CLASSIC SET(S): 2009-10 & 2011-12 & 2013-14
vinnie wrote:Suji wrote:biondi wrote:jurgens wrote:hes scored more goals in a season than zanneti in his entire carrer basically, lol.
I understand the atk increasing but the def one still looks weird to me, I never saw him making incredibly defensive things rather than an overwelming pressing, something between 75-79 would fit better (unless this season he has improved this much, I haven't pay tv so I can just follow well serie a matches)
No, he hasn't improved. He's his same old self and the only change he has is his heading. This season he's missed some chances which he shouldn't but they're not so many to cause a downgrade already.
What do you two think about the fact that over the last 5 years it's become a repeated pattern that Ramos gets suspended for a key match, and Madrid falls apart defensively?
No doubt Ramos is far too flawed to be an elite defender for his defensive aspects alone. But he isn't rated in that way at all! Out of all of the Centrebacks in our database, Ramos has practically the lowest teamwork rating in the entire database.
And how can we describe 84 defence as incredible? Just go look at Baresi's set, or Maldini, Nesta, Beckenbaur, Passarella, Puyol, Moore . THOSE are amazing sets defensively. 84 is very good, but for a defender that's usually regarded as one of the very best in the world (debatably around here, sure), this indicates a defender that isn't great because of his defensive ability. This rating Ramos has is so far away from that class of defenders mentioned above, it's a world away. I do think this is a fair rating Defence rating for ramos. i see Ramos as individually capable of locking down players, but he DOES have massive concentration problems, and he is practically uninterested in making safe defensive decisions- his gung-ho aggressiveness is an attribute that is often exploited.
I always agree that it's valid to point out Ramos flaws. But i think if we don't mention his now obviously big positive influence for the defences he plays in, then the discussion is not being fair.
If we compare ramos to the elite old school defenders before this new generation of more offensive, risk-taking, and less meticulously attentive centrebacks, isn't it obvious he's nowhere near their class?
There's a slightly strange image we are making of Ramos imo. Because we all agree he has brutal gaps in his skillset. But then we are always saying how his well rounded offensive and tactical abilities explain how he is still an elite player/asset as a whole.
But this is not true.
Just compare Ramos against Hierro, there is practically nothing Ramos surpasses Hierro in, and many key areas Hierro crushes Ramos. And many of the old-school defenders are not only physically similar to Ramos in terms of athleticism/presence, but they are also not so far away from Ramos technically either.
If you just look at Ramos set right now, it's really not that special. He's not a generational player physically, according to his stats, and his technical stats- while world leading, do not really show up as some kind of big advantage over past greats, who happen to have technical stats that aren't really that far away.
Myself, i think Ramos is somewhere in the low to mid yellow range for defence; i think it's fair to give that old 70 defence rating for around that 2010-11 era, then about 75 for that 12-13 era, and since about 2015, i think Ramos is a deserving low yellows defence.
Ramos has been tested against practically every world class defender in the last 5 years, and really i don't see evidence that supports the idea that he has no ability to defend great attacks. We all agree Ramos has a uniquely reckless defensive style. I think we have swayed towards being too harsh on Ramos however. Ramos is not a defensive master, but he is clearly, somewhat good, is he not? Is the low teamwork not meant to punish the poor coordination Ramos has with his defence? It seems overkill to go after both Defence and Teamwork to the database basement level that we did before, i just don't think Ramos has been that bad. And if we had good reasons once to suspect that he indeed might really be that bad.. i find it hard to believe that a defender like that can win 3 straight CLs. At some point, he should be figured out and targeted. Madrid has never been a heavy possession dominant team, they haven't had amazing defensive midfielders or systems either. Yet, even through some of the hardest CL runs ever, Madrid generally tended to do quite well defensively. Combining this with the fact that very consistently when Ramos is out of the team Madrid collapses defensively, then i think it's evident just by looking at the effect of Ramos NOT being there, what kind of effect Ramos generally gives to madrid defensively.
Whoah10115 wrote:How again does the prowess part work? I always compare my teammates to pros and the context of all the PES stats lol.
I had one guy who was a beast defensively, but geneally an attacking player, tho he played B2B and could play as a DLP, but he was a bit selfish. And while he read the game well (certainly was smart) his defensive contribution was mostly his defensive actions.
Compare me, even when not in great shape or a niggling injury (and a forward) I could play deep and do the tactical side, even when my contributions weren't made of much action.
So long story short, I honestly get confused (tho I've read the technical definitions and the RES+DEF ÷ by 2 formula)...just seems like I get a lot of contrast in explanations.
Sorry if asking a question I shouldn't here. Main point is he has the ability to make great actions, and to recover, and can be amazing last ditch. He reacts well, but does he read the game and position himself? Nah.
How are he and Vertonghen close? Doesn't make much sense.
Turambur wrote:My problem with the
new stats it that, if in PES 13:
DEF is the ability to recover the ball without fouling.
And a player is got good defensive position if he's got high TW and DEF.
And would be good in interceptions if he is got high RES and good DEF.
So Defensive Prowess is how good a player whould be in position AND interceptions? because if it's that then: should it be some kind of mix between DEF and TW or DEF and RES?
And Ball Winning is all about recovering, why isn't the same as the old DEF in Pes 13?
Players like Kompany have orange DEF and low yellow TW and Mid yellow RES, he would be very good tacker and averange in position, but he is got Orange DEF and Orange RES, why? Souldn't he get something like 86 in Defense Prowess and 91 (?) in Ball Winning?
Ramos is got 90 in RES, 64 in TW and 84 in DEF, he is HORRIBLE in position, averange tacker and good in interceptions, and yet he is got 84 in Defense Prowess and 86 in Ball Winning, while his DP should be lower, even high greens. How can I do to read the old defensive stats and turn them to new gen stats? From PES 13 to PES 15
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests