dot gain made a difference in the emulation.

Currently, with 90 in response, he is one of the leading players in this skill up the ladder. While with 70 in defense, he is one of the worst. The teamwork located at 64 is also near the "bottom of the pit" (located at 60 on the skill). That is the extreme literally of the forces. In one respect he is the best defender in the world, in another the worst. To what extent is this really emulable?

As previously mentioned by other users. There are several and several worse defenders than Sérgio Ramos in defensive and organizational aspects, but who have better scores (on a large scale of difference) and the only reason given for this is that he has high response and mentality or other things that of some shape balance. But honestly, I do not think they balance.

I remember the successive donwgrades Sérgio Ramos received. He initially had 84 in defense and then fell to 82 (if I'm not mistaken), then came to 78 and then to 75, where for a long time he was left with 75 attack and 75 defense. And, finally, it was reduced again to 70 and such value was applied even in the classic sets.
Okay, he played as a side defender for years and then became central defender, but he never had an evolution? Not even a single point? If we look at the classic sets, does it have 70 fixed in a space of 6 years? Was there not even a minimal evolution in years acting as a central defender? Does his defensive proficiency only boil down to the response?

Sorry for the post full of questions. But sometimes I prefer to provoke this type of discussion where what is being applied is questioned. At all times I used the value of defense as a reference because it is certainly what should be questioned by the users and where it is more work to emulate.

Particularly, even if Sérgio Ramos was 80 today, I would not think it terrible. But compared to the rest of the database, he could certainly have 78 in defense without any problems. I believe that 78 would make him more balanced with the rest of the players who were not analyzed intensively and would still give him that 12-point gap for response making him "unique" as some mean. This is just an idea, anyway. I could suggest a more complete combination (like teamwork 66~68) if anyone wanted to, but my goal was to question the way a player was analyzed while others flee from that mold.
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby bitz » 2017 Dec 22, 08:43

Jean_PS wrote:I could suggest a more complete combination (like teamwork 66~68) if anyone wanted to, but my goal was to question the way a player was analyzed while others flee from that mold.


Other players did not "flee from the mold" though. It's just that Ramos is more exposed, playing for RM , competing in CL every year etc. Ramos he has shown certain things we tried to emulate here in PSD. Honestly his case has been discussed far too many times and I feel I'm repeating what others have already said. It would be awesome if we could analyze every single player and expose his strengths/weaknesses. But that's not possible. Statsmaking is a time consuming hobby you know. Plus we try to work with a game that doesn't provide a clear way of rating; everything has to be figured out and that takes time. Most members here are long timers, visiting this forum for like 8 years and playing PES for at least as many. Yet we are still scraping the iceberg at times.
Don't get lost in the numbers game. Imagine that stats are not visible inside the game and you play with what you have. I'm pretty sure people would be very satisfied with Ramos's set if stats here under the hood. Why I didn't see people doubting Icardi's 62 TW? or Pique's 60 agility? Or Xabi Alonso's set where he is rated like a goalkeeper in speed attributes? Making players unique is something the community strives here, I feel it's something that sparks interest. Using extreme values wherever it's meaningful is part of it. Take a look at the Argentine league, Vickingo and the other mods there have done a great job with stat extremities.
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby Fixer » 2017 Dec 22, 10:55

@jean there are certain points in your post that you can really answer by reading previous pages but still:



There are several and several worse defenders than Sérgio Ramos in defensive and organizational aspects, but who have better scores (on a large scale of difference) and the only reason given for this is that he has high response and mentality or other things that of some shape balance. But honestly, I do not think they balance)


Of course there are worse defenders than Ramos... and none off them are even close to his set...I dont think any defender in the database is. Again as bitz said, Ramos gets way more attention (unluckily for him in a way) and his set has been much more heavily worked on...using outdated or ignored players as a comparison would be a mistake
Okay, he played as a side defender for years and then became central defender, but he never had an evolution? Not even a single point?


Actually Ramos is probably one of the most frustrating cases of a player who has been on for more than a decade, playing in teams such as Sevilla and Real Madrid (ONLY) since his debut and he has barely learned anything. It's not just about what he displays, you just have to hear him answer to questions regarding his form...he's unable to recognize his mistakes, hence his often haughty behaviour...I've been aware of his existance for 12 years and every single hint of self criticism appeared as a plural. He has never admitten the slightest slip, it's very difficult to get any better when you are not only a pighead, but also completely unable to think analitically. If I were asked this question outside this thread I'd straightforwardly say: no, he hasn't improved at all. The player with the most red cards in the history of La Liga (and record breaker at the youngest age, a player who probably deserves a yellow per match and a red so often its amazing he manages to play so many matches), so even if he was a good tackler he does insist on being completely retarded I guess because he can get away with it.


I consider this set to be really close to perfection in terms of emulation (not neccesarly stat by stat, which is much harder) because it does capture what Ramos is like. He's a total monster player with a combination of skills that are actually RARE for a CB. Ramos is strong, technically great, probably the best header of the ball outside strikers in the world, still fast for his age, he does have a fighting spirit regardless of his fuck ups and misunderstandings of how to behave and when, but he's not without extreme flaws. If we are going to standarize Ramos we are going to miss the point of this website, specially now that not even Konami standarizes, regardless of them offering questionable stats of certain better known players .
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby jurgens » 2017 Dec 22, 13:27

bitz wrote:Don't get lost in the numbers game. Imagine that stats are not visible inside the game and you play with what you have. I'm pretty sure people would be very satisfied with Ramos's set if stats here under the hood.


Thank you, this is brilliant. I was trying to say something like this in my stats thread in the last post, but I couldn't articulate it.
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Re: Sergio Ramos

Postby Slizzard » 2017 Dec 23, 16:28

Could have got a redcard today vs barca. Slapped suarez right in the face.

Physically he's a monster but he's braindead. No feeling for positioning what so ever and leaves his post as soon as he gets a "chance" to do this

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