jurgens master league thoughts


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jurgens master league thoughts

Postby jurgens » 2017 May 16, 23:11

After a long time off from actually playing pes, and mostly just creating and editing players, I'm back into playing master league... which is the main thing I like about pes in the first place.
Figured I'd attempt to share some of my ideas and players I find interesting etc. Dunno how active I'll do this though as it's more work than I'd like to keep up with.

Quick bit of info about my game in general:

I play pes 2011. I absolutely hate the fact that pes since the beginning completely overpowers dribbling, so it's just always been par for the course for people to get on the ball and abuse dribbling. Since I started playing pes and being a pvp freak since I was a kid, this was a massively discouraging factor to me. But in pes 2011 you have the stumble and catch up nerfs to tone down dribbling, its honestly way over the top and makes the game infuriating, but it does take care of that abuse and forces you to play the game in inventive and interesting ways. The other thing about pes 2011 is that in spite of all the annoying nerfs that go too far, dribbling is actually possible in pes 2011, it's just very difficult, you have to have complete awareness of the overall situation and know what you can and can't do in the present moment based on a multitude of factors, mostly to do with body angles and how to avoid the current pressure being applied or incoming. It's difficult and you are on borrowed time, so pulling it off is the most satisfying I've found in any pes ever :) It is by no means perfect, and in many ways its god damn awful, but thats pes in itself. I've just settled on this.

I play with a game play patch and a difficulty patch. My game is 2011, so a lot of stuff is out of date, but a lot of it is fully up to date, all of the top teams are close to 100%, the lesser teams in the top 3 leagues are pretty updated and most keys players are there. I don't like to throw away perfectly good players and I like to have as many choices as possible for players, so all of the original pes 2011 sets are mostly present (some retired) in fringe leagues or other European teams. this also means that there is a massive amount of great players, so every team ends up creating a pretty nice line up because of the wealth of variety, which helps keep the difficulty level up.

The main thing I care about is interesting/unique/weird sets. I don't care so much about having a team of perfect players, I like sets with glaring holes in them, players with real weaknesses, players with average sets with some stand out points, rather than having a team of perfect players, I rather have a team with interesting players that I've grown fond of and like to try make them play together really nicely. My goals change around as do my playing styles, so if I'm trying to adjust my team around to compensate for a weakness, I may end up changing the whole dynamics of the team, though I'd usually like to avoid that.

Regarding sets; I am usually much, much harsher than PSD so I'll typically have far less tw/def/ment etc for players in fringe leagues or unproven players. I love konami sets so there is a tonne of them up to about 2014 (after that they fucking suck) and lots of old sets. From then on its mostly all my own sets or sets I've modded off PSD. I've also started to follow fifa stat trends through out their games, so there is quite a few players influenced from there sets, hybrid sets and what not. Mostly I'm just collecting and making fun and interesting sets.

Oh, I'm very picky and weird with my teams and make up a lot of stipulations on what I can and can't do. I like to try avoid getting stars and world beaters, but inevitably it happens here and there. I try to avoid it though as the more I get the more I lose interest. I really just want to find interesting sets and niche players and adopt them into my team, if I can create a perfect role for a less than perfect player, I'm much happier with that than putting 3 world beaters in midfield and dominating. I also like to search for players that fit the current idea I have for my team, thats one of the best things in pes for me. Nothing like finding a diamond in the rough, or turning a supposed average player into a top tier one 8-)


Lastly, no classics or classic teams, no player development and starting with default ML players and a global -1 on forum, 7 is the max on my OF and basically non existent, highest difficulty of course.
All coaches and advantageous facilities are on the absolute minimum, I don't want any bonus from trainers to stamina or fitness etc.
Playing with Atalanta B.C. in serie a, nothing to do with their current season in reality, just been planning on using them as my next serie a team for some time. Currently in season 3 and have moved on from the default players and started to build the core of the team.

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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby jurgens » 2018 Feb 03, 22:24

I would think that Aguero despite having less red stats has more overall qualities by being a supremely better dribbler, faster, PES6 Trez is rated BB 85 Aguero on PSD has 88 - Aguero has qualities that make-up vs a less dynamic poacher, no?


Yeah. Aguero is one of our god tier players, hes rated close to fine, maybe low on agr/resp, but thats another discussuion. I'm more concerned about the players who aren't quite at that level, since you brought up trez and capellos 1-0 victorys, a good comparison is inter. Cause inter is fucking shit, for a long time they've had one of the worst attacks in the lague, absolutely horrdenous. But Icardi keeps scoring, scoring chances from nothing, over and over again. And compare him to Trez. It's not a question of whos better, trez is undoubtdly better, a shot technique and poaching master, but his set completly out-classes Icardi by such a large degree, there should be a gap, but not so extreme.

Higuain could/can be disabled by today's top tier CB's.


Higuain is an anamolay though, he hit a true god tier level of play for one season, and then plummeted physicaly. So we never got to see his best on the highest level.

heck even Van Nistelrooij is rated a faster better dribbler than Higuain but also an ultimate predator.


Thats accurate though. RVN was deceptively fast, and a beautiful dribbler. He was completly well rounded techincally, just played more of a poacher role. Remeber his legendary goal vs fulham? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCB_0ibu7bo


rather than converging top players to similar red ratings in key stats to match Konami's past examples borne from unknown intentions.


Also like Korinov mentioned and it is a good point, their complete focus was not on the stats, since we know that it is time consuming to watch enough of one player, but they too had deadlines and other focuses for how big of a game developer studio


I appreciate your comment Oriello, but I've got to be real here. We've completely rehauled the entire databse purely based on Konamis works. We ignored them for years and then, slowly, people started studying and then trying to find sense in their stats, filtering out anomalies and noticing trends throughout the games. It took years, but by the end of it, we decided they knew exactly what they we're doing, and the entire database is now based upon those works. Whatever their intentions were, they made great works, and refined them over the years into near perfect replications of top tier players.

We have strived to make players that fit in alongside their works, even their works from back then. You can look at Suarez, Messi, C.Ronaldo, Prime Falcao, Prime Milito etc. We are making sets as god tier as they are. It's not a question of should we, it's more so, should we be doing it more? Forget the Konami examples I posted, and look at OUR examples. Are we being too harsh, are we taking too long? For example, Suarez goes into red st/high orange sa/red agr/98 attack/red resp, several years after he hits his prime. It took us that long to realize it. How many other players are in the same situation right now? That's really the point I want to get across here. Suarez's set in 2012 when he was in absolute god mode, would have looked like many strikers sets today, average, good dribbler, a player bordering on world class, but very far from being ranked as god tier as he is today, but he was close to his best back then.

It's not about making players godly, simply to match Konamis old sets, it's about asking are we under-ratings players, in comparison with our own sets (and konamis too, but that doesn't matter since, people are just going to call into question konamis accuracy, when we've established it already). The only reason I posted the konami, is really because this is where our ladders originated from, and while we have stuck to them, we seem to be very reluctant making players "god tier". The konamis sets are really distracting from the point here, though it's nessacry to acknowledge them.


Also like Korinov mentioned and it is a good point, their complete focus was not on the stats, since we know that it is time consuming to watch enough of one player, but they too had deadlines and other focuses for how big of a game developer studio? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Konami_games In 2003-2005 they had released around 20+ other games per year, in 2006 around 10 games, by 2011 Pro Evolution Soccer 2012 was their sole product :lol: it should be the best.


It's not like "Konami" themselves are creating sets. They have a team for pes, and within pes, they have a team working on sets. We don't know who they are, but they were certainly not burdened by having to design multiples games. Whoever they were they did fucking insane global work, modern and classic, not that it really matters, but I sincerely doubt they were japanese. They had an extreme eye to detail that does not come from casual viewing. I'd imagine they were something like scouts hired for the job.
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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby Oriello » 2018 Feb 04, 03:28

The bolded bits relate to your actual question, the others is me talking into the wind.

Icardi I do not follow with regularity, I only know him in a general sense so I don't accurately know what the gap is with Trez. I think whilst Icardi is a very talented poacher in the box, he lacks the follow through in away matches and that constant threat/clinical-ness that a top end elite striker has, and we only really have his body of work in a less competitive Serie A. Trezeguet was potent for France and in CL, wherever he played. I concede that Inter can be a mess at times, not really helping him.

On Higuain, I was actually thinking a bit of that record season, away game in Turin when Barzagli and Bonucci isolated him and kept him in a box all match...A bit off topic, but he is looking fitter in 2018, he apparently has been on a special diet/regimen (even when on holiday in Argentina last month), yeah he has a few factors working against him from repeating that 2015-16 form..Allegri can be a bit defensive too - not Capello's rigidity, but yeah its not a free flowing attack a la Napoli, still the juve system does not feed only Higuain but Mandzukic floats into centre to feast.

I only got to know RVN at Madrid, to my mind he was a bit different (graceful but not a big threat as per the link you posted), I missed out on him being that rounded.


We've completely rehauled the entire databse purely based on Konamis works. We ignored them for years and then, slowly, people started studying and then trying to find sense in their stats, filtering out anomalies and noticing trends throughout the games. It took years, but by the end of it, we decided they knew exactly what they we're doing, and the entire database is now based upon those works. Whatever their intentions were, they made great works, and refined them over the years into near perfect replications of top tier players.
I admit and agree that the people involved best knew how the stats played in the code of the game - yet things like assigning 7 or 8 Consistency to Zidane or Lampard yielding frequent red arrow insane monsters seems silly though - distorting a good replication. In my view, replication of a player's stats can work in the context of what the rest of the database players are rated at. For myself different PES sites or PSD of before just made PES play in a different "flavour" but many of the players work in context if you use their stats with that entire database. Though PES as a whole will 'feel' different.

Not to slag your guys efforts in past years, I like what PSD has done in recent years - in aligning back to Konami's benchmarks (lower stamina, agility etc.) - but I also like that PSD now and you, jurgens, specifically tend to be harsh even with top tier players, the spreading away of values in a particular stat from a clustering of 75-90 really gives individuality to the players in game. Like Korinov mentioned with Xabi Alonso 2014-16 Bayern set, I have not played with it yet, but the DS to 55 and his lowly speed stats and agility, this looks like great work to really capture the main qualities of that player.



Are we being too harsh, are we taking too long? ... That's really the point I want to get across here.
Yes we probably are from the perspective of most visitors to the site looking for an up-to-date player, but we are not under a deadline to post a final set for the year and lock it till next season once that update is done (like the Konami guys would have to do releasing a game), we have the luxury of more time and greater hindsight to see if a player is sustainably performing at the perceived levels. Also not having deadlines can mean player updates are procrastinated or forgotten.



It's not like "Konami" themselves are creating sets. They have a team for pes, and within pes, they have a team working on sets. We don't know who they are, but they were certainly not burdened by having to design multiples games. Whoever they were they did fucking insane global work, modern and classic, not that it really matters, but I sincerely doubt they were japanese. They had an extreme eye to detail that does not come from casual viewing. I'd imagine they were something like scouts hired for the job.

Yeah I imagine the company was sub-divided into teams assigned different projects/games, but still they churn these out every year the stats "update" over the previous year's game would need to be submitted by a deadline, April 27th 2006 was the release in Japan on PS2, then October 27th 2006 was the release in Europe for PS2 and X box 360 and Windows ports. As far as I know the stats don't differ in the Japanese version, so between August 2005 (PES 5 Japan releases date) and April 2006 the 'scouts'/team of stat experts, had to update the host of players in the OF, along with the new teams included to the game. I don't think they were casuals, but the sheer amount of players and the volume of matches that would have to be consumed, how big would that team have been? Did Konami hire a few full-time employees, or a larger number of 'scouts' on a contract job, and how many do you get with a focus on which leagues ... To me it seems the big name players between each year's version would get more work/tweaks done to their stats whilst less attention to many other players with some stats almost identical between consecutive years. Maybe they refined the top tier players over the years as you say to work as good replicas in context of the entire Konami database. I just think that with the constraints they may have been under, that giving into some player's hype may have happened.
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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby Korinov » 2018 Feb 04, 14:30

jurgens wrote:I appreciate your comment Oriello, but I've got to be real here. We've completely rehauled the entire databse purely based on Konamis works. We ignored them for years and then, slowly, people started studying and then trying to find sense in their stats, filtering out anomalies and noticing trends throughout the games. It took years, but by the end of it, we decided they knew exactly what they we're doing, and the entire database is now based upon those works. Whatever their intentions were, they made great works, and refined them over the years into near perfect replications of top tier players.


This is something I actually consider pretty important. While I have sometimes criticised Konami heavily regarding certain portions of their statsmaking, it's undeniable they overall did a pretty good job, specially considering they started from scratch - in comparison, we've mostly worked with many previous references in mind, and there's no telling how much easier your job can become as a result.

This site only made a huge leap in terms of content quality when we started paying Konami ratings due attention and respect. And to be entirely honest, it could be argued we're not even there yet - there are some things, like the Condition ratings, that have yet to be truly brought to the same standards throughout our entire database.
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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby jurgens » 2018 Feb 04, 14:34

yet things like assigning 7 or 8 Consistency to Zidane or Lampard yielding frequent red arrow insane monsters seems silly though


Zidane only had high consistency in the early games though, back when they we're new to stats making and still defining ladders, he had form 5 by pes 6, then form 5 for his classic sets since. As for lampard, I agree that 8 consistency makes a monster player thats too good, but doesn't Lampard deserve it? I dont know as I didn't watch him much, but he seemed like a high consistency player to me.
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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby Oriello » 2018 Feb 04, 16:46

Korinov wrote:While I have sometimes criticised Konami heavily regarding certain portions of their statsmaking, it's undeniable they overall did a pretty good job, specially considering they started from scratch - in comparison, we've mostly worked with many previous references in mind, and there's no telling how much easier your job can become as a result.
Yes, Konami starting from scratch and making something from nothing was very helpful, the most difficult is making the initial original work, derivatives are easier. I myself most recently used Konami's default Benoit Cheyrou set from PES5/6 for his 10-year older version for 2017, it was a good base that outlined the player and needed only some adjustments to play right.

jurgens wrote:Zidane only had high consistency in the early games though, back when they we're new to stats making and still defining ladders, he had form 5 by pes 6, then form 5 for his classic sets since. As for lampard, I agree that 8 consistency makes a monster player thats too good, but doesn't Lampard deserve it? I dont know as I didn't watch him much, but he seemed like a high consistency player to me.

https://i.imgur.com/Bp9Uv9L.jpg I checked the PES6 OF, he has Consistency 8 and Condition 4, I think in-game screens hide Consistency in PES6 and in the Editor you can see the stat.

Lampard indeed was great in that 2005 on-wards era, he only has Consistency 7 in PES6, and he maybe one of the few players who might be deserving of awesome base stats AND a really high Consistency value. Those form arrows are crazy powerful in game. Even if your team loses consecutive matches and the blue arrow morale descends, high Consistency players often remain immune..Though how often were Chelsea struggling in the Mourinho era? Redefining how leagues were won by how many points they collected every week.

I in my most recent play of 3 seasons with TFC in a "dutch league" found that playing even crappy players with red arrows equivalent to cheating, the ease at which players with much worse stats than Lampard can be dominant and game-winners - it was maddening from a realism perspective. I just stopped playing red arrow players (I imagined they have the flu/red hot fever).

Since I did not play the PES games after PES5 till a few months ago, I did not know if Konami got better at realising the strength of those form arrows, that is good that they did. I suppose for my personal tastes, I just find those one of the areas I want to be really harsh, even if it diverges from more recent Konami laddering. I see players struggling all the time, proven talent like Dybala just being in ghost mode, doing a few things right, then for some matches they look unstoppable. I can't stand the unrealism of red form arrow crap in PES anymore...maybe we can be more "free" in rating top-tier players to higher values and similar to the Falcao, Suarez etc. levels of a few years ago IF we were sever on them in regards with getting high form arrows. So we can capture their max talents in the base stats, but be harsh so that those red arrows are super rare..Players like Lewandowski at Form 6 could be lower, as he is not on a weekly basis living up to his base set. This would also be helpful on players who disappear for a season like Mueller did. We PSD can just flick Form to 1 and negate wondering if many stats need to be dropped, and he is looking better this seasom, the base stats still intact and accurate of his game would now be tempered by raising Form.
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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby Oriello » 2018 Feb 04, 17:14

In the old gen PES yes Conditioning 8, and if it could be hacked he would need more like 10, 8 is not enough in PES as Stamina degrades too much for some machines like Lampard.

The Consistency is the one that gives the form arrows, no? In that, he would get his base stats, which are awesome and a bonus of regular red arrows, which makes even average players into beasts.
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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby jurgens » 2018 Feb 06, 21:00

Image

Staring a new ML as Ajax (registered in england as I want compeition). Don't usually start as a team with actualy players, but wanted to for this team to see what I could mould their players into. Not really sure what I want from the team, I want them to play a poession orientated football, with lots of passing outkets and easy possesion recycling, outside of that I'll try to make it more specific and try to custom players roles based on their abilities. Kinda vague, as I'm not sure what I have yet, I'll structure the team better when I really learn the players more, build to their strenghts. If I can turn a few into stars, I'll be pleased.

Few problems right from the start. PES 2011, all CF's refuse to enter the box and basically operate as false 9's, killing off many types of CF role. So, I'm pretty much forced into picking a player that can make use of that postional role, good distrubutor, or some kinda of disrupter that can bully people in the mid, not really sure, maybe something more akin to Mertens. I would like to get Crouchy though :oops:

Other problems, alot of the players don't ahve much stats, ven de beek can barely play that role, so I need to bring some stability into the mid. I'm thinking either I need to bring in a workhorse, or a tank, or some who can play possesion solid, not sure which. The team is weak as fucking shit though, average BB most be outside of greens. I think I really need to bring in some muscle, especially at the back. Thinking I'd really like to bring In kouibaly, but I started in the d2, with no money whatsoever. So he won't come to me even if I have the money, which I won't have for a long time.

Really, I just want a wall at that back. And some sort of player to bring the mid together, whatever that may be. Having problems with everyone atm. Since I'm pretty much forced to bring in a player who can play false 9, a less goal orientated, more support based CF, I don't know wtf to do about my wingers. As they are mostly just dribblers and assisters atm, so i dunno where the goals will come from.
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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby jurgens » 2018 Feb 06, 21:46

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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby jurgens » 2018 Feb 07, 02:15

For transfers?

edit: if you're asking why I don't play with devolpment on. i don't like how overpowered it makes people. I also think along the lines, if you've got a few yellows and a decent enough set, that player can become a true world class player in game, you just need to learn them inside out and work out the best possible way to use them, and compliment them in the team. Thats what I'm mostly interested in.

I've been thinking of trying out devolpment recently though. I'd have to learn what the growth rates are though, and then edit them on my OF.
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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby Korinov » 2018 Feb 07, 11:43

jurgens wrote:I've been thinking of trying out devolpment recently though. I'd have to learn what the growth rates are though, and then edit them on my OF.


Each player follows a specific growth curve, there are more than 100 of them. Standard, Standard/Lasting, Early, Late, etc. are just simplifications, categories to lump them together.

Regarding the rates, I'm not sure they can be actually modified anyway. The PES growth system has always been a bit insane, although truth to be told, in 2010/2011 they toned it down a bit.
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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby Maracanazo » 2018 Feb 07, 12:38

development growth in PES serius too unnatural. even a bench warmer can has a wonderkid growth :(
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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby Major general Woof » 2018 Feb 12, 00:51

jurgens wrote:For transfers?

edit: if you're asking why I don't play with devolpment on. i don't like how overpowered it makes people. I also think along the lines, if you've got a few yellows and a decent enough set, that player can become a true world class player in game, you just need to learn them inside out and work out the best possible way to use them, and compliment them in the team. Thats what I'm mostly interested in.

I've been thinking of trying out devolpment recently though. I'd have to learn what the growth rates are though, and then edit them on my OF.


Development in earlier games like 6 and 2008, and on PS2 even in 2011/12 was prone to producing players who don't have any weaknesses. In 2010 and after that, they made it a lot harder for a player to grow a point when the stat comes in the red zone, also the 2011 generation doesn't allow players to grow TW by much (in 12 and 13 TW is how much a player is adapted to the team and often starts in 40s in ML) and speed stats are not as easy to train, which is realistic, but technical stats and BB are okay. It is a very fun mode, but bear in mind that after about 4-5 seasons (if you play that long with one team), you could get a whole lot of nobodys with high yellow and orange overalls. The fun part is that you don't really know what the time will make of a player, as development sheets are not 100%
accurate rules for how a growth line will behave. You could get 30+ yrs old Iniesta to fall by 2 points in some physical stats by the end of the first season
and think he's done for life in the next season, but in spite of that some technical stats might grow by one or stay the same (those in red are hard to raise) if you keep him playing as much as you can and he gives good performances. It is not so predictable and it needs your effort for the player, but for the game there is too many players and therefore too many opportunities to create a freak of nature in other teams you don't control.

https://imgur.com/a/pbzeC
You can scroll through my imgur post to find some screenshots of my dev. sheets after half of season.
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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby Pavel08 » 2018 Feb 14, 07:13

Hi jurgens can you upload your PES 2011 stuff (Face,kit,OF). Would be very interested in that
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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby jurgens » 2018 Feb 16, 18:20

Well, I got bored of that ML. And just started editing players instead.
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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby jurgens » 2018 Feb 17, 14:36

Been playing with City, and noticed De Brunye is never on the side for his trademark crosses, so I gave him *side. 6 games on 15 mins, and he hasn't gone to the side once. These games are a fucking joke.
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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby Oriello » 2018 Feb 17, 16:13

I thought PES 2011 had the Index Cards? Maybe if the stars are present in an editor they don't actually activate any code in game? In PES 6 I gave Altidore the side star and he would go there maybe once every 6 matches. Use of attack arrows had more impact on this sort of thing, but still not perfect...maybe just tinker with his position, move him as an AMF out of the half space and onto the wing or make his position SMF and drag him more into the centre on the formation screen.
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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby jurgens » 2018 Apr 02, 17:53

jurgens wrote:

Few problems right from the start. PES 2011, all CF's refuse to enter the box and basically operate as false 9's, killing off many types of CF role. So, I'm pretty much forced into picking a player that can make use of that postional role, good distrubutor, or some kinda of disrupter that can bully people in the mid, not really sure, maybe something more akin to Mertens. I would like to get Crouchy though :oops:



So I'ved talk about this quite a bit in the past, it's one of the most infuriatring things in the game. Essentially in pes 2011, you can't play with a CF. You wanna play with a poacher? You wanna play a cross orientated team looking for a great header CF? Well, you can't do any of it, because all CF's won't enter the box, makes runs, or in general, act as center forwards. Cause the game is fucking retarded. They all act as false 9's and try to support 90% of the time. It forces you playing with a player who fits this mould, or playing someone who doesn't in this role anyway. It's the worst thing about the game.

But I've made a breakthrough....

So I had been playing a lot with liverpool, trying to see if Salah is well replicated. And I noticed him making constant runs in behind the defense, so much so that it was unrealistic. After playing with him a few games, I though to myself, this is fucked up.... he acts more like a CF than the actual forwards in game. I was busy so left that thought in the air for a few weeks and never did anything with it. Few weeks later, I had some time to kill so I started playing some games as liverpool again. I started seeing Salah making these crazy agressive runs again, even more so then last time and I figured... I wonder if I played a tradtional CF poacher as an *SS would they start behaving like a CF, or is it just Salahs stats, or the team tactics? Thats another problem with pes 2011, the new system for team tactics heavily effect play... so it's another layer than obscures what it is thats actually causing a player to behave that way.

So... I forgot about this again :lol: But somewhat kept in my mind, yesterday I finally got round to actually testing it. I'm typically very againts testing, because of confirmation bias, and the sheer volume of testing and documentation that would be needed to find legitmiate change, that no one has the time to do. BUT, for this in particular, you don't need that because it's so fucking obvious right as soon as you play a CF, THEY WON'T ENTER THE GOD DAMN BOX. So I started testing Immobile and then Icardi as deep *SS. And lo and behold, the actually started making runs in behind the defense, they stop hanging in midfield, they actually act like CF's!!!!
Tested again with Suarez, Messi, Immobile and Icardi, and it was the same everytime. It's by no means perfect, but they do actually make runs and what not, where as before its infuriating how much they insist on supporting.


So yeah, massive discovery for me, I've been playing this game for fucking 7 years, and just accepted, the game is shit, I can't play with anything but false 9's as CF's, it's just how it is.

I don't know what the actual deal here is.
Is it because they mixed up the coding for the CF and SS positions? Or is it because that was around the time Messi started playing as CF, and SS's and CF's previously played similarly, so they decided to focus on emulating Messi in that role and just made the CF role the false 9. And ss and cf's being similar meant that, with cf becoming false 9, ss became much close to an actual striker? Who the fuck knows. Absolutely fucking useless cunts.
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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby Major general Woof » 2018 Apr 02, 18:20

Are there direction arrows in PES 2011? Team tactics; did you try to change that in some way? Perhaps if the AI thinks that team needs an extra player until some kind of overall position is achieved, the CF will support and act as a post player outside the box, attempting to give option for lay offs and one touch passes?
I know you despise the newer systems of stats, but 2016 has no problem about this at all. I played with Wolfsburg whole season rotating Bendtner and Dost, have to say they were really immense and real strikers, while Perisic was also active in entering the box from SMF position. Why, no idea, it was just his own style of play. You should give it a try to other games, to me it really changed perspective of them. Even if stats were not satisfying, I enjoyed gameplay for the whole season and since testing or statsmaking was not my priority, I missed almost nothing from earlier games.
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Re: jurgens master league thoughts

Postby jurgens » 2018 Apr 06, 01:19

Team tactics; did you try to change that in some way?


I've exhausted basically every single possibility, I've been playing this game for years, man.

I know you despise the newer systems of stats, but 2016 has no problem about this at all


I'm glad that you are able to enjoy them. But I really can't, it's not only the stats, it's just as bad, if not even worse the customization options that were removed.. even going from pes 2010 to 11, the amount of customization that was cut was fucking disgusting, still to this day I think about going back to it for these reasons, and it's just more and more every game. The game gets more boiled down, simplistic, and shit to me every iteration. 16 is the last one I checked out, and the options there are actually laughable, shocking even.

but 2016 has no problem about this at all

There is no problem now though. Infact, now that i've figured this out, it's completely changed the game, realizing the position names are either mistitled or misleading has changed everything. Now I actually like it, because the false 9 role was done extremely well, and having that on top of actual CF's is amazing. I've finally been able to replicate griezman because of this, when before it was very far off reality.
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Re: jurgens master league diary - Atalanta B.C.

Postby donkenke » 2018 Sep 21, 14:51

jurgens wrote:
It's also not surprising to see so many strikers with godlike values in PES 5/6, because the 00s was truly the era of god-tier strikers.


Was it really though?

I mean, it's so easy to look back and think, wow trezeguet and crespo and remeber their best momemnts. And forget the fact crespo had two seasons scoring 20+ in the league, and then completely dropping and never coming even close. Trez broke the twenty mark 3 times, but had many seems hanging much further back with 14 goals, etc. And what about Gilardino? He had two back to back 20 goal seaons, and then completly fell off as well. And his stats back then, were before that fall off.

Henry/RVN/Ronaldo we're all a tier above, and proved their worth over and over again. But the others? I don't buy that they are truly that much better than todays.

Just look at Higuain, you look back at his records, and think... god damn, thats a great consistent striker. But then he moves to serie and enters god tier, and hits 36 fucking goals and breaks the record.

Or Aguero. Agueros about to go onto his 6th season breaking 20 goals in spite of being plagued by injuries.

Or what about Dzeko? Consistently at the 15 mark sharing time with aguero/tevez, broke 20 marks 3 times, and broke many records last year in serie a.

Suarez is about to go on his 7th season breaking 20 goals. I'd put suarez over any single one of them from the 2k's.

Kane is on his fucking 4th season in a row breaking 20 goals, 29 last year.

Icardi is about to be in his third season breaking 20 goals, and hes only 24 now, and hes a poacher.

Lewandowski is going on his 7th/8th season? Breaking 20 goals, he scored 30 league goals back to back.


About this, you shouls also consider that the goals average per match back in 00s were way lower than now. For example:

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_A_(Italia)_1999-2000
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_A_(Italia)_1998-99

In those 2 seasons, there was only four teams that reach the 60 goals mark: Lazio 2 times, Milan and Roma. And now:

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_A_(Italia)_2016-17
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_A_(Italia)_2015-16

14 teams brake the 60 goals mark in this period. Also, the team that reach the most amount of goals in the 98-99-00 period was Lazio with 70, and in the 15-16-17 period 9 teams brake the 70 mark, with Napoli and Roma breaking the 90 mark in the 16-17 season. In Premier league occurs something similar, with the exeption that United brake all the records in the 99-00 season. In La liga taking away Barsa and Madrid this "evolution" doesnt seem so dramatic, but those 2 teams are close to 120 goals in the 15-16-17 seasons, totally unthinkable back then.

In this era, the financial strength of certain teams pervert every stat in terms of total amounts of goals scored or recieved or total ammount of points (serie a had 18 teams back then, but with 20 victories and about 70 points were the mark that champions reach, nowdays champions reach 90 points and 30 victories). All of this talks about inequality (the weaker teams are way weaker that then; it is imposible nowdays that a really good player stays in those teams) boosted by financial resources. Something different is the consistency of players you talk about. But, again, consistency is also determined by inequality (and the strenght and durability of each proyect), in a quite lesser extent. Not saying that what you say is wrong at all, just wanted to state that one should strongly consider this era differences in these kind of comparisons.

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