Andrés Iniesta, Vissel Kobe

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Andrés Iniesta, Vissel Kobe

Postby PES Stats Database » 2008 Dec 09, 10:56

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CLASSIC SET(S): 2011-2013 & 2009-2011 & 2004-2006

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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby frshmn » 2013 Jul 18, 14:24

because they are truly invalid ?


No. They're not. Using statistics as grounding for any argument is only invalid when a particular statistic is taken at face value. Using a pass completion percentage as reasoning for a raise in SPA would be flawed because the percentage as a standalone value tells you nothing whatsoever about the types of passes made, or the circumstances under which they're made. However, were you to combine that with another statistic, such as the mean number of "dangerous passes" made in any given period of time (as they're characterized by Opta), you get a rough idea of the sort of passes a player makes. It's not enough to assess SPA by solely, but it helps. My memory's hazy, but I think the Opta guys put together a visual aid for this sort of thing when they were detailing Steven Gerrard's passing - using a model pitch, they highlighted areas where Gerrard completed passes, and colour coordinated the whole thing so they could illustrate where he'd completed the most passes. I've seen a similar thing done by World Soccer (or it might've been Champions, not too sure) magazine, wherein they used a colour coordinated model pitch to highlight where Zlatan Ibrahimovic had gained possession of the ball over the course of three or four Champions League campaigns. This sort of thing goes a long way in pinpointing values for TW, RES and AGG (you'd be surprised by how often Zlatan would take possession in his own box).

honestly , why do you want to use stats so much when experienced members tell you that it's no use to do so , you're new in the forum so why don't you try to accommodate to it ?


This is just such a huge cop out. Why exactly are you stifling this guy's thought process? Because experienced members told you otherwise? And how is anyone supposed to interpret that final line? You're new to this forum, experienced members think otherwise, so just deal with it? That has to be some of the most twisted, retrograde logic ever posted on the site, and by a mod, no less. It used to be members of this site maintained this same sort of strict adherence to ladders - do I need to remind anyone of how poor the quality of sets used to be, prior to all the redefined stats and the "konamitizing"?

people made/are making sets here to replicate players since a very long time ago, they've put standards ,specific threads to discuss about every aspect of the game , and the site is really useful now-days because of the huge number of excellent and well thought sets that've been build. so how could it be possible that you've found something they didn't discuss that easily ?


You shouldn't be so quick to denounce statistics, because they're the closest thing we have to an exact science. For the record, I think Enzo's been barking up the wrong tree with some of his stats, but it's a step in the right direction, anyway.
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby midnight » 2013 Jul 18, 15:03

i don't think you've got my point , my post wasn't that clear i guess and i must admit that the forcing is a bit rough and not that well explained, but i still think that stats aren't that useful regarding stats making , watching football in a long period of time (teams, player..etc) can provide you enough infos/displays to replicate players effectively, well newbies are using stats as main argument to ask for raises/decreases , the suggestions behind them can be ridiculous at most cases , so how can we say that stats are recommended to rate players ? theres a long way to go , mods aren't always right , of course , their theories aren't undiscussable , and my point wasn't about shutting his mouth because he was a newbie , what i meant was more about the lack of understanding of how things go around here.
for final touches i guess that stats can play a role , but other than that i wouldn't care about what stats sites say , i just can't trust stats that much as they can be as misleading as useful .
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby frshmn » 2013 Jul 19, 14:50

watching football in a long period of time (teams, player..etc) can provide you enough infos/displays to replicate players effectively,


I mentioned, in my last post, a visual aid published by World Soccer magazine which mapped the exact areas of the pitch that Zlatan Ibrahimovic had gained possession over the course of a few Champions League campaigns. According to that visual aid, Zlatan would most frequently pick up possession just outside of the opposition box, but he'd also frequently take possession of the ball on the wing, in centre midfield and, at times, in his own box. With that in mind, what's the likelihood of Zlatan ever picking up possession in the aforementioned areas in game? What're the chances of Zlatan going out wide with 77 RES, 68 TW and the P16 card? Or better yet, what're the chances that he takes possession in his own box? It's not at all likely.

Zlatan's set is one of the most heavily worked on the whole site, but even then his possession stats will come as a huge surprise to most people. I don't doubt that contributors to Zlatan's set have watched football "in a long period of time", but yet no one's mentioned his erratic movement. Recently, you've been one of the most frequenter posters in Zlatan's thread, and you've not even mentioned his tendency to move out wide, drop deep and whatnot. What am I supposed to infer from this? That you really don't pay enough attention to players you comment on, or that you haven't watched him for a long enough period of time (which, according to you, is all you really need to replicate players effectively)?

I'll try and find the visual aid if it's posted online somewhere. Failing that, I'll try and find the copy of World Soccer magazine it was published in and take a picture. It's compelling stuff, really.

well newbies are using stats as main argument to ask for raises/decreases , the suggestions behind them can be ridiculous at most cases ,


That's neither here nor there. Whether or not a user can interpret stats has no bearing on the veracity of any one stat, it just says something about the user in question. Enzo didn't necessarily hit the nail on the head when he was using stats to back up his claims, but that's an isolated case. That in itself is no reason to disregard stats altogether.

but other than that i wouldn't care about what stats sites say , i just can't trust stats that much as they can be as misleading as useful .


You've missed my point entirely.
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby victorjbm » 2013 Jul 19, 15:47

(First, sorry for my bad english)
Iniesta is the best player in the world in 2013
i think he need a few changes
This video is the explanation to everything
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzBiC9e0R3w

Long Pass Accuraty color orange 90 or 91
Long Pass Speed 84 or 85
Body balance a little higher, 77

P03 Trickster (he is a monster in one vs one with defender, and sometimes he plays like forward SS, so he can use this skill)
P06 Pintpoint Pass (you can see this in the video, too)
S02 Outside Curve (a few parts in the video)
S06 Long Range Drive (master in elevating ball, for example, like he did once time vs real madrid with Messi's assistance)
S11 Flicking Skills
S13 Step On Skills

Maybe you think it's too much, but I think like this Iniesta should me more Iniesta
PD: Add the video to the page, it's an amazing video, it's perfect to see everything Iniesta does
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby the sloth » 2013 Jul 19, 15:50

xxx
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby frshmn » 2013 Jul 19, 19:39

^ Duly installed. Unfortunately, I can't find an appropriate key which denotes which parts of the pitch players take possession, but I suppose that's a little too specific. As I recall, you'd actually have to pay and subscribe to Opta for that level of detail.

For me, personally, rating a player's off-the-ball tendencies is the most difficult part of stat making, so a tool like this is near indispensable.
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby the sloth » 2013 Jul 19, 20:09

xxx
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby frshmn » 2013 Jul 19, 20:44

I suppose it'll do, although the aid published by World Soccer included everything from loose balls gained, to aerial battles won. It was just a very general, very detailed illustration of where possession was gained, but I'll make do for now.
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby Korinov » 2013 Jul 21, 18:47

Regarding the whole statistics issue, I do believe they can be sometimes used to back up some arguments already developed from watching football footage. I.e., you watch some matches of X player, you have the impression that he's a phenomenal passer then you suggest a certain raise and provide some passing completion/through balls attempted statistics as additional support. That's ok. What I won't accept is "he needs more SPA than Whoever because he has a higher successful through balls percentage"... from my experience around here statistics tend to be used by people when they simply can't provide actual proof (i.e. footage) for their arguments. Regarding the so called "football webpages"... please, pretty please, some of the stupidest things I've read in my whole life can be found there. Not to mention the insane and retarded obsession with ratings... "- hey Bale got an 8.3, so he had a great match + did you actually watch him? - no + fak off".
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby viktoristus » 2013 Sep 04, 23:02

Why Side: R? When he plays as a WF (or SS), it's always on the left.

http://www.football-lineups.com/match/148520/
http://www.football-lineups.com/match/150303/
http://www.football-lineups.com/match/152621/

And when CMF, he also plays on the left side.
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby midnight » 2013 Oct 26, 21:19



#WeakFoot
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby Fantasista » 2013 Oct 27, 00:00

Dat HASHTAG... :geek: BTW it rather looked like Messi was using his weaker shoot with that miss ;)
show some fcking respect
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby Korinov » 2013 Nov 29, 01:23

Seems no longer the Cond 7 guy of his past two seasons or so... looks like he's back to his more inconsistant days, probably due to fitness issues but still. Also the ATT 89 was probably overdone due to the 'vision' thing we considered at that moment, 87 like in his classic set could be enough. And Side could perfectly be L alone, it's been a long time since he's played on the right (I'd say since the Euro 08, as far as I'm concerned).
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby Sui Generis » 2013 Dec 04, 08:14

*isnt he worth red spa nowawdays?*

Also maybe a slight raise in BB, he is sturdier now, i think he has been for a while now. I think there should be a difference when compared to his classic set, they are pretty much identical aside from shooting stats and DS.

He really is capable of incredible through balls and top class flicks/give and goes. Not saying 94 isnt top tier, i just think iniesta has become better since 2009 in his vision and passing ability. There are many games that iniesta becomes the midfield leader when xavi isnt available and he takes the reins as good as almost anyone.

Def feel he has changed more than this set suggest. That or the classic one is overrated in some areas.
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby jurgens » 2013 Dec 04, 08:51

Like I said in Zidanes thread, Iniesta is probably better in every aspect of short passing than Zidane ever was. Take from that what you will.
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby Sui Generis » 2013 Dec 05, 09:54

just how good do u think iniesta is in terms of SPS and SPA?

You have already stated that zidanes short passing stats interfere with the latters, but they provide a realistic feel to his set. Ultimately I do feel that Zidane is one of the best short passers ever, he was just so consistent and creative with his passing, and i have never seen anyone work the middle of the pitch like he does with those ridiculous one two's of his. He was the best playmaker of his time.

I dont know if iniesta is more accurate than zidane but he for sure has more SPS, but i think a lot of that has to do with modern day pitches, the pace of the game has changed dramatically. iniesta is capable of putting some serious pace on his through balls, he can honestly penetrate any defence. Example 2011 champions league semi vs madrid (1-1), iniesta assist to pedro.

I think iniesta should sit on 96 SPA and 94-95 SPS. That may seem high but these stats represent a playmaker that is a centerpiece of the greatest passing team ever.
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby saitek » 2013 Dec 08, 22:14

Maybe there can be a discussion about his short passing, I've always felt his SPS has come short to what he can actually do. But even more necessary than that, it's a decrease in form. He's been playing like a zombie lately
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby vinnie » 2014 Feb 10, 03:57

i had meant to mention this around october or so, but i guess i forgot. what i mean to say though is that iniesta's sps should really go up. 91/92ish. i don't know if his spa should go up, but the range and speed of his passes can't really be denied.

other more recent note. i really don't like iniesta's lpa being so close to cazorla. it seems completely wrong imo, the way the two compare. cazorla has clearly better accuracy in my eyes, a bigger gap then 1 point, and iniesta is the one with greater range and speed on his long passes. anyone think the same? it's just the way i see it.
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby Korinov » 2014 Feb 10, 09:36

We had talked in the chat about upgrading SPA to 96 and upping SPS a bit as well. So nothing wrong with me IMO. Can't really tell about long passing.
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Re: Andrés Iniesta

Postby brazilianpesfan » 2014 Feb 16, 00:55

Sorry for the bad quality of the video, probably better ones (His individual highlights probably) will appear within few days, but I had to post it:



That was really insane, imo.

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