*All credit for the name of the thread goes to Fides for his Eredivisie thread,although i don't know if it was meant to be as ironic.
*You can't blame me for trying
The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
Moderators: bitz, Houy, stavrello7, Mod's
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Houy
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The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
So this is a thread for chatting about our league where all sorts of interesting magical things happen.To our elusive Greek members,plz feel free to join the discussion.
*All credit for the name of the thread goes to Fides for his Eredivisie thread,although i don't know if it was meant to be as ironic.
*You can't blame me for trying
*All credit for the name of the thread goes to Fides for his Eredivisie thread,although i don't know if it was meant to be as ironic.
*You can't blame me for trying
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Houy
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Re: The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
Updated new Gen stats and styles for the league 
.
the latest are a little rushed, my hands started going numb
. the latest are a little rushed, my hands started going numb
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Houy
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Re: The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
Terrible game by Olympiakos yesterday, and a really solid performance by Partizan.The center was irresponsive and irresponsible defensively and build up was almost nonexistant.
For Partizan, Jevtovic instead of Kosovic provided an extra defensive presence, Everton was less restricted to defensive duties and Partizan managed to forward the ball to the front 4 very well in general, bypassing the midfield with few passes. From then on, the defence of Olympiakos clearly had problems with both Sumah and Jankovic. Both Figueiras and Koutris are not good defensive SBs (the first had a very bad game in general yesterday) and were exposed repeatedly. The left side in particular, of Koutris and Retsos, was very susceptible to Jankovic's personal attempts and his and Vulicevic's combinations because of their inexperience and lack of tactical awareness.
As for the first game, Partizan were expected to set the tempo and did so in the first half where Olympiakos played on the counter which suits the team's current readiness to create play as a group a lot more, as we can surmise from the second game. Partizan was ineffective though (as opposed to an inadequate Olympiakos in their home performance) and a little one dimensional in their creative efforts. In the second half, Olympiakos picked up their performance noticeably, and were a lot more dominant in the midfield ,now with Odjidja Ofoe dropping deeper to iniciate build up ( as opposed to Siopis in the first half, something that's clearly not part of his repertoire and resulted in lots of mistaken passes and lost possession) Odjidja was also a lot more attentive and aggressive in his defending. That, paired with the fact that Marin, Carcela, Ben and Seba could breach Partizan's defence, when advanced ,with relative ease turned a balanced game in the way it was playing out (in the sense that the home team attacked with little effect and the away team couldn't fully take advantage of the open space) to a far more advantageous set up for Olympiakos.
Partizan's 4-4-2 ,which at times looked a 4-2-4, is an exploitable system, though Partizan permormed fine with it and was clearly the team more comfortable in their own skin. That said, what's needed most for it to be more functional is a suitable partner for Everton Luiz, since Kosovic isn't a conventional CM as i undertand it but an AM and Jevtovic is defensively oriented but sloppy and a limited player in general.
On the other hand Olympiakos is in a transitional period with 5 newly aqcuired players in both games' XIs, so there's not much expectation for the moment regarding the team's cohesiveness and level of performance.
- As for best and worst permormers... Tawamba was so impressive, a player that can take advantage of his physicality (that particular physicality
) is something rare, immense in holding the ball and really made what looked a 4-2-4 a lot of the time work unexpectedly well (unexpected for me ofcourse), bringing his teamates into play fantastically, particullary in the second game where Sumah and Jankovic had more space to move, he was just great.
As for Ben, for me he earns pretty close to the highest mark for both performances( with his talents in mind ). In the first game both goals were for the most part his babies. In the first one he starts the effort by stealing the ball from Everton, does the 1-2 with Marin, ends up inside the box with a great incicive run and makes a great first touch to get himself at a shooting position in very tight space with Partizan's whole defence around him (it's important to note here that Ben's first touch isn't his best feature) and makes a very difficult finish as well. The second goal is a more straightforward individual effort. In other fronts, he was solid in his decision making, held on to the ball well and contributed defensively more than he does standardly, ofcourse he created danger with his movement. He's not really to blame for not shining in the second game, there was less space for him to exploit, service was meager and he isn't some great target in the box ( something Olympiakos doesn't have at the moment ).
- Now for the stinkers
, most of Olympiakos' individual performances earn a lower score than the equivalent ones of Partizan, especially in the second game. Concerning the ones that stood out negatively in the individual level, Odjidja Ofoe had a bad first half in Serbia, a great scond half and a terrible second game, many moments of absent mindedness and lots of giving away possession. Fortounis was also terrible in the time he played.
As for Partizan, i'd pick Ostojic's first game especially. He seemed very unhinged when faced with any quick footed opponent and quite irresponsive in general. Ben's goal was a moment of individual brilliance but it was he that took on Ben in a very straightforward way and was beaten, in Seba's personal effort he also staggered and the third goal might have taken Partizan's defence by surprise and Figueriras and Emenike both did great in that goal but he was out of position and didn't get what had happened until too late. To be fair, i am putting him on the spot because he's the more experienced one and considered a solid defender, as i understand it.
To sum up, i think the way they played, both team's would have conceded 2-3 goals for different reasons, Olympiakos was in danger because they seemed unconnected in most areas of the pitch and unfamiliar to each other, and Partizan due to their shaky defence and more easily exploitable system. Had Jevtovic played in the first game, unimpressive as he looks, the game could have been even tighter just for adding more balance to the center, though they would have lost a more creative player. Had Jankovic converted that last opportunity with 4 minutes to go and added time it could have gone either way no question.
But as the aggregate scoreline suggests, the qualification was decided by two moments of great football from Mohamed Ben, and he was wearing the red and white shirt .
For Partizan, Jevtovic instead of Kosovic provided an extra defensive presence, Everton was less restricted to defensive duties and Partizan managed to forward the ball to the front 4 very well in general, bypassing the midfield with few passes. From then on, the defence of Olympiakos clearly had problems with both Sumah and Jankovic. Both Figueiras and Koutris are not good defensive SBs (the first had a very bad game in general yesterday) and were exposed repeatedly. The left side in particular, of Koutris and Retsos, was very susceptible to Jankovic's personal attempts and his and Vulicevic's combinations because of their inexperience and lack of tactical awareness.
As for the first game, Partizan were expected to set the tempo and did so in the first half where Olympiakos played on the counter which suits the team's current readiness to create play as a group a lot more, as we can surmise from the second game. Partizan was ineffective though (as opposed to an inadequate Olympiakos in their home performance) and a little one dimensional in their creative efforts. In the second half, Olympiakos picked up their performance noticeably, and were a lot more dominant in the midfield ,now with Odjidja Ofoe dropping deeper to iniciate build up ( as opposed to Siopis in the first half, something that's clearly not part of his repertoire and resulted in lots of mistaken passes and lost possession) Odjidja was also a lot more attentive and aggressive in his defending. That, paired with the fact that Marin, Carcela, Ben and Seba could breach Partizan's defence, when advanced ,with relative ease turned a balanced game in the way it was playing out (in the sense that the home team attacked with little effect and the away team couldn't fully take advantage of the open space) to a far more advantageous set up for Olympiakos.
Partizan's 4-4-2 ,which at times looked a 4-2-4, is an exploitable system, though Partizan permormed fine with it and was clearly the team more comfortable in their own skin. That said, what's needed most for it to be more functional is a suitable partner for Everton Luiz, since Kosovic isn't a conventional CM as i undertand it but an AM and Jevtovic is defensively oriented but sloppy and a limited player in general.
On the other hand Olympiakos is in a transitional period with 5 newly aqcuired players in both games' XIs, so there's not much expectation for the moment regarding the team's cohesiveness and level of performance.
- As for best and worst permormers... Tawamba was so impressive, a player that can take advantage of his physicality (that particular physicality
) is something rare, immense in holding the ball and really made what looked a 4-2-4 a lot of the time work unexpectedly well (unexpected for me ofcourse), bringing his teamates into play fantastically, particullary in the second game where Sumah and Jankovic had more space to move, he was just great.As for Ben, for me he earns pretty close to the highest mark for both performances( with his talents in mind ). In the first game both goals were for the most part his babies. In the first one he starts the effort by stealing the ball from Everton, does the 1-2 with Marin, ends up inside the box with a great incicive run and makes a great first touch to get himself at a shooting position in very tight space with Partizan's whole defence around him (it's important to note here that Ben's first touch isn't his best feature) and makes a very difficult finish as well. The second goal is a more straightforward individual effort. In other fronts, he was solid in his decision making, held on to the ball well and contributed defensively more than he does standardly, ofcourse he created danger with his movement. He's not really to blame for not shining in the second game, there was less space for him to exploit, service was meager and he isn't some great target in the box ( something Olympiakos doesn't have at the moment ).
- Now for the stinkers
, most of Olympiakos' individual performances earn a lower score than the equivalent ones of Partizan, especially in the second game. Concerning the ones that stood out negatively in the individual level, Odjidja Ofoe had a bad first half in Serbia, a great scond half and a terrible second game, many moments of absent mindedness and lots of giving away possession. Fortounis was also terrible in the time he played.As for Partizan, i'd pick Ostojic's first game especially. He seemed very unhinged when faced with any quick footed opponent and quite irresponsive in general. Ben's goal was a moment of individual brilliance but it was he that took on Ben in a very straightforward way and was beaten, in Seba's personal effort he also staggered and the third goal might have taken Partizan's defence by surprise and Figueriras and Emenike both did great in that goal but he was out of position and didn't get what had happened until too late. To be fair, i am putting him on the spot because he's the more experienced one and considered a solid defender, as i understand it.
To sum up, i think the way they played, both team's would have conceded 2-3 goals for different reasons, Olympiakos was in danger because they seemed unconnected in most areas of the pitch and unfamiliar to each other, and Partizan due to their shaky defence and more easily exploitable system. Had Jevtovic played in the first game, unimpressive as he looks, the game could have been even tighter just for adding more balance to the center, though they would have lost a more creative player. Had Jankovic converted that last opportunity with 4 minutes to go and added time it could have gone either way no question.
But as the aggregate scoreline suggests, the qualification was decided by two moments of great football from Mohamed Ben, and he was wearing the red and white shirt
.
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Relja
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Re: The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
I am impressed with your knowledge of Partizan players.
This may sound funny but we are the better side than Olympiacos at the moment, who are a team in a making with i must say very very limited coach.
Đukićs terrible idea to start with Kosović in the first game was a big cost as u said. If Jevtović started the first match we'd obviously win the first game. He literally gave Olympiacos a chance to extract a bit of their counter attacking insividual potential, and to score easily. Especially the third goal in BG was so Guardiola, instead of keeping 1:2 a solid result against the odd team that u know better after 90 minutes (even though every proper football follower knew that Kosović in starting eleven was a shitty idea) you rush forward to score and u concide the key goal. Pep did that at Camp Nou against Barca in 2k15 when Neymar scored the third goal.
That also reminded me on Pep, he used Fernandinho roundes with only creative players and attackers so he looked worse than he actually is, covering that much space. Everton looked bad in BG but it was obvious why.
The key thing with Oly is their team defendind which is absolutely terrible. I wouldnt blame Figueiras or anyone. The first and second defensive block are non existant. The distance between the lines is too big and in a matter of second you can enter Olyimpicos' final third.
Đukić exposed our flaws and gave them the opportunity to show a bit of their individual quality. Ben is not even a serious striker to be honest. The one and only way to give him a chance to have his night is to give him a loads of space. He wouldnt be able to be a supportive extra player to hold up the ball if we gave u to keep the possesion
A pragmatic coach would have 65-35 literally with us to beat Olympiacos in agg. I am not trying to disrespect Oly here, they had brilliant results in Europe in the past and they will in the future. A lot bettet than us in both ways. But they are in a bad situation.
If we played defensively with closer lines, giving a possesion to Oly who are completely out of shape with counter attacking players upfront, attacking on counters and positionally playing long balls on Tawamba to immediately keep the ball in your final third we would defo be a big favorites. But we choosed a poor men Guardiola and we failed.
This may sound funny but we are the better side than Olympiacos at the moment, who are a team in a making with i must say very very limited coach.
Đukićs terrible idea to start with Kosović in the first game was a big cost as u said. If Jevtović started the first match we'd obviously win the first game. He literally gave Olympiacos a chance to extract a bit of their counter attacking insividual potential, and to score easily. Especially the third goal in BG was so Guardiola, instead of keeping 1:2 a solid result against the odd team that u know better after 90 minutes (even though every proper football follower knew that Kosović in starting eleven was a shitty idea) you rush forward to score and u concide the key goal. Pep did that at Camp Nou against Barca in 2k15 when Neymar scored the third goal.
That also reminded me on Pep, he used Fernandinho roundes with only creative players and attackers so he looked worse than he actually is, covering that much space. Everton looked bad in BG but it was obvious why.
The key thing with Oly is their team defendind which is absolutely terrible. I wouldnt blame Figueiras or anyone. The first and second defensive block are non existant. The distance between the lines is too big and in a matter of second you can enter Olyimpicos' final third.
Đukić exposed our flaws and gave them the opportunity to show a bit of their individual quality. Ben is not even a serious striker to be honest. The one and only way to give him a chance to have his night is to give him a loads of space. He wouldnt be able to be a supportive extra player to hold up the ball if we gave u to keep the possesion
A pragmatic coach would have 65-35 literally with us to beat Olympiacos in agg. I am not trying to disrespect Oly here, they had brilliant results in Europe in the past and they will in the future. A lot bettet than us in both ways. But they are in a bad situation.
If we played defensively with closer lines, giving a possesion to Oly who are completely out of shape with counter attacking players upfront, attacking on counters and positionally playing long balls on Tawamba to immediately keep the ball in your final third we would defo be a big favorites. But we choosed a poor men Guardiola and we failed.
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Relja
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Re: The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
I am actually angry now again. Đukić is a tactical mess. He is the ONLY reason for our loss. The only... and people in Serbia are proud. U wrote a better analyse than any grobari cunt
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Houy
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Re: The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
I agree, Partizan is at the moment a better team, but i know Olympiakos very well too , and the individual player quality and squad deapth does exceed Partizan's. It's a team that's still in the making though so you can't draw concrete conclusions yet. Hasi's been the team's coach for a month so it's way too early to really judge him as well.
Thank you. Look, i think i do a good job at being neutral in the way i watch the game, but this is exactly why i don't like hearing stuff like that. You can't be definitive in your hypothesis
, saying... If something was different you would have lost no question. It's very... unfootball.
And who said people in Serbia aren't proud . It's first and foremost a football game, for myself completely that, not that i don't get how it's also a sociopolitical conduit.
PS. Know that in all i write i am not trying to even hint at creating a quarrel, just saying this cause you seem a little tense.
PS 2. Ben is not a striker, he is a winger that can play as a pseudo striker. He is an extra choice for both positions but if he's competing to be a starter in one, it's that on the side. Ben is also an underdog that joined pre season 2 weaks before the first game in Serbia, it was uncertain even that he'd stay in the team. Yet he gave his team the win in his first official game with them, and a very crucial one. And that's why he's awesome
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PS 3. Rijeka next, he hardest possible draw. We are getting more interesting games that we ought to at this time, a little too interesting
.
, and the individual player quality and squad deapth does exceed Partizan's. It's a team that's still in the making though so you can't draw concrete conclusions yet. Hasi's been the team's coach for a month so it's way too early to really judge him as well.Relja wrote:I am actually angry now again. Đukić is a tactical mess. He is the ONLY reason for our loss. The only... and people in Serbia are proud. U wrote a better analyse than any grobari cunt
Thank you. Look, i think i do a good job at being neutral in the way i watch the game, but this is exactly why i don't like hearing stuff like that. You can't be definitive in your hypothesis
, saying... If something was different you would have lost no question. It's very... unfootball.And who said people in Serbia aren't proud . It's first and foremost a football game, for myself completely that, not that i don't get how it's also a sociopolitical conduit.
PS. Know that in all i write i am not trying to even hint at creating a quarrel, just saying this cause you seem a little tense
.PS 2. Ben is not a striker, he is a winger that can play as a pseudo striker. He is an extra choice for both positions but if he's competing to be a starter in one, it's that on the side. Ben is also an underdog that joined pre season 2 weaks before the first game in Serbia, it was uncertain even that he'd stay in the team. Yet he gave his team the win in his first official game with them, and a very crucial one. And that's why he's awesome
.PS 3. Rijeka next, he hardest possible draw. We are getting more interesting games that we ought to at this time, a little too interesting
.
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Relja
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Re: The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
This is not Hasi's first job ever to be too early to judge him. He coached Anderlecht...
Its simple like that. Ofc theres nothing sure in football but some things are obvious
Its simple like that. Ofc theres nothing sure in football but some things are obvious
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Relja
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Re: The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
Btw people in Serbia are proud for wrong reasons i wrote that idiots are proud of Đukić. Because he is the only (yes ONLY) reason for our loss
i wrote that idiots are proud of Đukić. Because he is the only (yes ONLY) reason for our loss
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Houy
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Re: The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
yeah, but i've never watched Antelecht .
Ah sorry i misundertood.
hehe, i heard you the first time
.Relja wrote:Btw people in Serbia are proud for wrong reasons
Ah sorry i misundertood.
Relja wrote:he is the only (yes ONLY) reason for our loss
hehe, i heard you the first time
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Houy
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Re: The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
Weird to see Prijovic and Biseswar not playing for Paok, best crosser and best poacher in the league so they are pretty much missing on some guaranteed goals . I'm sure Prijo isn't too happy when Biseswar isn't playeing either . Koulouris and El Kaddouri don't offer any special tactical advantage on their own, tey are closer to what Lucescu prefers, i.e. a more involved CF and more defensive contribution from his AM but overall pretty senseless choices.
. Koulouris and El Kaddouri don't offer any special tactical advantage on their own, tey are closer to what Lucescu prefers, i.e. a more involved CF and more defensive contribution from his AM but overall pretty senseless choices.
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Houy
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Re: The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
So this is the official 11 for last season by PSAP. http://www.gazzetta.gr/football/superle ... a-ton-psap
Both Retsos and Koutris weren't decicive enough last year to earn this honour honestly. A lot of the entrants look like pretty oppurtunistic picks. overall the awards look to be influenced more by relevance than anything else.. Retsos had his big transfer, Gianniotis had his recent great streak, Koutris was a surprise breakout player for Olympiakos this season, Masoud was recently transferred to Aek... not to mention that all the player's belong to either Aek, Pao, Paok or Olympiakos . Also the mere fact that Fortounis is in there is total BS 
.
Both Retsos and Koutris weren't decicive enough last year to earn this honour honestly. A lot of the entrants look like pretty oppurtunistic picks. overall the awards look to be influenced more by relevance than anything else.. Retsos had his big transfer, Gianniotis had his recent great streak, Koutris was a surprise breakout player for Olympiakos this season, Masoud was recently transferred to Aek... not to mention that all the player's belong to either Aek, Pao, Paok or Olympiakos
. Also the mere fact that Fortounis is in there is total BS .
Re: Greek Super League - Players to be created (Updated - 04/2)
We should create the mvp for PAOK in this season,he's name is...offside.This is rediculous.....
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Houy
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Re: Greek Super League - Players to be created (Updated - 04/2)
soad21 wrote:We should create the mvp for PAOK in this season,he's name is...offside.This is rediculous.....
Chill, at least you're keeping up with Paok
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Rex
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Re: The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
Olympiacos were so obviously shit against Partizan, just not as shit as we are, that i actually predicted they will choke in the league after 272727 seasons, and i am hopefully gonna be right. What's happening with that PAOK game?
paok&partizan <3
paok&partizan <3
Relja's not dead
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Houy
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Re: The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
Rex wrote:Olympiacos were so obviously shit against Partizan, just not as shit as we are, that i actually predicted they will choke in the league after 272727 seasons, and i am hopefully gonna be right. What's happening with that PAOK game?
paok&partizan <3
Olympiakos was shit last year too so... let's consider that the stable factor as of late. It has more to do with Aek and Paok stepping up as competitors and outdoing Olympiakos in every way, Aek has been a great football story especially.
Same thing as last year with Ivic... like fucking exact same thing. After the incident the Olympiakos stuff seemed especially eager to capitalise on the situation and withdraw from the game and after some locker room shenanigans the game was put off. Considering how fresh the regulations concerning events like this are i expect they'll go with a strict implementation of the rules so Olympiakos will probably be awarded the game and Paok will have points deducted like Pao in the Ivic incident last year.
It's beyond unfair that Paok might lose their advantage in the title hunt because of some irrelevant moron. Hopefully Olympiakos' point deduction for the Aek game will go through and fortunately Aek didn't beat Atromitos so through some clustefuck manner there will stll be some of the thrill about the title contention through to the season's end, that we haven't had for 272727 seasons ( which is the accurate figure actually, didn't know you had such in depth knowledge on the matter ).
So this has been a fun football weekend... going to throw up now
.
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Houy
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Re: The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
I'll take a big break from watching greek games, fortunately the suspension of the league now precedes me but even if it didn't i get a genuine gag reflex at the mere thought of it after the events of the last few weeks. I think the decision to suspend it is very appropriate, unfair as it is to many people, players and stuff especially from the smaller clubs, it's necessary to atleast temporarily wash this sense of filth from the community's mouth. I consider myself one of the people i just mentioned as i've invested time and effort into watching the product and it just feels soul draining at this point. I am sure more casual watchers feel the same too.
If any foreign members are interested in the events i am sure you can find detailed accounts from other sources, cause i just don't have the energy to bother explaining the situation, hope you understand . I'll just comment that there was nothing close to a justifiable excuse for this shitfest, a legitimately difficult decision for the referee is anything but that.
A side note about this...
...the fact that this little goblin with his ignorant decisions and ridiculous displays had taken a step back from the forefront was an important reason Paok made a claim for the title after all this time, but he wouldn't let that slide ofcourse. It's been evident from the very beginning the ownership of the club is something he considers an extention of his diminutive stature among other things but apparently he needs another one more closely attached to him...
* gasping sigh* ...on a more serious note, if all Aek's claiming really is the case then this clown should be banned for life from the stadium.. league sponsor or not...
If any foreign members are interested in the events i am sure you can find detailed accounts from other sources, cause i just don't have the energy to bother explaining the situation, hope you understand . I'll just comment that there was nothing close to a justifiable excuse for this shitfest, a legitimately difficult decision for the referee is anything but that.
A side note about this...
- Spoiler: show
...the fact that this little goblin with his ignorant decisions and ridiculous displays had taken a step back from the forefront was an important reason Paok made a claim for the title after all this time, but he wouldn't let that slide ofcourse. It's been evident from the very beginning the ownership of the club is something he considers an extention of his diminutive stature among other things but apparently he needs another one more closely attached to him...
* gasping sigh* ...on a more serious note, if all Aek's claiming really is the case then this clown should be banned for life from the stadium.. league sponsor or not...
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antony
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Re: The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
Houy wrote:
Congrats to Aek, Champion !
Olympiacos didn't win
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Houy
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Re: The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
Apparently it's a given by Uefa that if episodes occur Greek football will be banned from European completions for a time. There's tons of police, the foreign referee thing and all the episodes on the center yesterday...
It's interesting to see what happens cause otherwise this is a great match, either team deserved to be champion and it's the big showdown to settle things after all the controversy. Uefa obviously wants to keep Greece since it's not banned already..
It will be really impressive if we are just talking about the outcome of the match by the end. For us that's impressive
It's interesting to see what happens cause otherwise this is a great match, either team deserved to be champion and it's the big showdown to settle things after all the controversy. Uefa obviously wants to keep Greece since it's not banned already..
It will be really impressive if we are just talking about the outcome of the match by the end. For us that's impressive
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bitz
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Re: The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
The Spanish referee was in total control yesterday in a very heated environment. This foreign referee thing should be made permanent at least for big games and derbies. As for the match, PAOK capitalized on their chances better and won fairly, congrats to them.
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Houy
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Re: The always exciting Super League thread ;) ;)
bitz wrote:The Spanish referee was in total control yesterday in a very heated environment. This foreign referee thing should be made permanent at least for big games and derbies. As for the match, PAOK capitalized on their chances better and won fairly, congrats to them.
I wonder if that's realized, the focus was on the football for once and i don't think we can go back anymore...
I have to be honest and say i like how the Aek-Paok rivalry is developing, it draws interest it's a thing to be capitalized if they can keep it focused on the sport . Paok has the momentum heading into next season and is a couple of steps ahead of Aek team building wise. They should be the favorites if they manage not to screw themselves over.
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