A real overhaul?


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Vickingo
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A real overhaul?

Postby Vickingo » 2012 Aug 25, 01:18

I've been talking a while with Rob about this and I got surprised he was thinking exactly the same of me without talk before about it to each other. This isn't any kind of revolution, nothing of that...but I have the feeling we have in this awesome section so many topics which are useless in PES. I mean, reviewing some All Star teams, it's almost impossible to create in PES a real team from them. Why? Mostly cause 80% of sets are or overrated, or with old standards, or aren't trustable.

The workload rate since jurgens came to the section is admirable, plus the always awesome work of Brezza and anonyme, Korinov, Albo7 and Epsi. The work from recent times is really trustable and you can put those stats in game without any problem, knowing there is a lot of work behind it and it'll work fine.

I'm referring to this:

Before 30's: 47 Topics
30's: 76
40's: 81
50's: 204
60's: 292
70's: 449
80's: 432
90's: 491
00's: 192
Contemporary Players: 412

I mean, it's not an issue of quantity, it's an issue of quality plus new standards. This topic could complement 'Mongolese Maradonas' thread as it's a bit similar, but my point is a bit different. I don't know if the solution to have an accurate and good database of Classic is to delete those threads which aren't trustable or are with old standards and there aren't any trustable member who can take part of it or care about it...but it seems better than have so many threads which nobody will use as are obviously wrong most of them.

Probably there's a good work behind them, but with old standards and probably overrated in those stats like sps/lps/sp/sta/ment, etc so are basically out of sync. I've been around the forums here and there and it's true julgui had some good works, but after make a quick view in some players I've realized are pure guesswork. Probably in the old database could work, but now with the compromise of you guys to make the section better, the only thing which makes is to mess up the ladders and bother there.

So, what's the result? I bet there are many users or guests who want to have Classic teams in their games -even me- but can't cause sets aren't accurate and old. I want to repeat that the workload in last time is just fantastic, really, from all the mods here. You guys are making the best for the site in this section which is may be one of the most visited in the forum and it's true there is a lot of work to be done, but obviously it'll be made gradually as you're doing. But also there is a reality as the other topic bring up and it's innaccurate sets everywhere and a whole work which is almost impossible to even start. It'd be to a "new start", keeping trustable topics and deleting all the rest which can't be taken from neither of us.

I'd like to read opinion from you guys and whoever can discuss this.

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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby jurgens » 2012 Aug 25, 03:28

I'll just explain why I'm in the classic section/what I'm doing first.. pretty off topic and probably boring for most of you too.

I was a console users for pes, classic or modern retired players have always been my favourite. So being console players and a PSD members, me and my brother would manually move stats to our OF and create players we knew of or liked, we were doing this for a very long time. But I always had a problem with some ridiculosly rated players, overpowered players, players that seemed really unrealistic etc etc. Anyways, sometime ago... I got a new PC, one thats capable of running pes. So... I couldn't wait to get the PSD patch. Worst mistake ever.... little by little I slowly deleted all existence of PSD sets that were in the patch or ones that were implemented? Why.. same reasons, overpowered, unrealistic etc. I've always tried to watch as much old matches as I could, and then use the insight I got from watching these sets to touch up players on my PS3 pes. You know I'd watch matches for say... Big name player.. and in the background I'd notice.. several small name players who I knew of and liked but didn't have much recollection of. But I had them on my PS3 pes... tones of them. I realized, the players that were on my console pes (s) were nothing like these players. These sets on PSD... were damned awful.

So.. I decided to start fresh, no PSD stats AT ALL. I removed everything I could from my OF, I had to do it individually and manually... needless to say took a long time. So as I was now playing pes on the PC and had much better editing options (faces, kits, etc) I decided to create allstars teams of alot of clubs. To do this I started watching a lot of football from the past, and slowly started to build up an OF with stats that I thought at the time were accurate. But then of course I realized I was using messed up PSD standards, and eventually reverted back to konamis and once again began rediting the players I'd made before. But this time, I started researching all the old konamis games. I downloaded every game in the pes series bar 1/2 and started checking through all the players stats. And I finally realized so many of these sets were excellent! So I then began adding in these konami sets to my allstar and era teams, rather than the PSD ones. I'd watch mathces and check back and forth between Konamis sets in games and try to see where the truth was in their sets among various games, and implemented my own tweaks on top of their base a long the way.

This may not seem like much work, but it's really an endless, endless amount of work. I've implemented allstar teams for about 2 dozen clubs from the 2000+ and a few from the 90's. I'm touching up as much players and sets in these teams as often as I can. As I've said a million times, I'm a big team/player follower. I'm not so interested in football for supporting clubs as I am interested in watching greats of the game. So.. my foucs has/is been mainly on the big players. Trying to go through the big players and get accurate sets for as many of them as possible. I've done this to a pretty large degree, but I'm always looking at new matches and finding new players I never knew before.. But you can never, ever use the PSD for these players. They just don't work. They are either a) Random b) assumption c) d) using some bizzare standard that some guy invented for himself that is so far out of any standard PSD ever used. Usually it's a combination of everything.
Now a lot of the time, I won't find enough footage of new players I stumble acorss to make an accurate set. So I either just take konamis set and leave it as it is, or don't make any set for the player at all.
It's probably dumb? To not just make "semi accuarte sets"? But I just can't stand having players being wrong on my OF. So I don't publish sets unless I've watched enough of a player to be satisfied.


So for those reasons, basically everything on PSD is useless if you want a life like replication of whatever player it is your looking for. I really don't know what to do with it. Like so many people, I want players on my OF but ... just can't use PSD's.
I dunno what to do about this. Basically what I've been doing on PSD recently, is moving the work from my OF to PSD. But a lot of it isn't great work, a lot of it can't be.. so I'll just take konamis on my OF and leave PSD's as it is. I'm trying to touch up more players and more sets.... but I'm too much of a perfectionist so I don't do updates unless I'm very sure on the work.

I don't know what direction to take the classic sets. Yes the sets are uselesss.... but a lot of the sets on the forum are made with a lot of knowledge. But we can't apply this knowledge anymore unless we watch the player ourselves... and we can hardly to do that for thousands of players. If the old members who made trust worthy sets cameback, and tried coolaborate with us.. well that would be great. But it ain't happening. So were stuck with thousands of sets that are very inaccurate in PSD terms.

Like I said before, I'm just a big player/team follower so I'm mostly sticking to these.. as this is really all I know. This does involve a lot of smaller players along the way, but really I can only do so much. And not to mention, I'm watching modern football too... and trying to make accurate sets etc for them. So you know... my work load is really divided.

Atm I'm trying to touch up fiorentina/valencia players from the 2000's. But again I always run into the same problems, not enough footage to make accurate sets.

So really I'm at a loss what to do with the classics. I try to limit the amount of new content that comes into the classics, I only really permit sets from trust worthy sources now. But I have no idea what to do with the old stuff...
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby jurgens » 2012 Aug 25, 20:46

Heres a good example of what I'm talking about. viewtopic.php?f=188&t=5776&hilit=ALDAIR

Aldair, pretty famous good defender. Completely random sets. This will be easier to fix up. But the classic section is just littered with sets like this, where it's just random guesses.
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby the sloth » 2012 Aug 26, 00:51

xxx
Last edited by the sloth on 2013 Oct 06, 19:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby Yazid » 2012 Aug 26, 14:19

Its only recently as I've started to really spend time watching classics and spending time on PSD that I truly realise how off most of the classics are. Particularly any before the 60s, they are useless, and only a handful from the 60s, 70s and 80s are decent to be honest. Even the likes of Pele, arguably the greatest ever player has an inaccurate set.

I am like you jurgens in that I don't find the need to edit every last classic player on the forum, but the players in the all time dream team or the best classic national and club teams should be at least representable otherwise they are worthless teams as well as players.

Is there anyone who could transfer some of the standard PES ratings for the really wrong players because that would surely be a better foundation than what we currently have for most of the classics.
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby Dimon » 2012 Aug 26, 16:57

Great true by jurgens. This set for Aldair is just a joke, like for many other players. I agree with Yazid in replace some completely untrustable sets with konami's ones and after this edit them only if we have real proofs to make that changes. Also I suggest to mark some really good sets with a star or some other symbol.
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby Brezza » 2012 Aug 26, 17:44

Just seems like a re-hash of previous topics to be honest.. If the stats are completely random and you don't trust the source at all they can be deleted for all I care, or replaced with a konami set if they have one.

I'm already konamizing some players but its going slowly as i'm re-watching them to re-evaluate them with newer standards as well. Not all sets are random and just need tweaks though, so I'd still prefer it if someone goes into a thread with at least some knowledge about the player before demanding Konami stats as well.
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby Vickingo » 2012 Aug 27, 11:44

I really appreciate the feedback, didn't expect so much on this thread tbh.

@jurgens Really true all you said.
I don't know what direction to take the classic sets. Yes the sets are uselesss.... but a lot of the sets on the forum are made with a lot of knowledge. But we can't apply this knowledge anymore unless we watch the player ourselves... and we can hardly to do that for thousands of players. If the old members who made trust worthy sets cameback, and tried coolaborate with us.. well that would be great. But it ain't happening. So were stuck with thousands of sets that are very inaccurate in PSD terms.


I really doubt if any old member will come back and if comes back will have to adapt to new standards and the new stuff and that will take a lot of time. I mean and my point is, if sets are useless in PES, are inaccurate to PSD's goal nowadays and old members won't come again...I don't see the reason of keeping them -or most of them-. It's pretty hard to find any classic player with so many topics...there are sections with +10 pages of players and most of them (80%?) are inaccurate or old. So people usually won't take any team to make in PES and that isn't the goal of the site. As you said it's pretty hard and hard to decide :cry:

Just seems like a re-hash of previous topics to be honest.. If the stats are completely random and you don't trust the source at all they can be deleted for all I care, or replaced with a konami set if they have one.
I'm already konamizing some players but its going slowly as i'm re-watching them to re-evaluate them with newer standards as well. Not all sets are random and just need tweaks though, so I'd still prefer it if someone goes into a thread with at least some knowledge about the player before demanding Konami stats as well.


Yeah it's intentionally I forgot to make clear that. So you're positive in deleting inaccurate and useless topics? You're doing a good amount of work with modern and '60/'70's players lately, but it's too much work for you and other 2 or 3 mods. I'd rather have few players but accurate and go making them throught the time instead of thousands and thousands of inaccurate topics everywhere, which the only thing do is be annoying to find a player when you don't want to use the search option or makes the forum slowly? -dunno actually-. I'm not actually positive in deleting for case Aldair, as for sure anyone can work in him but there are thousands of unproven sets which are almost impossible to get any matches, even highlights. I can make a list of Argentinians and those who I'm familiar with or actually southamerican in general, but i'll go slowly.

Other problem are sets from before 70's...it's really hard to find even a game from that era...so we have just and pure guesswork. You can get some highlights but there aren't so many complete matches from there...it's even difficult to rate Di Stefano for case. I don't trust any 30's or 40's set tbh, not cause members who made those sets, but yes cause they've never seen those players.
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby jurgens » 2012 Sep 03, 06:12

Okay so I've been looking over alot of sets. There is to make things easy, lets say there are two type of sets. Sets made by good users, with good knowledge, but for whatever reasons, be it oudated standards or lack of knowledge of pes, the sets no longer translate well into pes. Then you have the second type, random sets, assumed values, not really salvagable. I'd like too make a list of who fits into who, and see what we can change. Ideally, I'd like to go through the sets made by people who had little knowledge on the players they were creating, and delete all their sets unless they've been worked on a lot. As for the others, well we can see what we can do.



Users who made many poor sets: These are either random or really far off standard. Some salvageable of course.

Scotty Africa
Zingo
Vandeach
Fevernova
clinon
Tom
Milanista_99
Zingo


Users who had great knowledge, but stats are either outdated by our standards, or their knowledge didn't translate well into to pes:
These sets are salvageable.

Plava Cigra
Oriello
electric_trigger
p1rha
classical (?)
Mr RVN


Add whoever you know of, or correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby Vickingo » 2012 Sep 03, 11:21

Pretty much agree with all Rob. We can add julgui's which are 85% assumptions and overrated but I can try to correct them and fit with standards. Also JuliTo's in 90's/00's are out of standards and he made a lot of effort but are really overrated as far as I know, a shame he isn't active lately.
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby Brezza » 2012 Sep 04, 23:46

Completely agree with the users that have great knowledge part. some of those aforementioned are actually some of the best posters in this sites history, but get unappreciated because they post in the classic section off course... Ill try and make it my prerogative that their stats get updated to the new standards. Anything else can be deleted imo.
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby jurgens » 2012 Sep 05, 00:10

Am I missing anyone?
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby Brezza » 2012 Sep 05, 00:17

Me. :D
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby jurgens » 2012 Sep 06, 02:43

Deleted a lot of zingos threads, didn't touch any that had been worked on though. Seems zingo was 14 while making all these sets..
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby Vickingo » 2012 Sep 06, 12:26

Yesterday I was looking for julgui's old sets. There are many of 50's/60's Brazilian players. I know them by name and in many cases there aren't so much input. I'm 99% positive those sets are just assumptions and are heavily overrated as it isn't trustable to watch a good footage of them, even 1 match. What about them?
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby Brezza » 2012 Sep 07, 15:57

jurgens wrote:Deleted a lot of zingos threads, didn't touch any that had been worked on though. Seems zingo was 14 while making all these sets..


Mcmattie made some decent set replacements for Zingo's sets, which I didn't quite get round to adding.

Uzair and Il Codino are other users that could be added to the second list of users I believe.
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby Korinov » 2012 Sep 12, 10:15

Fevernova's are pure guesswork in most cases. It's specially clear with his "younger" sets... he just took an already existing prime set of a certain player then applied random increases of decreases to make an "early" set. Guti is the perfect example.
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby Korinov » 2012 Sep 30, 22:10

Hmm, being thinking for a while... is there actually any kind of footage for players before the 30s. Because 100% of the sets in that section look like guesswork... maybe some of them are the product of a good research job based on articles, interviews and the such, but still guesswork. So I'm positive about deleting them all.
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby Vickingo » 2012 Oct 01, 00:29

I don't think so, even in 40's is really difficult to find any image...and i'd say in 50's is mostly guesswork too. Not to talk about Pre-War stats?
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Re: A real overhaul?

Postby Brezza » 2012 Oct 01, 16:42

Yeah its pretty impossible to find any footage for pre-war players . Most stats are based on written extracts of their playing style/guesswork/comparing abilities to similiar players of the same era, so there just for fun really and for those that might want to play with those legends in their option file.

Dunno, could spend an afternoon cleaning some of the stats up abit but I think only the really legendary ones could be worth keeping like your Meazza's Sindelar's etc and those posted by more trusted members.

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