Attributes vs Statistics


enbsports
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Attributes vs Statistics

Postby enbsports » 2013 Feb 02, 03:26

First let me say that I have come across this site in past google searches and find the work done on the site is interesting information in as much in analyzing the game of football as improving game play.

Although I was recently introduced to your site formally in a twitter communications in talking about the statistical output of certain players. To introduce myself my name is Aaron Nielsen, I run the blog enbsports.blogspot.com and have been tabulating statistics in football since the English Premier League started in 1992 and currently do statistics for over 60 leagues and tournaments in the world (here is a review of the statistics i produced for the 2011-2012/2012 seasons - http://enbsports.blogspot.ca/2013/01/20 ... occer.html ) Within my database I have the complete career statistical records of over 60,000 players worldwide.

I have to say since then I've been reading a lot of posts looking at certain players I'm aware of who have excelled statistically in certain categories like the most headed, direct free kick or goals out of the 18 yard box and would say that your attributes for these correspond well with the players tabulated total. I also read some of the analysis you do in creating your attributes and although I might numbers friendly I do think the idea was very well thought out.

Although in a lot of ways I'm newbie to the site and to your world. I'm located in Canada and have done work with EA so I'm mostly a FIFA guy. I do own a copy of PES for PS3 but other than to fool around haven't played the game much do to a lack of management gaming or statistical tracking. I assume that your work is done to improve your experience on Pro Evaluation and I guess my first question is are you able to expand the PS3 or PC game play with this additional information. Are you also able to upload the information into the game or do you have to enter the information in manually.

My second question is regarding the attributes how are they produced. I did read the post saying statistics lie :) I can agree with some of that but would be interested in knowing how much do past statistics play in your analysis. Next and this is a issue I always deal with is level of play and how do you take this in account when evaluating players between divisions or even leagues.

Hopefully I can be apart of the community to fully understand the environment as I think you guys are doing really interesting work and as I said before helping people gain a better understanding of the game at global level which primarily the purpose behind my work as well.

Cheers

Aaron

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Re: Attributes vs Statistics

Postby jurgens » 2013 Feb 02, 05:42

My second question is regarding the attributes how are they produced. I did read the post saying statistics lie


Thats a very old post, that belongs to the "old generation of psd", who had quite a few problems with rating stats. Though he has a point, statistics have their place, but only when used ontop of actual firsthand expereince of seeing the "statistic" in action over an extended period of time. For example, mertesacker has a pass success rate of 92%, while yaya toure has a 90%. That would imply mert is the better passer. But watching the two, we know mert just plays the ball from the backline to the closet people to him.. pretty standard as he is a CB. But yaya can play any type of pass he wants, regardless of the distance or difficulty and still have unerring accuracy regardless. So its pretty obvious who the more accomplished passer is, regardless of the statistics.


My second question is regarding the attributes how are they produced.


Really just through watching a lot of football and then trying to put all players level in a certain ability, in a scale of 1-99. It takes a very long time to get used to.


Hopefully I can be apart of the community to fully understand the environment as I think you guys are doing really interesting work and as I said before helping people gain a better understanding of the game at global level which primarily the purpose behind my work as well.


This is mostly my reason for being here too. I'm always trying to force players stats on people, regardless if they play the game or not, just because... I think stats are truly great. I could show you a player you have no idea about, and the stats would clearly give you a very good indication of what sort of player the person is. A lot of the finer aspects of football goes missing on the general followers, but I think stats help say.. "Hey look at this guy, he has some truly beautiful aspects to play his play, a real genius. That last sentence would really apply to yaya. There seems to be some mass-misconception that yaya is a monstrous destroyer in the mid, many still call him the best DMF in the world. But if you look at our stats, you can see they don't suggest that at all. They show that hes actually quite a lazy player, but at the same time, a real genius distribuitor.. someone who can really dicate the game through his passing alone. Hopefully, people then see the stats and think to themselves "I never looked at what he was doing in that much detail before" then that gives them an appreciation, and hopefully it starts them analyzing the game more and more. I think it also helps them truly expand their appreciation of what they see as a good player.
enbsports
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Re: Attributes vs Statistics

Postby enbsports » 2013 Feb 02, 08:54

That makes a lot of sense and I fully understand where you're coming from. I have a business relationship with OPTA and I'm amazed the number of types of statistics they are able to record although when you start recording data such as passing you tend to create more question then you do answers.

In 1992 when I stared recording EPL statistics (i put this ebook for free download with complete data of the EPL - http://enbsports.blogspot.ca/2012/07/vi ... t-and.html ) it was vital for me to understand the basic attributes of players which I gathered through statistics as this was the norm for me in terms of following North American Sports. I continue to record data from the bigger leagues but now I actually find data that I tabulate from lesser leagues (for example English Conference) more interesting because I'm learning things about players I knew little about.

In terms of giving attributes I've worked professionally in other sports such as Baseball, Basketball and Ice Hockey and scouting for those sports is almost the exact same system you use on your site although they tend to limit the amount of categories. For example in Baseball its Hand/Eye Coordination, Strength, Speed, Throwing Ability, and Fielding. Scouts for pro teams like you rate each out of a 100 (although they only go by 5's) and then sign or draft players accordingly. Actually the book/movie Moneyball is basically the story where a team went beyond this and used more detailed statistics as well.

Personally I think you guys are doing a really cool thing and I wouldn't be surprised if clubs are using your site in scouting the actual player. I know if I worked for a club it would be an important tool in my evaluation just like the player stats.
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Re: Attributes vs Statistics

Postby vinnie » 2013 Feb 02, 09:55

Statistics are an great aspect of roughly looking at the overall effectiveness of a player. But in a game where intellectual and technical skill is so critical to superiority, quantifiable statistics are not always relevant in acquiring an accurate idea of the worth of a player. It is nice to know/use measurements for distance covered, or aerial win percentage, or shot accuracy/efficiency, etc, but the truth is, qualitative aspects are lost in translation from quantitative statistics.

Therefore there is a limit on what sort of statistics we can actually consider when trying to accumulate a view of a player, and often they are used very general specifically. For example, if one wanted to support the idea that a player is constantly penetrating and attempting difficult dangerous passes, you could use an impressive throughball/game average statistic of the player. Or if you wanted to get a reinforcement on an inference on a players conversion efficiency, you could use scoring percentage (per chance).

But the thing is, that you really can't create an accurate view of a player based solely off of statistics.
.. how do you take this in account when evaluating players between divisions or even leagues

Opposition strength (general league strength), position, team role (poacher, no 10, guy who takes all freekicks/penalties/goals, etc), chances, difficulty of attempted skill, And the difficulty and significance of competition cannot be accounted for amongst lower leagues and less desirable/relevant cup tournaments statistically and can all potentially inflate a player if you consider him by his statistics.

As well, technical and intellectual aspects of the game are lost from statistics and numbers. A crucial aspect in determining quality in certain abilities.

You simply can't measure the quality of a pass, you can't differentiate the difficulty and technical difficulty between one through pass, and another, when it is simply represented as a number. You can't see the difference between a pass like this: A, and a pass like this: B, pass A is clearly far more difficult and precise then pass B, and yet, they will both be considered quantifiably, as an equal through ball. And not only that, Busquets would get more statistical weight for the pass having provided an assist, while Villa could not similarly finish his chance.

This is why we conclude that the best way, the ONLY way to have a fully accurate view of a player, is to painstakingly observe his actions on a field, and apply them, in our case, to PES stats, in our efforts to create a player the closest we can to realism.

A person familiar with PES can get a very good sense of a player from looking at their PES stats here at PSD.

There are limits to the capability of PES as a game engine, but due to the way we research players in the process of rating their stats correctly, the knowledge contained in the comments and posts of this forum, is richer, more accurate, more meticulously, and objectively determined, then any other type of statistics or football information related website. I honestly will tell you, that it is my firm opinion, that there is no greater accumulation of real football knowledge anywhere compared to here at PSD.

Spoiler: show
PS, i can understand the statistical culture of north american sports anyways, i'm a huge native canucks fan, GAA SV% etc, i grew up with that stuff haha, and it's all fairly applicable to baseball/football/basketball, all fairly direct style sports, but football has such a huge difference in approach, and even cultural style in the tempo, importance of strategy, the magnitude of a moment of genius, a brilliant touch, a intelligent run, there is no real way to compare the sports, and so comparisons, and attempts to describe football statistically, often prove futile and in vain alas.
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enbsports
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Re: Attributes vs Statistics

Postby enbsports » 2013 Feb 02, 20:14

There is a famous quote by Bill James who is basically the inventor of statistical analysis who says the difference between a Hall of Fame player (Great Player) and an average player is what they do in a limited amount of games in a season. Meaning if you watch a player a limited amount of times you may scout him as great or poor because you might be watching his best or worst performance.

I know many examples of this in football where I watched a game or a collection of games where I had great expectations for a player although his career never became anything. So in this having a track record through statistics of every game this player has played is a valuable tool and through these results you can find a trends on what you should expect from this player.

I agree with you since the statistic of passes hasn't been fully developed it's a poor statistic to use in analysis. Although I think there are aspects of passing mostly assists and at some level turnovers that show what a player can excel or have trouble in that aspect of the game. Passes have never been recorded in other sports like Basketball and Ice Hockey that have similar development of play because it's too much effort to record that stat and it doesn't have much value. Sure if a player passed only 40% you can use that as an evaluation but if the difference between two players is 5% it means nothing when the total number of passes is 5000.

I think the problem with your argument at the professional level is a lack of proof if you were a scout or an agent of a player presenting that player purely based on your PES Attributes evaluation it be hard to justify the analysis other than being an opinion where if you use stats you could say he played this many minutes, scored this many goals by this manner, this many assists and this many shots on target and so on.
sanikaroy
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Re: Attributes vs Statistics

Postby sanikaroy » 2019 Jun 12, 11:23

Great Information.well Done :)
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Re: Attributes vs Statistics

Postby Smitashinde » 2019 Sep 28, 06:33

Excellent thread! Thank you!
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Re: Attributes vs Statistics

Postby Moreruchika » 2019 Oct 07, 05:31

Excellent thread! Thanks for sharing!
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Re: Attributes vs Statistics

Postby Malusarekomal » 2019 Oct 18, 05:18

Excellent share! I got valuable information here. Thanks for sharing!
Harmanpubg18
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Re: Attributes vs Statistics

Postby Harmanpubg18 » 2020 Aug 11, 11:41

Really just through watching a lot of football and then trying to put all players level in a certain ability, in a scale of 1-99. It takes a very long time to get used to.

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