Lionel Messi


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Lionel Messi

Postby PES Stats Database » 2008 Dec 09, 10:56

Full Name: Lionel Andrés Messi Cuccittini
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Last edited by vinnie on 2014 Oct 28, 02:26, edited 19 times in total.
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby Alex » 2020 Jan 14, 15:24

furymaker wrote:i dont think thats true, Messi does what Isco does in a stride, at full speed, at any angle, Isco is smooth as butter on his best days, looks classy as hell due to his movement style i guess, Messi doesn't look so classy but his first touch and control on his best days are still level above

Maybe the difference between them isn't a full red point, but I've seen Isco control some impossible balls more easily then Messi.
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby Fixer » 2020 Jan 14, 16:16

They show different skills in control. As furymaker pointed out, it's much more common seeing Messi controlling a ball as he is striding, and he's able to pull some sick tricks with them. Alex is right too, it's easier to see Isco controlling balls you don't really expect anyone to control in such a way that it feels the ball was with him all along. I think the debate is more of a perspective matter, and both could sit on a similar value. I think 97 for both is fine, the 98 Isco had was arguable but imo it was fair aswell.
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby furymaker » 2020 Jan 14, 21:50

Pretty much, Isco does look more effortless in his traps, similar to Thiago on his best days. Messi doesn't have that same elegant style but it's still pretty much flawless, I just think that doing those insane traps in strides is more impressive than those dead on classy controls Isco does.

Doing something while running brings so many more factors in the matter to mess something up, that's why I rate him just above Isco.
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby Mikerdead39 » 2020 Jan 21, 03:48

No chance to add more curling on Messi?
Looking at this goal, it seems to me that the curve it makes is similar to that of Beckham's goal for England.
https://youtu.be/M6K4e5_kHbg?t=783
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby vegitot » 2020 Feb 04, 03:46

At 33 years of age yet he still has completed 6.5 dribbles per game. Incredible.
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby furymaker » 2020 Feb 06, 08:50

to sum up just how crazy good he is - https://twitter.com/arduckling/status/1 ... 5185363968

So take your 11 favorite scorers, their 11 best years, and their record is probably worse than Messi in his last 11 years, that is just fucking insane level of consistency, and its not just numbers, but performances, going from playmaking either with his passing skills, dribbling or scoring goals, dude is on another level, makes one wonder just how much better his record would have been if not for horrible board and even worse transfer policy that has been in the club since Bartomeu took charge of the team.
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby Kim » 2020 Feb 08, 13:39

Csabalala1 wrote:Maybe cause you seem a CR fanboy.

"When it comes to big games with Argentina, well we all know what's the result."

Lets see the facts? Ronaldo do or die matches in big tournaments.

2004 Euro final, 2006 WC semi, 2008 Euro quarters, 2010 WC last 16, 2012 Euro semi, 2014 no match, group stage blow 2016 Euro final, 2017 Conf semi 18 WC last 16...8 matches 0 goal 0 assist, is he the big game player? Ronaldo stayed injury free in every big tournament, but zero result and zero performance (when it mattered), got injured one single time in his history of international football, then Portugal and Eder instantly won him a big tournament. Coincidence? Hardly...

"Ronaldo has scored 99 goals with Portugal, only 28 of them (29%) have been against teams of the 'Top 50' in the world. In the case of Messi, 57 of his 70 goals have been against 'Top 50' (82%)."

So is CR the player who performs in big matches internationally? I have to laugh, sorry if you start trollin you will get a "troll" answer. (with MY facts,not yours, but "These facts are undeniable." with your words.

Plus CR against WC-winners: Ronaldo has never scored against Germany in 4 matches, against France in 4 matches, against Brazil in 3 matches, against England in 3 matches, against Italy in 2 matches and against Uruguay in 1 matches. 17/0.

And the biggest critic against Messi, that he has never scored on WC knockout stages, but CR neither...but Messi at least gave tons of assists in those matches unlike CR.

When will you open the new threads in the CR topic from these?


Oh, you're one of those guys.

I'm not a "fan" of any player in particular, i like CR7 of course but i recognize and praise talent when i see it. To be honest, players like Xabi Alonso and Zinedine Zidane are the ones catching my eyes but they no longer play so my interest in football is fading rather fast since those kind of players are a disappearing species.

You decided to go on a rant about Cristiano Ronaldo, after i have said that Messi has a strong tendancy to drop to a lesser level in big games. Do you realize that those two things are unrelated ?

If you want to talk about big games, why didn't you include the UEFA Champion's League ? Maybe because you know that the player you're bashing on is just the best in history when it comes to that competition, and made his team win singehandely multiple times against the best european clubs in the world.
When it comes to international football, you also intentionnaly omits the fact that CR7 is the reason why Portugal got to the finals of Euro 2016 in the first place. And suggesting that him being injured in the said final is why Portugal won is just a testament to how much you let your disdain for Ronaldo cloud your judgment. You can't hold an injury against a player. He was a huge part of the Euro win, and even if the recently created UEFA Nations League isn't as important, it's still an international trophy nonetheless.

Enough talk about CR7. You derailed this discussion into him so we get back into Messi and his big game failures, so here's a selection of games and competitions over the last decade where he performed WAY under his maximum level;

2010 UCL:
Barcelona played Inter in the CL semifinals. Messi was just bad. Zero goals or assists over the two legs and Barca were eliminated.

2010 World Cup:
Messi played 5 matches. In all the tournament he didn't scored any goal and registered a single assist only. Ended up being man-marked to death by Schweinsteiger and eliminated in the quarterfinals.

2012 UCL:
Barcelona faced Chelsea, Messi didn't score or assist in 180 minutes. Even worse, he missed a penalty that would have won barcelona the series.

2013 UCL:
Got crushed 7-0 in aggregate by Bayern. Messi played one game after an injury and was hardly noticeable on the pitch.

2014 UCL:
Again, horrible against Atletico Madrid, one of his worst performances ever. No goals or assists, and lots of missed chances.

2014 WC:
Good against lesser teams in group stage but fell back to his old habits in the knockout stage. With zero goals or assists combined against Belgium, Holland and Germany.
In the finals against Germany, he had a clear chance, one-on-one with Neuer. A shot that would have won him the most prestigious international trophy of all. With his usual barcelona shooting accuracy it would have been no problem at all but since he seems to be a different player with an Argentina shirt, he just put it wide.

2015 & 2016 Copa America:
Lost back-to-back finals, no impact on both. He crumbled under pressure in the 2016 penalty shootout and put it wide. The psychological aspect of the defeat was so devastating he retired from international football only to come back right after.

2016 UCL:
Disastrous performance in semifinals against Atletico Madrid. No goals or assists in two games.

2017 UCL:
Was a ghost against Juventus. Dybala was the argentinian to watch on both legs.

2018 UCL:
First remontada against Roma. Did nothing except missing a tap-in. Enough said.

2018 WC:
Got his penalty stopped against iceland, whose keeper is a filmmaker. Invisible against Croatia in a 3-0 beating. Eliminated against France despite one assist. Takes an 8 month break from international football after this defeat.

2019 UCL:
All around ok performance, good in the first leg against Liverpool but went missing at Anfield where he experienced his second consecutive remontada. The expectations were big, the failure is even bigger.

2019 Copa America:
A complete disaster. His only highlight was getting into a fight with Gary Medel and being sent-off for that.
Ended up suspended three months after throwing corruption accusations on the ref and the Conmebol.
Last edited by Kim on 2020 Feb 08, 19:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby Kim » 2020 Feb 08, 13:41

Mikerdead39 wrote:No chance to add more curling on Messi?
Looking at this goal, it seems to me that the curve it makes is similar to that of Beckham's goal for England.
https://youtu.be/M6K4e5_kHbg?t=783


If it was up to me, i'd put both his SA and curling at the same level: 96
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby Csabalala1 » 2020 Feb 10, 11:01

"Enough talk about Messi. You derailed this discussion into him so we get back into Messi and his big game failures, so here's a selection of games and competitions over the last decade where he performed WAY under his maximum level"

2010WC played simply horrible, below not his an average striker's standards, zero impact, zero danger

2012 Euro one good match vs Czech republic, but invisable again vs Spain, when Portugal needed him the most, overall a maximum average performance, maximum

2014WC nobody thought he could be worse than in 2010WC, but CR could, pathetic performance

2016 Euro only played good against lesser teams Hungary and Wales (Championship defence), but failed against stronger nations as usual Austria, Iceland, Croatia, Poland, France even missed a penalty under pressure vs Austria, and his injury won the cup for Portugal (Eder)

2017 Confederations Chile neutralized him easily, dont remember anything from CR on Confederations

2018WC Against shambolic Spain without coach in huge crisis (Lopetegui-saga), his only good match in Wc's history with the help of de Gea, the other 3 matches were usual disasterclass on WC's, if he only would have scored the penalty vs Iran, Portugal were on the easy route to the final, but CR failed his penalty again, then Godin and Gimenez put him in their pocket, never could play against WC-champions except the opp with no coach (Spain)...the legendary big game player....

2019 Nations Cup Portugal reached the TOP4 final easily without him (they can only win without CR, interesting)...then failed to perform in the final against Holland again, his teammates won it for him just like Euro 16.

And several UCL finals when he flopped vs Atletico twice-worst player of the pitch, not simple bad, the worst Real player, vs Liverpool rather seemed an amateur, and lot of the times when Real Madrid (Ramos, Benzema, Modric, Kroos, Marcelo and first of all Zidane) saved CR.

CR has the same amount of off matches as Messi, the big difference CR played with better teammates with more leadership skills who can compensate his off-days, (Eder, Ramos, Pepe, Modric etc.) Barcelona or Argentina without a God-level Messi is instantly out, for Real Madrid or Portugal an average or bad Ronaldo is no problem, Ramos steps up, Eder steps up etc etc etc. he is not that important as Messi.

" and made his team win singehandely multiple times against the best european clubs in the world." Absolute false, (Ramos, Modric, Kroos, Isco and a lot more), sorry i dont see CR a Champions league title contender anymore without them, and dont forget Juventus played 2 UCL finals last years. Single handedly my ass. Real Madrid was a special medium for CR, winner-mentality on the highest level, they won 9 UCLs or its predecessor before CR, Modric, Kroos era, Barcelona only 1 before Messi, Xavi, Iniesta era.

And even with this winner-mentality team he failed to compete with Messi's Barcelona....2 Pd's and 2 copas (one final without him, again no problem for his team) only in 9 years, not much, few, very very few...until Messi won 6 and 6...
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby furymaker » 2020 Feb 11, 09:22

I love how Messi's bar is how many goals or assists he had, also plenty of those games you mentioned that he was in invisible, he was actually outstanding in other areas and just couldn't grab a goal and his teammates couldn't convert the chances he put against them.

So in 10 year period you come and pull out 5-6 ties, about 10 matches to say how his performance drop and judge it on goals and assists, literally lied your way into a narrative that's far from truth.

And after all that, he comes and writes "Messi was ok against Lpool in 1st leg, gone missing in 2nd"

Dude scored 2 goals, literally made Liverpool defense, best in the world at that time, look like just an average defensive side, all on his own.

2nd game, wasn't as on point with his shooting, but still created 4 clear cut chances for Alba, Coutinho, Suarez and they didn't convert, but he disappeared.

Not gonna all in details about other games because there's no need to, everyone here can tell from which side you're writing that.


Pointless internet narratives without any logical backing other than "he wasn't superhuman against best team in competition, he disappeared in big games"
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby Ocrin » 2020 Feb 18, 23:14

IMO he's clearly not 89 RES anymore and it should be dropped a bit.
Everyone knew it was impossible. Then came along a fool who didn't know it, and he did it.
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby lito5 » 2020 Feb 22, 22:48

outstanding game today, sometimes I get the feeling that in certain games if he wanted to score 10 goals would do it without any problem
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby Kim » 2020 Feb 25, 01:21

furymaker wrote:I love how Messi's bar is how many goals or assists he had, also plenty of those games you mentioned that he was in invisible, he was actually outstanding in other areas and just couldn't grab a goal and his teammates couldn't convert the chances he put against them.

So in 10 year period you come and pull out 5-6 ties, about 10 matches to say how his performance drop and judge it on goals and assists, literally lied your way into a narrative that's far from truth.


Messi isn't the kind of player to distinguish himself with workrate or crazy off-the-ball movement, he need to get the ball at his feet to produce something.
This isn't a lie or a false narrative but a succession of key games where Messi failed to deliver, year after year. I can understand that it's a painful pill to swallow considering your avatar and such, but it's the reality.

And after all that, he comes and writes "Messi was ok against Lpool in 1st leg, gone missing in 2nd"

Dude scored 2 goals, literally made Liverpool defense, best in the world at that time, look like just an average defensive side, all on his own.


Against Liverpool in Camp Nou, he scored two goals for which the quality of Liverpool defense was irrelevant; A freekick and a rebound.

Not gonna all in details about other games because there's no need to, everyone here can tell from which side you're writing that.


My contribution comes from a place of trying to improve the set, i spent quite a few time trying to argue that Mbappé wasn't worthy of red attack all the while being a PSG supporter. If i'm being harassed and hounded for doing so, for giving up time out of my day to post here and try to contribute to refining sets, it's not even worth it to continue.
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby furymaker » 2020 Feb 25, 10:28

Then you dont watch same game as 80% of mankind does, Messi doesnt need to score goals to have a great game or to perform, way he played against Liverpool in those two legs for instance would be a career highlight for every player, match of their careers, literally for all of them excluding 10-15 players, so a lazy narrative like he didnt score in big games but still created 2-3 clear cut chances for his teammates and was only source of danger doesnt really drink water.
If you didnt pay attention, he scored chances for Alba, Coutinho and Suarez at Anfield where Liverpool defense couldnt stop him, but whatever.

If you created a valid point of saying "he had big games in which he couldnt score goals and was let down by teammates who didnt finish chances he created" i would be fine with it, Messi has like 5 games in his 15y career where he played bad and didnt do much, Roma and Atletico come to mind, but that happened so rarely that cant be even compared to any other player throughout history of the game, he is, by far, the most consistent player that ever played football.

Dude has over 1000 goals and assists in 850 games including the games he was 17/18 and was coming off the bench for majority of those, and if you go from 2007 till today, he has 100 goals more than 2nd best and about 50 assists more than the 2nd player, and is by far the player with most chances created and dribbles completed.

Whichever way you try to turn this attempt of a argument, you will fail since there is no other player that is more consistent in any of your complains towards Messi, he is a standard for so many aspects of the game and till you find another player that comes close to him in this aspects, you should really stay award from arguments with no basis.
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby Kim » 2020 Feb 26, 13:14

furymaker wrote:Then you dont watch same game as 80% of mankind does, Messi doesnt need to score goals to have a great game or to perform, way he played against Liverpool in those two legs for instance would be a career highlight for every player, match of their careers, literally for all of them excluding 10-15 players, so a lazy narrative like he didnt score in big games but still created 2-3 clear cut chances for his teammates and was only source of danger doesnt really drink water.


As a devout fan, you have a blind spot for the bad aspects of his games. And you don't seem to understand that Lionel Messi isn't expected to play like a 77-81 rated Joe Average, but to stay true to the qualities he demonstrates in other games.

If you created a valid point of saying "he had big games in which he couldnt score goals and was let down by teammates who didnt finish chances he created" i would be fine with it


Then according to you, he's basically perfect when it comes to offensive attributes, regularity, mindset, composure, and every shortcoming comes from his teammates not being on par with his level of play. This is truly light-years below the level of analysis that can be found on this forum, really.

Whichever way you try to turn this attempt of a argument, you will fail since there is no other player that is more consistent in any of your complains towards Messi, he is a standard for so many aspects of the game and till you find another player that comes close to him in this aspects, you should really stay award from arguments with no basis.


The basis of my arguments are all the games where he failed to play according to his own stats. Dismissing them as "It's all his teammate's fault" is rather silly considering we are talking about history book tier game deciding chances missed, lackluster decision making where he rushes toward the defense and get dispossessed multiple times, overall low influence on the play, etc.
It's not about his overall goalscoring and assist tally, but his level of play against high-level opposition, in deciding games.

This duality is seen in his last two games; Great against Eibar, lackluster against Napoli, with passes going astray, shots in the stands, unfruitful dribbling attempts, overall bad decision making and plays that are well below his current attributes. He was not absolutely horrible, but his standard level of play is well above what we saw against the italian side.
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby furymaker » 2020 Feb 26, 22:23

You are holding him to different standards just because his standards are so high, no other player is compared to best version of himself and gets criticized for not performing on that same level.
Ofc he has shortcomings and sometimes makes a wrong choice, but whole argument here started with you saying "he played bad in many big games" and for you playing bad is not scoring and everything I wrote was a counter-argument to that point, he doesnt have to score to have a great game, like he did against Liverpool at Anfield.

Let by his teammates argument is there because he created clear chances for them and it happened in most of the games you listed as games he played bad, which is a complete lie.

For instance, game vs Napoli, wasnt one of his best games, but he still did fine even with discomfort he has in his thigh.



So ye, i do have some towards him, but saying he plays bad in big games simply because he doesnt score is a nonsense, which is the point i was making all along.
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby Kim » 2020 Mar 02, 01:10

furymaker wrote:For instance, game vs Napoli, wasnt one of his best games, but he still did fine even with discomfort he has in his thigh.


Today, his game against Real Madrid might have been his worst of the season, and i doubt that Barcelona medical staff would allow him to play if they consider him diminished to the point of not being able to hold his own in important games.

he doesnt have to score to have a great game, like he did against Liverpool at Anfield.


Now history is being re-written to the point where it's acceptable to think that Messi was good at Anfield ? Please.

Every elite player is held by very high expectations. Especially those who are known for their ability to win games on their own: CR7, Zidane, Ibrahimovic, etc...

All the games i talked about have something in common; His percentage of good decisions and dangerous plays. The goals and the assists are a reflection of that essential data.
Moreover, a SS/AM with a 95+ rating in every single technical offensive stat and a track record of scoring braces and hat-tricks on a regular basis is bound to leave his mark on the game either by scoring or assisting, even in the biggest stages of european or international football.
As for games where he gave good passes that didn't lead to a goal; That's common for any creative player.
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby furymaker » 2020 Mar 02, 11:53

Yesterday's game against Madrid was quite bad, not gonna even attempt to defend that, but compare that game and one against Liverpool at Anfield and you will see a clear difference, so its not rewriting history, because he was good in that game.

But whatever, feel free to think whatever you want, I'm done with you
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Re: Lionel Messi

Postby Kim » 2020 Mar 06, 10:07

furymaker wrote:Yesterday's game against Madrid was quite bad, not gonna even attempt to defend that, but compare that game and one against Liverpool at Anfield and you will see a clear difference, so its not rewriting history, because he was good in that game.

But whatever, feel free to think whatever you want, I'm done with you


Watch both games one after the other, and you'll notice striking similiarities in the way Messi plays, his mistakes, subpar decision making, the lack of sharpness and dangerosity in his plays, etc. If you don't, well whatever i guess, i didn't intend to repeat myself a hundred times anyways.
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Re: Leo MESSI

Postby Olivera » 2020 Mar 06, 12:40

Markulur wrote:Agree.
messi agression 98

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