Ryan Giggs | 1993-94 | 1996-99 | 2006-09

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Ryan Giggs | 1993-94 | 1996-99 | 2006-09

Postby PES Stats Database » 2008 Dec 12, 23:20

Nickname: *The Welsh Wizard*

Club: Manchester United


Growth Type: Early/Lasting

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Club: Manchester United


Growth Type: Early/Lasting

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Club: Manchester United


Growth Type: Early/Lasting

Last edited by POSTER#1 on 2008 Dec 13, 16:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ryan GIGGS | 1993-1994 | 1998-1999 | 2006-2009

Postby Yazid » 2012 Oct 12, 13:48

Ribery on 90 is far too high when you consider classic figo is on 90.
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Re: Ryan GIGGS | 1993-1994 | 1998-1999 | 2006-2009

Postby Yazid » 2012 Nov 25, 02:40

Suggestions:

Attack - 87-88
DS - 98
LPA - 86
Tech - 90

Will explain later
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Re: Ryan GIGGS | 1993-1994 | 1998-1999 | 2006-2009

Postby jurgens » 2012 Nov 30, 12:52

This is what I've been using for the young giggs, I can't stress enough how good a player he was, explained the reasons for basically most changes in previous posts, his attack is debatbely a little too high, but i would not go under 88, seriously, do we think ribery is more intelligent than giggs? It's says little, but inspite of giggs lack of defenive ability, he was still successfuly converted into a cm because of his on the ball intelligence, his intelligence is very high, and its what defined him as a great player, yes he had technical skills on top of that, but thats the differce between him and other wingers like quaresma etc, know how.

Name: RYAN GIGGS

Club: ?
Number: ?
Position: SMF*, WF
Nationality: Welsh _wal
Age: 25 (xx-yy-1987)

Foot: L
Side: L

Length: 180
Weight: 70

Attack: 90
Defence: 43
Balance: 78
Stamina: 85
Top Speed: 90
Acceleration: 95
Response: 78
Agility: 90
Dribble Accuracy: 96
Dribble Speed: 97
Short Pass Accuracy: 82
Short Pass Speed: 76
Long Pass Accuracy: 85
Long Pass Speed: 81
Shot Accuracy: 82
Shot Power: 83
Shot Technique: 85
Free Kick Accuracy: 81
Curling: 86
Header: 70
Jump: 78
Technique: 90
Aggression: 92
Mentality: 78
Keeper Skills: 50
Team Work: 74

Injury Tolerance: B
Condition/Fitness: 7
Weak Foot Accuracy: 5
Weak Foot Frequency: 4

S06 - Outside curve
S08 - Slide Tackle
S16 - Roulette Skills
S18 - Turning Skills
P04 - Darting Run
P05 - Mazing Run
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Re: Ryan GIGGS | 1993-1994 | 1998-1999 | 2006-2009

Postby Yazid » 2012 Nov 30, 16:41

Nice set jurgens, would say 95 DA 98 DS would be more preferable for me, but I could get on board with 96 DA, always thought 93 DA was stupidly low.
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Re: Ryan GIGGS | 1993-1994 | 1998-1999 | 2006-2009

Postby reckless » 2012 Dec 04, 12:19

95 DA is too much I think, his close control whilst being very good was never at the level of Ronaldo in Barcelona. I would say 93 is best suited to him, he relied more on twisting and turning than pure close control.
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Re: Ryan GIGGS | 1993-1994 | 1998-1999 | 2006-2009

Postby jurgens » 2012 Dec 04, 12:33

His twists and turns weren't what made him, it was close control with speed on the ball.
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Re: Ryan GIGGS | 1993-1994 | 1998-1999 | 2006-2009

Postby reckless » 2012 Dec 04, 21:07

Yes but his close control was not at the level of someone like David Ginola and when he did have to show more control, then he had to slow down a bit.

Even his famous goal against Arsenal, he fools the first few players with twisting and turning rather than superb close control, it's only at the end he has to use good close control and even then it's not that great.

Ginola's goal against Barnsley showed far better close control.

Giggs and Robben are more 93 DA guys to me.

Konami have always rated Giggs and Robben no more than 92/93 for dribbling and I believe that they are right.
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Re: Ryan Giggs | 1993-1994 | 1998-1999 | 2006-2009

Postby Fantasista » 2015 May 13, 06:38

@jurgens You stressed multiple times (e.g in classic Kaka and Figo thread) that players don't lose da over time, at least not significantly and I absolutely agree with that. Yet here the difference between prime and late set is somewhat contradictory to this thesis. Drop from 96 to 92 is obviously huge. Either in prime set he's overrated or late one is underrated, alternativelly both are true to a lower extent :P. I tend towards first option.

Since I was following him circa post WC 2002 he wasn't showing a godly-like control over the ball. True, he might lost a little bit of an edge even in terms of pure da but IMO it was like in around 2002-03 he was 93da and in 2006-09 92da (which I really consider perfect value for that time). I don't believe he was that much superior in late 90s in that department. Obviosuly over time he became much worse, less effective and spectacular with his dribbling ability but that mostly due to lose of physical attributes which are already highlighted in his sets.
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Re: Ryan Giggs | 1993-1994 | 1998-1999 | 2006-2009

Postby Longwell » 2016 Apr 29, 08:15

Wow, sorry but I follow ManU very closely from 93 onwards and these stats are insanely overrated!
Giggsy was a great player, but he was never quite as 'world class' as this, these 1998-99 stats are way off… where to start..?

Attack: 90 > 86
He was good off the ball, decent positioning and good (but not ‘great’) offensive awareness & vision. 86 would be about right.
Defence: 43 > 47
He was often played as a left midfielder and handled his covering duties fine
Balance:
78 > 82 Needs a raise – he was difficult to knock of the ball, even though he didn’t have great upper body strength

Dribble Accuracy:
96 > 92 He had very good dribble but nowhere near as good as 96
Dribble Speed: 97 > 95
no way was he faster than Robben or B.Laudrup on the ball. But that is still v fast

Long Pass Accuracy:
85 > 83 his crosses weren’t consistently good enough to deserve 85 here

Shot Accuracy:
82 > 80 Didn’t consistently hit the target enough for 82
Shot Power:
83 > 81 Apart from the odd good shot he had decent SP, but not 83
Shot Technique:
85 > 81 Just No. He scored maybe 6-7 goals from tight angles, but that is over a 22 year period… just didn’t connect that well with the ball to get 85

Technique:
90 > 86 again, way too overrated. His touch was good, but nothing elite. Tricky controls in tight spaces were the exception for him , not the rule
“In football, everything is complicated by the presence of the opposite team.”
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Re: Ryan Giggs | 1993-94 | 1996-99 | 2006-09

Postby vinnie » 2017 May 26, 11:24

I think there is a simple misunderstanding that's led to alot of skepticism, skepticism that i shared for a while. I think that prime set rob posted has just been mistakenly labelled, i think we've all noticed that rob posts sets without being specific about the age/weight etc of a player. I think brezza took that set and interpreted the age of 25 as meaning that the set was meant for 1998. I think it makes sense that that set is actually for roughly 1992-1994. I checked with rob in a message I sent him and he confirmed what I suspected, so i'm glad that this mix up can be so easily resolved.

It's hard to believe, but Giggs was pretty clearly at the height of his powers when he was 19-21, specifically the 1993-1994 season. This is not to say this was as good as he ever could have been, but Giggs always had such a selfless attitude on the ball that, coupled with his truly phenomenal speed and deftness on the ball up to the age of 21, as well as his superb defensive efforts- he could have been a winger that really rivaled Robben as the best winger of, possibly all time? But the pinnacle of Giggs' ability was the 1993-1994 season, and when one would have expected him to reach his prime in 1998 at the age of 25, he was a shadow of himself physically, and Giggs' overall technical quality suffered accordingly.

These are the rough notes I compiled below, there isn't a real specificity or format as i don't think a significant point needs to be made against the set; I haven't timestamped all of the best moments I saw as I only noted down the notable displays on my final study of Giggs where i tried to go back through the footage i'd watched to list some actual displays of his ability, but I think this is enough to see clearly the incredible balance, speed, and dribbling quality he had in this period:

Spoiler: show
giggs 1992-1994, prime?

1993-1994:

lwf?

giggs small incisive dribble and pass from rwf:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=10m27s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=12m57s
small incisive dribble from left:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=8m55s

giggs driving dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=3m35s
giggs phenomenal speed on dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=2m12s
giggs phenomenal control on long dribble through middle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=10m26s


giggs mazing run:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=7m24s
giggs pace and small dribbles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=7m23s
giggs small dribble (until 4:58):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlBSntyqmtQ&t=4m33s
giggs superb long dribble through middle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlBSntyqmtQ&t=8m31s
giggs touch and dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96vQQs2RbgY&t=8m20s
giggs run, dribble and shot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96vQQs2RbgY&t=9m43s
giggs touch, dribble shot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2uzAaUef5I&t=6m30s
giggs dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPlFLUbE2Z8&t=4m37s
giggs dribble, goal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxCx1oDEoZs&t=3m17s
giggs incisive dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXuStz-KmIM
giggs pace and shot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxCx1oDEoZs&t=8m39s
giggs run and dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXuStz-KmIM&t=2m02s
giggs small dribble and pass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNKxsvH_74&t=10m06s
giggs run, dribble and shot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNKxsvH_74&t=12m15s
giggs superb dribbling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9OatqUivIA&t=2m23s
giggs good dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7coOPyeQJ8&t=9m46s
giggs dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts73tJszFX8&t=11m49s
giggs small dribble at pace:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czyb2bsajHY&t=0m34s
giggs small dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsuUnWN28TQ&t=5m16s
giggs small dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFE5CyG-ar8&t=2m36s
giggs dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCTzwrXyGtw&t=2m36s
giggs dribble, goal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCTzwrXyGtw&t=5m36s
giggs good dribble to win foul on counter: (pretty sure this has been posted before though)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzZBlxugCwQ&t=1m14s
giggs pace on ballfor cross: (not sure if posted already)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzJ_TGuuMZwY&t=10m09s
giggs small give and go burst:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzJ_TGuuMZw&t=7m40s

giggs pace"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxCx1oDEoZs&t=1m00s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbsGybTPRoQ&t=8m06s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXuStz-KmIM&t=0m53s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9OatqUivIA&t=4m18s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9OatqUivIA&t=5m08s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9OatqUivIA&t=2m46s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7coOPyeQJ8&t=1m12s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OngUf8Fn4NQ&t=2m11s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXPSPWrhbeE&t=10m07s (subbed on)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts73tJszFX8&t=6m41s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsuUnWN28TQ&t=4m07s (dummy run)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q14GjghAkwk&t=5m18s

acc?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OngUf8Fn4NQ&t=7m00s

giggs doesn't dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=5m07s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibTgrnh7AHc&t=4m46s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNKxsvH_74v&t=2m20s (huge space on flank)

giggs sa?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbsGybTPRoQ&t=4m43s

giggs blind pass (unintended?):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=9m27s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibTgrnh7AHc&t=3m39s

giggs header:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=3m36s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=5m43s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlBSntyqmtQ&t=1m38s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OngUf8Fn4NQ&t=10m22s



giggs 1992:

rwf?


giggs small failed dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=15m33s
giggs dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=16m23s
giggs small retention dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=19m20s
giggs small incisive dribble and shot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=19m48s
giggs small dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=32m50s
giggs long dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=33m54s
giggs touch and sloppy dribble through middle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=1h04m58s
giggs rare risky dribble with space (very unusual):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=1h09m50s
giggs pace and outside pass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=1h10m39s
giggs sombrero with burst:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=1h10m55s
giggs acceleration, dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=1h30m48s
giggs dribble, acceleration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=1h31m31s
giggs great driving dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eSnvArIuXw&t=6m00s
giggs good dribble on left flank:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrqFWWKpYLQ&t=1m30s
giggs breakaway, shot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrqFWWKpYLQ&t=4m48s
giggs small dribble, give and go burst:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIkmr9agnLI&t=1m55s
giggs dribble, cross:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIkmr9agnLI&t=4m02s
giggs cut in dribble with pace:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e618fNtTqnQ&t=1m21s
giggs small counter dribble down midde:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e618fNtTqnQ&t=2m20s
giggs small dribble, cross:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e618fNtTqnQ&t=17m52s
giggs pace, small dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqI0G0IuFzo&t=0m02s
giggs medium pace on counter dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj0PLca2liQ&t=13m49s
giggs incisive dribble and underhitpass for throughball:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31JPWJh3qJM&t=2m00s
giggs incisive dribble and shot (robben style):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbTSwauVhXw&t=0m40s


genius 1-touch pass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClGrPGpnnv8&t=1m34s
giggs incisive dribble and shot (robben style):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOcQ4yYBGrQ&t=2m36s
brilliant 1-touch pass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOcQ4yYBGrQ&t=8m00s
famous dribble goal vs spurs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jZkcpU4MBw&t=0m40s


giggs regularly plays inverted rwf before cantona; after cantona arrives, seldom, and eventually almost never


pace:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e618fNtTqnQ&t=2m52s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e618fNtTqnQ&t=19m19s ince sps as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqI0G0IuFzo&t=2m32s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iBBr4pQwPQ&t=3m40s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAvLvhBp_D8&t=3m33s

acc?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqI0G0IuFzo&t=4m20s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj0PLca2liQ&t=10m49s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iBBr4pQwPQ&t=4m08s + pace on ball

sa?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClGrPGpnnv8&t=3m24s
marking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iBBr4pQwPQ&t=8m30s





I've come across the description Ferguson made of Giggs comparing him to a greyhound, and there really is no more vivid a description or comparison of imagery that is more fitting. At times he glides over the ground in a hunched way where it is hard to imagine a more natural or fluid dribbler at speed then GIggs. With his sometimes incredibly small touches, It can be imagined without being absurd, that a Giggs without hamstring issues could possibly have become something like a 98 DA 98 DS. This vision was never realized, but the clear level he showed was at minimum a high 95 DA, or weak 96 DA. His DS in my view was no less then 96, but though he showed phenomenal potential, i don't think he yet proved he was consistently a 97 DS that could just fly around defenders or through midfield lines quite like how Robben proved he could. I find Giggs' dribbling style, and overall demeanor extremely comparable to Messi, which is a bit strange considering the differences in their physiques.
But if we just look at the fluidity and touches Giggs puts on his dribbles, Giggs has a frequency and balance at speed comparable to a young Messi. I don't think he reaches the level of a young Messi or any Messi past 18, he's just comparable- but i do think he surpasses the peak of Robben's dribbling if we specifically discuss the nimbleness and deftness of his touches he can put on the ball while running near full pace.


I've gone as far as the 20's pages for videos when searching for matches, checking if there's anything i haven't seen yet; i've watched every match highlight you can find for the 1992/93 season, and 1993/1994, and all the full matches (i'm not sure how many this is, about 9?). To comment about Giggs' position, the only season Giggs really ever played as an inverted right winger as a left footed player, with some level of freedom or daring to cut inside and attack the centrebacks with incisive dribbles was 1992/93 prior to Cantona's transfer from Leeds in the Winter transfer window. After Cantona's arrival (with Kanchelski surrendering the 7 and changing to number 14), Giggs did play a few more games as a RWF, but eventually it seems clear a decision was made by Ferguson to shift Giggs to the left, and bring Kanchelski to the right, with Cantona playing with Hughes upfront. Giggs never really played as an inverted winger after the end of the 92/93 season- he showed the talent to play in this position, and the potential is there to develop into one of the greatest wingers ever as an inverted winger, but ultimately played too little there to deserve being called a right winger. At best I think Giggs was in this period a left winger that could play both sides. In this period, even as a left winger he still played with a phenomenal daring, speed, and dribbling brilliance in United's famous 1993/94 team. And what a team that was.


It's really only disappointing that there aren't more 1993/94 matches to watch online. I don't enjoy watching alot of types of football matches; slow matches with not much urgency, too much exaggeration against contact or theater, or plodding tactical stalemates. The emphasis and purpose has been studying interesting players with unique skillsets and talents when i go to watch football matches. Often I watch matches despite the meandering pace and lack of daring in alot of football matches, the better to understand or study a particular player, and since the new function of quick fastforward with the right arrow key has been added to most videoplayers, watching matches solely for specific players is less time consuming for me.

There's no need to make watching Fergie's United in 1993/1994 easy on the eyes though, as that 1993/94 united team was really something excellent. A team with not one coward in the starting lineup, with an extreme level of workrate, tenacity, teamwork, tactical commitment, but a resolve for boldness. There were defensively expert fullbacks in Dennis Irwin and Paul Parker (a really excellent defender inspite of his limited football skill), classic defenders that were no world beaters, but a very very solid pairing of pace over distance in Pallister, and a strong tackler and aerial presence in Bruce. Ince had a tremendous workrate while being a bit sloppy in his positioning- though still highly functional, and his very good physical quality, combined with an excellent slide tackle, and surprisingly good ability to hit volleys (albeit with not too much placement) made him a commanding midfielder aside a solid, reserved, and dependable young Roy Keane. Kanchelski was the winger with flair- possessing a powerful frame, and a galloping speed over distance who gave a bit of dynamism in his direct dribbles and willingness to create chances without his teammates while not ignoring his defensive duties- not the technical genius Giggs was, but a considerable force nonetheless. Cantona was a genius- everything that should be said to describe his ability has already been described well by rob. If anyone asks what an orange short passer from a striker that drops deep to playmake looks like, it's Cantona; Zlatan does not compare. Hughes is brilliant as well, every inch the 86 SPA he already has, and before Cantona's arrival a superb playmaker in his own right, and in my opinion, possessing an underrated shot technique even at the 95 he already has, and possibly underrated in his touch as well. A bull despite his height who fought for space, was good in the air, and would surprise you with how good of a dribbler he is at least once a match. Schmeichel was the ideal maniac last line of defence: imposing, surprisingly quick, a goalkeeper of quality that doesn't need to be described. Though i did note that Schmeichel appeared more mortal then I anticipated, and had his fair share of mistakes, or soft goals- he was none the less a big game player that made key saves in key moments, and had the strength of character to instill discipline in the entire team.

It was a team that played determined and unrelenting defence, with brutal and technically challenging offence. It was a team of champions, and it's hard to imagine it achieving what it did without Giggs specifically. If Giggs demanded that the team be built around his prodigious talent, he probably would have been named the best player of the season rather then Cantona, and that foundation having been laid then well on the road to becoming a consistent world player of the year candidate- such was his level of talent. Yet Giggs was willing to defer to the domineering style of Cantona, where play was centered around Cantona's playmaking. Instead of playing as a winger or playmaker whom the team could easily have been built around to support for his fantastic speed, dribbling, passing, and productive (though potentially developable to a much higher level) shooting ability, playing in a set up meant to maximize his talent, Giggs dutifully made dummy runs, used his pace to make give and go's to reach pockets where his long passing skill was the key to provide for his teammates by focusing on crosses to Hughes and Cantona, while proving a dependable covering tandem with Irwin, marking his opposing winger, and picking up runs behind Irwin when Irwin needed to move out of the defensive block to sustain defensive pressure.

United had a selfless prodigy on their left flank that didn't complain about a lack of glory, did the equivalent of a fullbacks' work in his tracking back and covering for Irwin. He was a technically excellent passer with a fantastic curve on his crosses; Giggs' meaningfully focused on using his passes- but was capable at any moment of extraordinary runs with the ball, and had a sharp sense for cutting into the box at the right moment following crosses and bagging well struck goals with his very very good shot technique, and good for a winger heading skills.


A couple of things derailed GIggs: namely his difficulty tolerating a busy season schedule with domestic and european fronts scheduled together, which subsequently lead to his hamstring injuries. I researched his injury history, and outside of sometime around 1995, he never had any serious injuries. However as Giggs said it himself, he couldn't play more then 2 games in a week without picking up an injury of some sort- specifically his chronic hamstring problems. Arguably it could be reasoned Giggs never could have reached any hypothetical peak of all the abilities and potential he showed by 1994, since, if you can't even play 2 games a week, how could you really make a significant impact on a team like united 1992 onwards that was trying for league, league cup, and european success every season? Unarguably anyways, i find that giggs' acceleration and agility were slowly ebbed away year on year after sometime roughly into late 1994 or 1995, and he was meaningfully hampered by 1997/1998. I'll argue as well that Giggs always had a tendency to cede to his teammates more then was warranted, to the detriment of the flow and rhythm of the game, and to the disregard of his own ability. Even at his clear irrefutable best, he still didn't quite dribble as much as he could have, and sometimes, should have. This very well could have been tactically instructed, but the freedom Kanchelski, Poborsky, and subsequently Ronaldo and Nani enjoyed under Ferguson, don't credit that theory very well. I'll also argue that Giggs had a strange way of wanting to create space for himself which was not very efficient, and seldom very successful. I'll argue on those points further, but they are not significant adjustments that i think are needed, just small adjustments.

Now regarding the 1998 era set.

I have seen those two particular examples of phenomenal dribbling control posted by Rob in this thread before, and i think everyone can agree that those are dribbling runs of indisputable balance, attention to close touches on the ball, and control at high speeds. It was to see more of that level of dribbling that years ago I went to watch some United matches in the roughly 1996-1999 era for enjoyment, as players with that kind of technical ability at speed are really a marvel to study. But I was taken aback by what i saw: how timid and unaggressive he was on the ball- his lack of agility, his startling lack of acceleration, a more then occasional sloppiness that marred an obvious class when Giggs attempted turns or dribbles, and above all: a near refusal, it seemed, to meaningfully take on defenders with the ball at his feet.

What i saw really baffled me, here's a guy that seemingly, is rightfully rated as one of the best dribbling wingers ever? Yet he's averaging something like 2 dribbles per game, at a less then 35% success rate? Those ratios are my own estimates, and i think they're actually generous if at all exaggerated. He really was that reluctant to dribble, and seemingly justifiably as his success rate when he did dribble was shockingly low. I spent a long time watching full matches or match highlights (the 12-25 minute forms being posted on youtube) and this impression just became more and more affirmed. There were exceptions, but not nearly enough, and not nearly convincing enough exceptions at that. I'm not sure i'd been this confused when trying to evaluate a player before, because the examples you can find of the very best of Giggs truly are phenomenal, without a question red dribbling accuracy and speed, debatably high reds. Yet there are very few dribbling compilations of Giggs, and of what there is, what's shown is mostly his later years after 2005 or so- not overly impressive stuff, and obviously not Giggs at his best: wherever that was.

I made my own set eventually about a year or two ago just to put down the impression of what i saw consistently Giggs perform like in the full matches, and kept trying to figure out what Giggs was really like in his prime.
Eventually I was just about convinced there was something not quite right about the supposed prime set of Giggs, and i was ready to question the set, when i considered watching the very young performances of Giggs, so I watched some 1993-94 highlights of united, just to see how he played before his supposed prime.
It's amazing, but everything made sense within minutes: the way he moved, his incredible balance, his superb acceleration and aggression in attacking the box, and a far superior daring in dribbling at fullbacks; it was without needing to compare, just about exactly what you would expect looking at the "1998" set. Of course it was sometime after this that i also realized those magnificent dribbling runs that had been referenced before were all 1994 or earlier.



By 1998/99 Giggs really had already changed his playstyle in a significant way. From somewhere around 1996 onwards, the way he could be described as playing could be "2nd fullback stack". Instead of attacking the defence on the ball and committing to runs in the box like he had shown in 1992-1994, the majority of the time GIggs committed to marking the opposition winger, covering overlapping runs, and forming a significant leg of the midfield block when defending.
It's in this period that I think alot of the criticisms of Fantasista and others arise of him, and regarding this period, i find most of what's been said about the set representing 1998 Giggs to be accurate criticism. It can be really shocking watching Giggs 1997/98 upwards if you're expecting the set as it depicts him for 1998, just as I was shocked at the difference between the set given and what I saw. The big difference between his highest level in 1994 is Giggs' drop in aggression. In 1994 Giggs would dribble fullbacks, make dummy runs on counters, and charge into the box trying to win headers or shots on goal. By 1998, it seems Giggs made a dramatic change in his playstyle to account for his ebbing pace and agility- it's evident he still has a world level class in his cuts, and in the fluidity of his dribbles at pace, but while some semblance of his speed on the ball remained, his acceleration had really suffered, as had his agility, and though his dribbling skill was still superb, it was no longer near the level he once held. Accordingly, Giggs nearly cut dribbling out of his game plan entirely. I will firmly hold that he doesn't deserve either the dribbling star, in this period and very arguably here, the possession star. Giggs in this period automatically cedes offensive movements to other players, he will pass first, and dribble often at the last resort, with a huge amount of trepidation as well. Really, he's an Early Cross and Pin point pass style player at this stage. It's a smart, safe way of playing which encourages touches and chances going to the strikers, while guarding his hamstring. As well, the lack of explosive drives towards the goal with the ball were made up with ever increasing defensive prowess and sturdiness. It seemed that Giggs would come alive whenever he became defensively needed, closing down on open players, tracking back with great pace on overlapping runs against Irwin, and in the midfield spaces left by Butt or Keane or Scholes. Giggs' passing did not actually improve much in this period, which is quite surprising; Giggs short passing is better then his peak level, but his long passing is unimproved, and identical to his peak level. Giggs touch and control suffered too it seemed, he slightly lacked a natural ease in taking down passes he wouldn't have thought about before, but which troubled him now.

I kept a notepad of notes of whatever I noticed starting from a few weeks ago, like I said, I only started keeping notes after the fourth or fifth time i had tried to study Giggs when i was pretty sure about a few things, so there are some moments in my mind that aren't in here, but that i couldn't re-find:

Spoiler: show
giggs lack of presituation analysis +action planning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_WXCN17tRw&t=1h12m15s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_WXCN17tRw&t=1h14m03s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_WXCN17tRw&t=1h27m35s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=39m02s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=40m04s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=45m29s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=59m10s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=1h01m06s (huge space in middle to drive a counter with dribble)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=1h14m30s

dribbling awareness and slight lack of tight control cutting inside:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNT8XPGC5Tg&t=7m06s

giggs not dribbling with spacce:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNT8XPGC5Tg&t=19m0s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU7dyb5ESCM&t=35m42s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLj_6F4DlyM&t=18m35s (94/95)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLj_6F4DlyM&t=26m29s (94/95)

surprisingly low dribbling % (below 35%?)
and low dribbling tendency (especially towards defence)

giggs typical dribbling tendency (burst around with pace and fantastic balance,
loses ball cutting back outside with bad timing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=43m23s

surprisingly bad touch to begin dribble with space on counter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=48m15s

good touches in small dribble cutting inside (loses ball):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=55m05s

note: vastly outperformed in dribbling by dean saunders vs romania wcq (85 da 84 agi)


giggs burst on dribble 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=14m43s

giggs touch and pace 94/95: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLj_6F4DlyM&t=14m29s

giggs small dribble and pass 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=26m26s

giggs nice long pass 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=31m43s

romario acceleration 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=32m38s

romario acceleration 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=46m30s

giggs acceleration and failed dribble 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15umy ... s&t=02m18s

giggs acceleration to loose ball 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15umy ... ls&t=4m51s

giggs dribble in space (does not attack defence with space) 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=42m40s

giggs dribble 94/95:http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2zo_barcelona-man-utd-1994-95-1st-half_animals&t=43m38s

giggs pass instead of dribbling with pocket of space: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15umy ... s&t=21m15s

giggs pace on ball: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU7dyb5ESCM&t=19m33s

giggs pace 94/95 (with stumble): http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=20m39s

giggs pace 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15umy ... s&t=12m16s

giggs making space + pass (failed weight): http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15umy ... s&t=23m17s

giggs pace 94/95: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXjD39mFdAo&t=4m57s

giggs long dribbling run 94/95: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXjD39mFdAo&t=14m19s

giggs burst on dribble: 94/95: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXjD39mFdAo&t=19m22s

giggs pace 95/96:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T72HKNAdI_o&t=17m26s (much slower?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T72HKNAdI_o&t=20m16s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T72HKNAdI_o&t=25m57s (vs gilliespie)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T72HKNAdI_o&t=30m13s (small glimpse of acc)

giggs pace 96/97: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47mdtg&t=29m57s

giggs dribble 96/97:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47mdtg&t=1h02m59s
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47mdtg&t=1h08m18s

giggs dribble and small touches in pressure 96/97: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47m42 ... t=1h24m04s
failed dribble at 1:24:13? takes touch with right foot and kicks ahead instead of
cutting in and using supposed immense speed on ball, with big gap in defence ahead.

surely giggs has to head this? 96/97: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47m42 ... t=1h38m55s

fantastic awareness for pass 96/97: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48b33 ... s&t=18m53s

giggs already playing cmf role in cl at 23. myth of adapting play style? always smf/cmf rather then wf.

giggs chooses not to dribble ahead with speed wiith space infront of him, instead cuts inside and plays passes (typical behaviour):
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48b33 ... s&t=21m49s

giggs dribbling 96/97:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48b33 ... s&t=34m59s
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48b33 ... s&t=36m50s

giggs pace 96/97: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48b33 ... s&t=46m58s

giggs doesn't dribble incisively for shot when down 1 with huge space:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47mdtg&t=1h26m32s

giggs covering:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47mdtg&t=1h03m49s
giggs tracking overlap run:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47mdtg&t=1h13m35s

1998/99
giggs acceleration and covering: (covers all game to fantastic effect with irwin):
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t&t=21m48s
giggs aceleration (quite good here):
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t&t=24m10s
giggs small incisivev dribble from lmf:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t&t=30m02s
giggs covering and defending:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t&t=44m58s
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t*t=47m12s
giggs underhit pass 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=15m31s
giggs lack of aggression; counter attack and nowhere near recovering overhit cross- counter takes 9 seconds from the release pass to when beckham's cross is in the box:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t&t=56m31s
giggs lack of aggression again:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t&t=58m10s

this lack of aggression nearly unanimous of giggs post 1995/96
giggs covering and defending:
giggs 1-touch passes:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t=1h16m26s

giggs dribble speed in space(counter):
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t=1h28m28s

giggs more often then expected runs into teammates? an observation of an impression:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t=1h11m17s

giggs speed on ball vs djorkaeff:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=3m25s
giggs fantastic turn:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl*5m43s
giggs acceleration vs zanetti:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=8m10s
giggs doesn't dribble, chooses strange pass that fails:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=11m16s
giggs speed:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=12m47s
giggs dribble vs zanetti:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=18m17s
gigggs challenges zanetti, but doesnt dribble:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=22m54s
giggs dribbles-tackled:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=29m32s
giggs dribbles with speed against zanetti with space, stumbles:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=32m34s
giggs acceleration (contrast with irwin):
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=41m20s
giggs challenges but does not dribble zanetti:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=47m22s
giggs speed, dribble and shot with right foot:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=55m19s
giggs good mazing dribble:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=1h00m47s
giggs acc?:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=1h19m58s
giggs sa?:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=1h20m20s
giggs top speed vs zanetti:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=1h29m55s
giggs speed on dribble counter (covered by zanetti):
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=1h31m43s


giggs dribble:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=8m00s
giggs small dribbles in middle on counter:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=11m45s
giggs small dribble, give and go, burst:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=21m12s
giggs small cut in dribble from lwf:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=23m30s
giggs small dribble, give and go speed:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=25m20s
giggs cut and acceleration:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=31m35s
giggs pace, speed on the ball, and cut in pass:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=31m20s
giggs strange decision:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=43m58s
giggs turn, strange pass:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=46m09s
giggs dribble for blocked cross:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=48m58s
giggs turn under pressure too slow?:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=54m54s
giggs good dribble, not enough acceleration:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=55m39s
giggs lack of acceleration to get to cross:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=1h08m56s
giggs covering:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=1h14m52s



The type of set I think Giggs could have for 1996 to 1999 would look something like this:


Attack: 88
Defence: 51
Balance: 78
Stamina: 85
Top Speed: 90
Acceleration: 87
Response: 80
Agility: 84
Dribble Accuracy: 93
Dribble Speed: 92
Short Pass Accuracy: 82
Short Pass Speed: 76
Long Pass Accuracy: 85
Long Pass Speed: 79
Shot Accuracy: 81
Shot Power: 82
Shot Technique: 85
Free Kick Accuracy: 81
Curling: 87
Header: 72
Jump: 78
Technique: 88
Aggression: 81
Mentality: 78
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 82

Condition/Fitness: 4
Weak Foot Accuracy: 5
Weak Foot Frequency: 4

I'm much more comfortable with the ideas i have about the 1994 Giggs compared to a 1998 set, or anything between that. In the period between 1994 to 1996, for a small time Giggs was around a 94 DA with a 95 DS, still capable of great dribble control, with agility something like an 87, and acceleration arguably around 90- but his style was not really defined in this period in my view, he was transitioning to a different role, but did not know how to dribble in a way to suit the role he needed to adapt to given his injury problems, and lesser effectiveness in his previous dribbling style.
The key attributes i'm deliberating over are his attack, agility, acceleration, and teamwork. He contributed less to danger overall, but it seemed like his decision making was less improvised, a bit more effective, and a bit better with analyzing situations, and playing passes with a preset strategy or next move. I started at around 85 attack, but am open now to as much as 88.
His agility is really troubling, this to me is the biggest limiting factor that forced his style change, as he has a really hard time cutting compared to before, and if you watch his dribbling, it's much stiffer and less fluid then previously. As Fantasista noted, even his great Arsenal goal was not really some display of great agility, just deft touches.
About his acceleration- i think most of the time 85 acceleration is really enough, but he is capable of enough bursts that make as high as 87 not an unreasonable value, but this would be the limit from what i've seen. Regarding his teamwork value, it is quite high, and he still had a bit of a habit from his attacking winger days of drifting more then you would be comfortable for a player of such a value like 82 for a SMF, but he had by this period such an excellent workrate, understanding, and damn near interchangeable covering for Irwin that i feel he deserves this value to show that. He is at this period the ultimate example of a covering side midfielder- I've not seen it done as well as Giggs does it at this period, while still having some real midfield function.
I think this DA and DS is enough to perform those really excellent dribbles he was still very much capable of, but still limiting him to what he was, a clear level below his 1994 level.
I'm not sure how much his defence could reach, but he was still not a really good tackler or disposseser, he just had a perfect sense of where he needed to be positionally in the midfield block, and a good ability to put himself in front of the attacker and jockey him away. His slide tackling was better, but not too prominent.
I wouldn't mind mentality going to 80? those are the significant aspects of the set. Other then that he needs covering, probably marking, slidetackling removing dribbling, pretty sure but still not certain of removing possession, 1-touch pass, early cross, and pinpoint pass.

As I said earlier about peak Giggs, I think the current set is pretty much spot on for the range of his ability at that moment, but i think he was a bit sloppier and occaisonally mixed up, while being responsively sharper. I'd see him like:


Attack: 87
Defence: 46
Balance: 76
Stamina: 86
Top Speed: 88
Acceleration: 93
Response: 81
Agility: 90
Dribble Accuracy: 96
Dribble Speed: 96
Short Pass Accuracy: 80
Short Pass Speed: 74
Long Pass Accuracy: 85
Long Pass Speed: 79
Shot Accuracy: 81
Shot Power: 82
Shot Technique: 85
Free Kick Accuracy: 81
Curling: 87
Header: 75
Jump: 78
Technique: 90
Aggression: 92
Mentality: 75
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 76

Condition/Fitness: 5
Weak Foot Accuracy: 5
Weak Foot Frequency: 4


I am open to that 1998 set just being relabelled 1994 and it would still be fine, but in my view he had a little more power for a slightly higher top speed after 1995, despite losing a huge amount of his acceleration. He's not possibly any bit lower then 88, but i think 88 is the right value for what he consistently reached for his top speed, he did on occasion hit something like 90 TS, but what i saw was that he was consistently an 88 TS for whatever reason. After 1995 I think he's clearly a bit better at his top speed, and consistently so.
I think he wasn't quite so refined an attacker to deserve 90 attack, i think what can be seen as intelligent selflessness is actually more of the gravity of his natural inclination- the kind of play he trends towards: passing to teammates. I've noticed that even at his most aggressive form he sometimes wrongly deferred to his teammates to the detriment of his teams best chance to score a goal in certain situations: himself. Sometimes the self focused play is the most dangerous one, and it's a type of play Giggs is just a bit too hesitant to embrace in my opinion. I think when the comparison to Ribery was made earlier, there is truth that what Giggs produces is of higher quality and pure technical threat then anything Ribery is capable of, but Ribery at his peak to me felt more refined in the sense that he knew the best ways to hurt a team through his skillset, and he used those methods, whether they were self focused, or a pass. Whether this is really the producable effect through attack is still debatable, but it's consistent to how i differentiate players, and consistent to how i regard attack- not only being selfless at the right time, but also selfish at the right times. With a 92 aggression, i think he will still attack at the high rate he would at this form, but with a bit of a lack of that higher level pre-situational awareness and readiness to execute without hesitation in certain situations.

Regarding Acceleration, i have to be honest, i'm harsher and harsher on both agility and acceleration in general the more players i watch, but to show a contrast through some examples of someone else, I was watching the barcelona match in 1994-1995, and there were two clear moments of Romario acceleration that i don't think even peak Giggs could match in anything i saw of him. They're pasted somewhere in that mess of the 1995+ era notes, but here they are:

romario acceleration 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=32m38s

romario acceleration 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=46m30s

A note: those dailymotion links don't actually link you to the time, as i tested them and dailymotion doesn't have this function like youtube does (it seems), but if you open the link this way, the time will still be there in the url bar when you're on the video page, so that you can just skip to the right time with the relevant time stated in the link.

Even if i'm pretty harsh on acceleration, to me that is a pretty damn clear example of red acceleration, a 95, and i haven't seen something consistently near that level that Romario shows from Giggs even at his peak- 93 acceleration is still a superb value especially with such a big top speed value, and his dribble speed as well. I'm open, but prefer this kind of value

If you noticed i brought up his shot accuracy once or twice in the notes, it's because i'm just a bit skeptical about his shot accuracy in general, but this is a pretty small detail that i'm not very convinced in.


In the end Giggs seems a player that could have been something greater in a different style of football, say Spain, or with a coach having an emphasis on ball possession and technical dribbling attacks like what is emphasized today. With Giggs' difficulty acclimatizing to high workload seasons, and his innate instinct to pass first instead of attack with the ball first that has been present since his first united game, perhaps Giggs never really would have become anything other then what he became.
It is to Giggs' credit the way he had always served his teams and adapted to the other stars of United over two decades though, and even as i speak about his 1998 form as being something lesser then what he was before, really in near all of the champions league matches i saw of Manchester United, Giggs performed, and he often seemed to come alive, dribbling with a bit of a instinct for danger, an urgency and a sense for the occasion where he seemed to feel the right things to do. He was very much still a superb player even being less what he could have been, and over twenty years, proved himself an invaluable part of many great teams of history.


If you look at the run of league titles and domestic success from 1992 to Giggs retirement in 2014, it's a domestic dominance that no other team in any of the top leagues is really close at all at matching, not Barcelona, not Bayern, not Real Madrid, not Juventus, not Paris Saint-Germain, or Lyon, not any of Porto or Benfica. It's a domestic run of success that stands tall in history, and while it could not have happened without Alex Ferguson, I very much doubt it could have happened without Giggs either.
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Re: Ryan Giggs | 1993-94 | 1996-99 | 2006-09

Postby Korinov » 2017 May 26, 19:41

Hey, great post, nice to read from you again.

Besides his physical problems, do you think the changes suffered by football in the 90s could have also an influence over Giggs' playstyle evolution. What I mean is, I've watched a decent (not huge, but decent) amount of football footage from the late 80s and early 90s, and I've covered some teams from the late 90s as well. This is just a very adventurous statement as I don't really have enough proper evidence to back it up, but overall I got the feeling... late 80s/early 90s football was quite 'wild' if compared to what was going on in the late 90s. By "wild" I mean less tactical stiffness, more improvisation, feeling pretty amateurish at times even in top level matches (in comparison to nowadays football). Team tactics looked pretty simple, most teams would (loosely) play upon a plan but in the end creative players seemed to have more freedom. There are quite a bunch of examples of physically "weak", nimble and technically gifted players that either thrived or showed great potential during the late 80s/early 90s, and who simply couldn't cope with the increasing physicality and importance of tactics in the game from the mid 90s onwards (way more efficient training methods, schedules and equipment, plus also the popularization of EPO and several kinds of steroids).

My question is, could the evolution underwent by football in the 90s have also influenced Giggs' playstyle changes, fitness issues aside?

Edit: made some changes to the main paragraph, was short on time and had left some ideas a bit undeveloped.
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Re: Ryan Giggs | 1993-94 | 1996-99 | 2006-09

Postby vinnie » 2017 May 31, 01:15

i checked my Giggs' post's links the other day and noticed there were about 8 or so links right at the beginning that were wrong- i must have forgot to copy links from the right videos, and i just pasted the same link with times from different videos added to the url when i was making my notes on my notepad file (of a video where i had no examples i wanted to share anyways which is bizarre), and these were key examples to support my assertion about giggs' dribbling- yet no one pointed it out or challenged me on it? i found the right links for about 6 of them so far, and luckily i found the videos of the key dribbles.

if anyone has doubts about Giggs' dribbling, you don't need to watch anything else, just watch these few examples:

correcting wrong links- the infamous yfVr



giggs small incisive dribble and pass from rwf:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUpKcyCfOJI&t=12m57s -replace yfvr
small incisive dribble from left:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUpKcyCfOJI&t=8m55s -replace yfvr




lwf?

giggs small incisive dribble and pass from rwf:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvy3qQj ... s&t=10m27s

these two examples below are must see, and you won't find them in any dribbling compilations

giggs phenomenal speed on dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOY2CNDeI6U&t=2m12s -replace yfvr
giggs phenomenal control on long dribble through middle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOY2CNDeI6U&t=10m26s -replace yfvr

still haven't found the right videos for the examples below. Any video with the video link "yfVr10E8ny0" is useless: that video is only 3 minutes long and has no examples of any of the united player from 1992-1994 that i want to share. I'll replace them if i ever find the right videos again- but it already took long enough to find the important examples above.

giggs driving dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=3m35s
giggs mazing run:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=7m24s
giggs pace and small dribbles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=7m23s



i try to condense my posts about players to what is essential, because i often think the posts are just too damn long for someone to try to respond to, or even read.
i already try to minimize how much should be written, but the difficulty is that when i wait to post until i'm pretty sure on some aspects or ideas, i have quite a few things that i've noticed or want to point out in the detail it deserves- which is hard to do in only a paragraph or two- but i just hope it's not too much? because what i intend is just to be thorough, so that at least in the future if we learn something new, or someone points out something valid with unseen footage, at least the reasoning behind a change or set at a certain time is clearly explained, and can be directly argued against at once. it's definitely not something that is necessary for everyone to emulate though, and i find great value in the casual comments people share of their honest impressions of players.

take kane- i could spend a couple more weeks or monthes analyzing him and post some specific charts and examples from vs vids, but phil and a couple of others having been saying for monthes and monthes the same thing about how brilliant they think his shooting is, so all i needed to say is that i share the same impression, as phil's an unquestionably reliable mod here.
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Re: Ryan Giggs | 1993-94 | 1996-99 | 2006-09

Postby jurgens » 2017 May 31, 01:39

yet no one pointed it out or challenged me on it?


I thought it was a youtube bug as the videos we're changing when I clicked the link, never seen that before, so I didn't bring it up, assumed it was just on youtubes end and would fix itself.


actually its still happening to me, not sure whats going on, I think you must have the wrong times or something for some vids?
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Re: Ryan Giggs | 1993-94 | 1996-99 | 2006-09

Postby Oriello » 2017 May 31, 01:51

I read the entire post, but balked at the video links when I clicked on the spoiler, I clicked on a 2 or 3, but I had neither the time nor energy for it - I probably would have come back a few weeks/months later and thought the links got messed up with time. :mrgreen:

Its true that at first glance the length of your recent posts is a bit overwhelming, but really anyone actually interested can break it up into chunks that don't have to be read in one sitting. You really wrote a lot of good info and judgments, there is no need to feel guilty. It is also understandable as you have not been posting regularly that these comments/ideas just built up.

I think that with classic players, writing a bit more is acceptable as not everyone has seen them nor do they have the recency of a Kane in peoples memories - memories which are notoriously unreliable re-imaginings of events.
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Re: Ryan Giggs | 1993-94 | 1996-99 | 2006-09

Postby Yazid » 2017 May 31, 06:56

vinnie wrote:I think there is a simple misunderstanding that's led to alot of skepticism, skepticism that i shared for a while. I think that prime set rob posted has just been mistakenly labelled, i think we've all noticed that rob posts sets without being specific about the age/weight etc of a player. I think brezza took that set and interpreted the age of 25 as meaning that the set was meant for 1998. I think it makes sense that that set is actually for roughly 1992-1994. I checked with rob in a message I sent him and he confirmed what I suspected, so i'm glad that this mix up can be so easily resolved.

It's hard to believe, but Giggs was pretty clearly at the height of his powers when he was 19-21, specifically the 1993-1994 season. This is not to say this was as good as he ever could have been, but Giggs always had such a selfless attitude on the ball that, coupled with his truly phenomenal speed and deftness on the ball up to the age of 21, as well as his superb defensive efforts- he could have been a winger that really rivaled Robben as the best winger of, possibly all time? But the pinnacle of Giggs' ability was the 1993-1994 season, and when one would have expected him to reach his prime in 1998 at the age of 25, he was a shadow of himself physically, and Giggs' overall technical quality suffered accordingly.

These are the rough notes I compiled below, there isn't a real specificity or format as i don't think a significant point needs to be made against the set; I haven't timestamped all of the best moments I saw as I only noted down the notable displays on my final study of Giggs where i tried to go back through the footage i'd watched to list some actual displays of his ability, but I think this is enough to see clearly the incredible balance, speed, and dribbling quality he had in this period:

Spoiler: show
giggs 1992-1994, prime?

1993-1994:

lwf?

giggs small incisive dribble and pass from rwf:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=10m27s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=12m57s
small incisive dribble from left:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=8m55s

giggs driving dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=3m35s
giggs phenomenal speed on dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=2m12s
giggs phenomenal control on long dribble through middle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=10m26s


giggs mazing run:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=7m24s
giggs pace and small dribbles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=7m23s
giggs small dribble (until 4:58):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlBSntyqmtQ&t=4m33s
giggs superb long dribble through middle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlBSntyqmtQ&t=8m31s
giggs touch and dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96vQQs2RbgY&t=8m20s
giggs run, dribble and shot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96vQQs2RbgY&t=9m43s
giggs touch, dribble shot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2uzAaUef5I&t=6m30s
giggs dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPlFLUbE2Z8&t=4m37s
giggs dribble, goal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxCx1oDEoZs&t=3m17s
giggs incisive dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXuStz-KmIM
giggs pace and shot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxCx1oDEoZs&t=8m39s
giggs run and dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXuStz-KmIM&t=2m02s
giggs small dribble and pass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNKxsvH_74&t=10m06s
giggs run, dribble and shot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNKxsvH_74&t=12m15s
giggs superb dribbling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9OatqUivIA&t=2m23s
giggs good dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7coOPyeQJ8&t=9m46s
giggs dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts73tJszFX8&t=11m49s
giggs small dribble at pace:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czyb2bsajHY&t=0m34s
giggs small dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsuUnWN28TQ&t=5m16s
giggs small dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFE5CyG-ar8&t=2m36s
giggs dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCTzwrXyGtw&t=2m36s
giggs dribble, goal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCTzwrXyGtw&t=5m36s
giggs good dribble to win foul on counter: (pretty sure this has been posted before though)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzZBlxugCwQ&t=1m14s
giggs pace on ballfor cross: (not sure if posted already)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzJ_TGuuMZwY&t=10m09s
giggs small give and go burst:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzJ_TGuuMZw&t=7m40s

giggs pace"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxCx1oDEoZs&t=1m00s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbsGybTPRoQ&t=8m06s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXuStz-KmIM&t=0m53s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9OatqUivIA&t=4m18s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9OatqUivIA&t=5m08s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9OatqUivIA&t=2m46s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7coOPyeQJ8&t=1m12s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OngUf8Fn4NQ&t=2m11s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXPSPWrhbeE&t=10m07s (subbed on)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts73tJszFX8&t=6m41s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsuUnWN28TQ&t=4m07s (dummy run)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q14GjghAkwk&t=5m18s

acc?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OngUf8Fn4NQ&t=7m00s

giggs doesn't dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=5m07s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibTgrnh7AHc&t=4m46s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNKxsvH_74v&t=2m20s (huge space on flank)

giggs sa?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbsGybTPRoQ&t=4m43s

giggs blind pass (unintended?):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=9m27s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibTgrnh7AHc&t=3m39s

giggs header:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=3m36s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVr1OE8ny0&t=5m43s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlBSntyqmtQ&t=1m38s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OngUf8Fn4NQ&t=10m22s



giggs 1992:

rwf?


giggs small failed dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=15m33s
giggs dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=16m23s
giggs small retention dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=19m20s
giggs small incisive dribble and shot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=19m48s
giggs small dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=32m50s
giggs long dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=33m54s
giggs touch and sloppy dribble through middle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=1h04m58s
giggs rare risky dribble with space (very unusual):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=1h09m50s
giggs pace and outside pass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=1h10m39s
giggs sombrero with burst:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=1h10m55s
giggs acceleration, dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=1h30m48s
giggs dribble, acceleration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPtypdml5A&t=1h31m31s
giggs great driving dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eSnvArIuXw&t=6m00s
giggs good dribble on left flank:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrqFWWKpYLQ&t=1m30s
giggs breakaway, shot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrqFWWKpYLQ&t=4m48s
giggs small dribble, give and go burst:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIkmr9agnLI&t=1m55s
giggs dribble, cross:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIkmr9agnLI&t=4m02s
giggs cut in dribble with pace:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e618fNtTqnQ&t=1m21s
giggs small counter dribble down midde:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e618fNtTqnQ&t=2m20s
giggs small dribble, cross:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e618fNtTqnQ&t=17m52s
giggs pace, small dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqI0G0IuFzo&t=0m02s
giggs medium pace on counter dribble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj0PLca2liQ&t=13m49s
giggs incisive dribble and underhitpass for throughball:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31JPWJh3qJM&t=2m00s
giggs incisive dribble and shot (robben style):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbTSwauVhXw&t=0m40s


genius 1-touch pass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClGrPGpnnv8&t=1m34s
giggs incisive dribble and shot (robben style):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOcQ4yYBGrQ&t=2m36s
brilliant 1-touch pass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOcQ4yYBGrQ&t=8m00s
famous dribble goal vs spurs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jZkcpU4MBw&t=0m40s


giggs regularly plays inverted rwf before cantona; after cantona arrives, seldom, and eventually almost never


pace:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e618fNtTqnQ&t=2m52s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e618fNtTqnQ&t=19m19s ince sps as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqI0G0IuFzo&t=2m32s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iBBr4pQwPQ&t=3m40s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAvLvhBp_D8&t=3m33s

acc?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqI0G0IuFzo&t=4m20s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj0PLca2liQ&t=10m49s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iBBr4pQwPQ&t=4m08s + pace on ball

sa?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClGrPGpnnv8&t=3m24s
marking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iBBr4pQwPQ&t=8m30s





I've come across the description Ferguson made of Giggs comparing him to a greyhound, and there really is no more vivid a description or comparison of imagery that is more fitting. At times he glides over the ground in a hunched way where it is hard to imagine a more natural or fluid dribbler at speed then GIggs. With his sometimes incredibly small touches, It can be imagined without being absurd, that a Giggs without hamstring issues could possibly have become something like a 98 DA 98 DS. This vision was never realized, but the clear level he showed was at minimum a high 95 DA, or weak 96 DA. His DS in my view was no less then 96, but though he showed phenomenal potential, i don't think he yet proved he was consistently a 97 DS that could just fly around defenders or through midfield lines quite like how Robben proved he could. I find Giggs' dribbling style, and overall demeanor extremely comparable to Messi, which is a bit strange considering the differences in their physiques.
But if we just look at the fluidity and touches Giggs puts on his dribbles, Giggs has a frequency and balance at speed comparable to a young Messi. I don't think he reaches the level of a young Messi or any Messi past 18, he's just comparable- but i do think he surpasses the peak of Robben's dribbling if we specifically discuss the nimbleness and deftness of his touches he can put on the ball while running near full pace.


I've gone as far as the 20's pages for videos when searching for matches, checking if there's anything i haven't seen yet; i've watched every match highlight you can find for the 1992/93 season, and 1993/1994, and all the full matches (i'm not sure how many this is, about 9?). To comment about Giggs' position, the only season Giggs really ever played as an inverted right winger as a left footed player, with some level of freedom or daring to cut inside and attack the centrebacks with incisive dribbles was 1992/93 prior to Cantona's transfer from Leeds in the Winter transfer window. After Cantona's arrival (with Kanchelski surrendering the 7 and changing to number 14), Giggs did play a few more games as a RWF, but eventually it seems clear a decision was made by Ferguson to shift Giggs to the left, and bring Kanchelski to the right, with Cantona playing with Hughes upfront. Giggs never really played as an inverted winger after the end of the 92/93 season- he showed the talent to play in this position, and the potential is there to develop into one of the greatest wingers ever as an inverted winger, but ultimately played too little there to deserve being called a right winger. At best I think Giggs was in this period a left winger that could play both sides. In this period, even as a left winger he still played with a phenomenal daring, speed, and dribbling brilliance in United's famous 1993/94 team. And what a team that was.


It's really only disappointing that there aren't more 1993/94 matches to watch online. I don't enjoy watching alot of types of football matches; slow matches with not much urgency, too much exaggeration against contact or theater, or plodding tactical stalemates. The emphasis and purpose has been studying interesting players with unique skillsets and talents when i go to watch football matches. Often I watch matches despite the meandering pace and lack of daring in alot of football matches, the better to understand or study a particular player, and since the new function of quick fastforward with the right arrow key has been added to most videoplayers, watching matches solely for specific players is less time consuming for me.

There's no need to make watching Fergie's United in 1993/1994 easy on the eyes though, as that 1993/94 united team was really something excellent. A team with not one coward in the starting lineup, with an extreme level of workrate, tenacity, teamwork, tactical commitment, but a resolve for boldness. There were defensively expert fullbacks in Dennis Irwin and Paul Parker (a really excellent defender inspite of his limited football skill), classic defenders that were no world beaters, but a very very solid pairing of pace over distance in Pallister, and a strong tackler and aerial presence in Bruce. Ince had a tremendous workrate while being a bit sloppy in his positioning- though still highly functional, and his very good physical quality, combined with an excellent slide tackle, and surprisingly good ability to hit volleys (albeit with not too much placement) made him a commanding midfielder aside a solid, reserved, and dependable young Roy Keane. Kanchelski was the winger with flair- possessing a powerful frame, and a galloping speed over distance who gave a bit of dynamism in his direct dribbles and willingness to create chances without his teammates while not ignoring his defensive duties- not the technical genius Giggs was, but a considerable force nonetheless. Cantona was a genius- everything that should be said to describe his ability has already been described well by rob. If anyone asks what an orange short passer from a striker that drops deep to playmake looks like, it's Cantona; Zlatan does not compare. Hughes is brilliant as well, every inch the 86 SPA he already has, and before Cantona's arrival a superb playmaker in his own right, and in my opinion, possessing an underrated shot technique even at the 95 he already has, and possibly underrated in his touch as well. A bull despite his height who fought for space, was good in the air, and would surprise you with how good of a dribbler he is at least once a match. Schmeichel was the ideal maniac last line of defence: imposing, surprisingly quick, a goalkeeper of quality that doesn't need to be described. Though i did note that Schmeichel appeared more mortal then I anticipated, and had his fair share of mistakes, or soft goals- he was none the less a big game player that made key saves in key moments, and had the strength of character to instill discipline in the entire team.

It was a team that played determined and unrelenting defence, with brutal and technically challenging offence. It was a team of champions, and it's hard to imagine it achieving what it did without Giggs specifically. If Giggs demanded that the team be built around his prodigious talent, he probably would have been named the best player of the season rather then Cantona, and that foundation having been laid then well on the road to becoming a consistent world player of the year candidate- such was his level of talent. Yet Giggs was willing to defer to the domineering style of Cantona, where play was centered around Cantona's playmaking. Instead of playing as a winger or playmaker whom the team could easily have been built around to support for his fantastic speed, dribbling, passing, and productive (though potentially developable to a much higher level) shooting ability, playing in a set up meant to maximize his talent, Giggs dutifully made dummy runs, used his pace to make give and go's to reach pockets where his long passing skill was the key to provide for his teammates by focusing on crosses to Hughes and Cantona, while proving a dependable covering tandem with Irwin, marking his opposing winger, and picking up runs behind Irwin when Irwin needed to move out of the defensive block to sustain defensive pressure.

United had a selfless prodigy on their left flank that didn't complain about a lack of glory, did the equivalent of a fullbacks' work in his tracking back and covering for Irwin. He was a technically excellent passer with a fantastic curve on his crosses; Giggs' meaningfully focused on using his passes- but was capable at any moment of extraordinary runs with the ball, and had a sharp sense for cutting into the box at the right moment following crosses and bagging well struck goals with his very very good shot technique, and good for a winger heading skills.


A couple of things derailed GIggs: namely his difficulty tolerating a busy season schedule with domestic and european fronts scheduled together, which subsequently lead to his hamstring injuries. I researched his injury history, and outside of sometime around 1995, he never had any serious injuries. However as Giggs said it himself, he couldn't play more then 2 games in a week without picking up an injury of some sort- specifically his chronic hamstring problems. Arguably it could be reasoned Giggs never could have reached any hypothetical peak of all the abilities and potential he showed by 1994, since, if you can't even play 2 games a week, how could you really make a significant impact on a team like united 1992 onwards that was trying for league, league cup, and european success every season? Unarguably anyways, i find that giggs' acceleration and agility were slowly ebbed away year on year after sometime roughly into late 1994 or 1995, and he was meaningfully hampered by 1997/1998. I'll argue as well that Giggs always had a tendency to cede to his teammates more then was warranted, to the detriment of the flow and rhythm of the game, and to the disregard of his own ability. Even at his clear irrefutable best, he still didn't quite dribble as much as he could have, and sometimes, should have. This very well could have been tactically instructed, but the freedom Kanchelski, Poborsky, and subsequently Ronaldo and Nani enjoyed under Ferguson, don't credit that theory very well. I'll also argue that Giggs had a strange way of wanting to create space for himself which was not very efficient, and seldom very successful. I'll argue on those points further, but they are not significant adjustments that i think are needed, just small adjustments.

Now regarding the 1998 era set.

I have seen those two particular examples of phenomenal dribbling control posted by Rob in this thread before, and i think everyone can agree that those are dribbling runs of indisputable balance, attention to close touches on the ball, and control at high speeds. It was to see more of that level of dribbling that years ago I went to watch some United matches in the roughly 1996-1999 era for enjoyment, as players with that kind of technical ability at speed are really a marvel to study. But I was taken aback by what i saw: how timid and unaggressive he was on the ball- his lack of agility, his startling lack of acceleration, a more then occasional sloppiness that marred an obvious class when Giggs attempted turns or dribbles, and above all: a near refusal, it seemed, to meaningfully take on defenders with the ball at his feet.

What i saw really baffled me, here's a guy that seemingly, is rightfully rated as one of the best dribbling wingers ever? Yet he's averaging something like 2 dribbles per game, at a less then 35% success rate? Those ratios are my own estimates, and i think they're actually generous if at all exaggerated. He really was that reluctant to dribble, and seemingly justifiably as his success rate when he did dribble was shockingly low. I spent a long time watching full matches or match highlights (the 12-25 minute forms being posted on youtube) and this impression just became more and more affirmed. There were exceptions, but not nearly enough, and not nearly convincing enough exceptions at that. I'm not sure i'd been this confused when trying to evaluate a player before, because the examples you can find of the very best of Giggs truly are phenomenal, without a question red dribbling accuracy and speed, debatably high reds. Yet there are very few dribbling compilations of Giggs, and of what there is, what's shown is mostly his later years after 2005 or so- not overly impressive stuff, and obviously not Giggs at his best: wherever that was.

I made my own set eventually about a year or two ago just to put down the impression of what i saw consistently Giggs perform like in the full matches, and kept trying to figure out what Giggs was really like in his prime.
Eventually I was just about convinced there was something not quite right about the supposed prime set of Giggs, and i was ready to question the set, when i considered watching the very young performances of Giggs, so I watched some 1993-94 highlights of united, just to see how he played before his supposed prime.
It's amazing, but everything made sense within minutes: the way he moved, his incredible balance, his superb acceleration and aggression in attacking the box, and a far superior daring in dribbling at fullbacks; it was without needing to compare, just about exactly what you would expect looking at the "1998" set. Of course it was sometime after this that i also realized those magnificent dribbling runs that had been referenced before were all 1994 or earlier.



By 1998/99 Giggs really had already changed his playstyle in a significant way. From somewhere around 1996 onwards, the way he could be described as playing could be "2nd fullback stack". Instead of attacking the defence on the ball and committing to runs in the box like he had shown in 1992-1994, the majority of the time GIggs committed to marking the opposition winger, covering overlapping runs, and forming a significant leg of the midfield block when defending.
It's in this period that I think alot of the criticisms of Fantasista and others arise of him, and regarding this period, i find most of what's been said about the set representing 1998 Giggs to be accurate criticism. It can be really shocking watching Giggs 1997/98 upwards if you're expecting the set as it depicts him for 1998, just as I was shocked at the difference between the set given and what I saw. The big difference between his highest level in 1994 is Giggs' drop in aggression. In 1994 Giggs would dribble fullbacks, make dummy runs on counters, and charge into the box trying to win headers or shots on goal. By 1998, it seems Giggs made a dramatic change in his playstyle to account for his ebbing pace and agility- it's evident he still has a world level class in his cuts, and in the fluidity of his dribbles at pace, but while some semblance of his speed on the ball remained, his acceleration had really suffered, as had his agility, and though his dribbling skill was still superb, it was no longer near the level he once held. Accordingly, Giggs nearly cut dribbling out of his game plan entirely. I will firmly hold that he doesn't deserve either the dribbling star, in this period and very arguably here, the possession star. Giggs in this period automatically cedes offensive movements to other players, he will pass first, and dribble often at the last resort, with a huge amount of trepidation as well. Really, he's an Early Cross and Pin point pass style player at this stage. It's a smart, safe way of playing which encourages touches and chances going to the strikers, while guarding his hamstring. As well, the lack of explosive drives towards the goal with the ball were made up with ever increasing defensive prowess and sturdiness. It seemed that Giggs would come alive whenever he became defensively needed, closing down on open players, tracking back with great pace on overlapping runs against Irwin, and in the midfield spaces left by Butt or Keane or Scholes. Giggs' passing did not actually improve much in this period, which is quite surprising; Giggs short passing is better then his peak level, but his long passing is unimproved, and identical to his peak level. Giggs touch and control suffered too it seemed, he slightly lacked a natural ease in taking down passes he wouldn't have thought about before, but which troubled him now.

I kept a notepad of notes of whatever I noticed starting from a few weeks ago, like I said, I only started keeping notes after the fourth or fifth time i had tried to study Giggs when i was pretty sure about a few things, so there are some moments in my mind that aren't in here, but that i couldn't re-find:

Spoiler: show
giggs lack of presituation analysis +action planning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_WXCN17tRw&t=1h12m15s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_WXCN17tRw&t=1h14m03s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_WXCN17tRw&t=1h27m35s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=39m02s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=40m04s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=45m29s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=59m10s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=1h01m06s (huge space in middle to drive a counter with dribble)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=1h14m30s

dribbling awareness and slight lack of tight control cutting inside:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNT8XPGC5Tg&t=7m06s

giggs not dribbling with spacce:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNT8XPGC5Tg&t=19m0s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU7dyb5ESCM&t=35m42s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLj_6F4DlyM&t=18m35s (94/95)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLj_6F4DlyM&t=26m29s (94/95)

surprisingly low dribbling % (below 35%?)
and low dribbling tendency (especially towards defence)

giggs typical dribbling tendency (burst around with pace and fantastic balance,
loses ball cutting back outside with bad timing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=43m23s

surprisingly bad touch to begin dribble with space on counter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=48m15s

good touches in small dribble cutting inside (loses ball):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WcRAaZ92I&t=55m05s

note: vastly outperformed in dribbling by dean saunders vs romania wcq (85 da 84 agi)


giggs burst on dribble 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=14m43s

giggs touch and pace 94/95: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLj_6F4DlyM&t=14m29s

giggs small dribble and pass 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=26m26s

giggs nice long pass 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=31m43s

romario acceleration 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=32m38s

romario acceleration 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=46m30s

giggs acceleration and failed dribble 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15umy ... s&t=02m18s

giggs acceleration to loose ball 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15umy ... ls&t=4m51s

giggs dribble in space (does not attack defence with space) 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=42m40s

giggs dribble 94/95:http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2zo_barcelona-man-utd-1994-95-1st-half_animals&t=43m38s

giggs pass instead of dribbling with pocket of space: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15umy ... s&t=21m15s

giggs pace on ball: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU7dyb5ESCM&t=19m33s

giggs pace 94/95 (with stumble): http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=20m39s

giggs pace 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15umy ... s&t=12m16s

giggs making space + pass (failed weight): http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15umy ... s&t=23m17s

giggs pace 94/95: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXjD39mFdAo&t=4m57s

giggs long dribbling run 94/95: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXjD39mFdAo&t=14m19s

giggs burst on dribble: 94/95: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXjD39mFdAo&t=19m22s

giggs pace 95/96:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T72HKNAdI_o&t=17m26s (much slower?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T72HKNAdI_o&t=20m16s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T72HKNAdI_o&t=25m57s (vs gilliespie)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T72HKNAdI_o&t=30m13s (small glimpse of acc)

giggs pace 96/97: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47mdtg&t=29m57s

giggs dribble 96/97:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47mdtg&t=1h02m59s
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47mdtg&t=1h08m18s

giggs dribble and small touches in pressure 96/97: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47m42 ... t=1h24m04s
failed dribble at 1:24:13? takes touch with right foot and kicks ahead instead of
cutting in and using supposed immense speed on ball, with big gap in defence ahead.

surely giggs has to head this? 96/97: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47m42 ... t=1h38m55s

fantastic awareness for pass 96/97: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48b33 ... s&t=18m53s

giggs already playing cmf role in cl at 23. myth of adapting play style? always smf/cmf rather then wf.

giggs chooses not to dribble ahead with speed wiith space infront of him, instead cuts inside and plays passes (typical behaviour):
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48b33 ... s&t=21m49s

giggs dribbling 96/97:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48b33 ... s&t=34m59s
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48b33 ... s&t=36m50s

giggs pace 96/97: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48b33 ... s&t=46m58s

giggs doesn't dribble incisively for shot when down 1 with huge space:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47mdtg&t=1h26m32s

giggs covering:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47mdtg&t=1h03m49s
giggs tracking overlap run:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47mdtg&t=1h13m35s

1998/99
giggs acceleration and covering: (covers all game to fantastic effect with irwin):
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t&t=21m48s
giggs aceleration (quite good here):
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t&t=24m10s
giggs small incisivev dribble from lmf:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t&t=30m02s
giggs covering and defending:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t&t=44m58s
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t*t=47m12s
giggs underhit pass 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=15m31s
giggs lack of aggression; counter attack and nowhere near recovering overhit cross- counter takes 9 seconds from the release pass to when beckham's cross is in the box:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t&t=56m31s
giggs lack of aggression again:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t&t=58m10s

this lack of aggression nearly unanimous of giggs post 1995/96
giggs covering and defending:
giggs 1-touch passes:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t=1h16m26s

giggs dribble speed in space(counter):
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t=1h28m28s

giggs more often then expected runs into teammates? an observation of an impression:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265av ... t=1h11m17s

giggs speed on ball vs djorkaeff:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=3m25s
giggs fantastic turn:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl*5m43s
giggs acceleration vs zanetti:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=8m10s
giggs doesn't dribble, chooses strange pass that fails:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=11m16s
giggs speed:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=12m47s
giggs dribble vs zanetti:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=18m17s
gigggs challenges zanetti, but doesnt dribble:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=22m54s
giggs dribbles-tackled:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=29m32s
giggs dribbles with speed against zanetti with space, stumbles:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=32m34s
giggs acceleration (contrast with irwin):
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=41m20s
giggs challenges but does not dribble zanetti:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=47m22s
giggs speed, dribble and shot with right foot:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=55m19s
giggs good mazing dribble:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=1h00m47s
giggs acc?:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=1h19m58s
giggs sa?:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=1h20m20s
giggs top speed vs zanetti:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=1h29m55s
giggs speed on dribble counter (covered by zanetti):
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265asl&t=1h31m43s


giggs dribble:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=8m00s
giggs small dribbles in middle on counter:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=11m45s
giggs small dribble, give and go, burst:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=21m12s
giggs small cut in dribble from lwf:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=23m30s
giggs small dribble, give and go speed:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=25m20s
giggs cut and acceleration:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=31m35s
giggs pace, speed on the ball, and cut in pass:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=31m20s
giggs strange decision:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=43m58s
giggs turn, strange pass:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=46m09s
giggs dribble for blocked cross:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=48m58s
giggs turn under pressure too slow?:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=54m54s
giggs good dribble, not enough acceleration:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=55m39s
giggs lack of acceleration to get to cross:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=1h08m56s
giggs covering:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x265aur&t=1h14m52s



The type of set I think Giggs could have for 1996 to 1999 would look something like this:


Attack: 88
Defence: 51
Balance: 78
Stamina: 85
Top Speed: 90
Acceleration: 87
Response: 80
Agility: 84
Dribble Accuracy: 93
Dribble Speed: 92
Short Pass Accuracy: 82
Short Pass Speed: 76
Long Pass Accuracy: 85
Long Pass Speed: 79
Shot Accuracy: 81
Shot Power: 82
Shot Technique: 85
Free Kick Accuracy: 81
Curling: 87
Header: 72
Jump: 78
Technique: 88
Aggression: 81
Mentality: 78
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 82

Condition/Fitness: 4
Weak Foot Accuracy: 5
Weak Foot Frequency: 4

I'm much more comfortable with the ideas i have about the 1994 Giggs compared to a 1998 set, or anything between that. In the period between 1994 to 1996, for a small time Giggs was around a 94 DA with a 95 DS, still capable of great dribble control, with agility something like an 87, and acceleration arguably around 90- but his style was not really defined in this period in my view, he was transitioning to a different role, but did not know how to dribble in a way to suit the role he needed to adapt to given his injury problems, and lesser effectiveness in his previous dribbling style.
The key attributes i'm deliberating over are his attack, agility, acceleration, and teamwork. He contributed less to danger overall, but it seemed like his decision making was less improvised, a bit more effective, and a bit better with analyzing situations, and playing passes with a preset strategy or next move. I started at around 85 attack, but am open now to as much as 88.
His agility is really troubling, this to me is the biggest limiting factor that forced his style change, as he has a really hard time cutting compared to before, and if you watch his dribbling, it's much stiffer and less fluid then previously. As Fantasista noted, even his great Arsenal goal was not really some display of great agility, just deft touches.
About his acceleration- i think most of the time 85 acceleration is really enough, but he is capable of enough bursts that make as high as 87 not an unreasonable value, but this would be the limit from what i've seen. Regarding his teamwork value, it is quite high, and he still had a bit of a habit from his attacking winger days of drifting more then you would be comfortable for a player of such a value like 82 for a SMF, but he had by this period such an excellent workrate, understanding, and damn near interchangeable covering for Irwin that i feel he deserves this value to show that. He is at this period the ultimate example of a covering side midfielder- I've not seen it done as well as Giggs does it at this period, while still having some real midfield function.
I think this DA and DS is enough to perform those really excellent dribbles he was still very much capable of, but still limiting him to what he was, a clear level below his 1994 level.
I'm not sure how much his defence could reach, but he was still not a really good tackler or disposseser, he just had a perfect sense of where he needed to be positionally in the midfield block, and a good ability to put himself in front of the attacker and jockey him away. His slide tackling was better, but not too prominent.
I wouldn't mind mentality going to 80? those are the significant aspects of the set. Other then that he needs covering, probably marking, slidetackling removing dribbling, pretty sure but still not certain of removing possession, 1-touch pass, early cross, and pinpoint pass.

As I said earlier about peak Giggs, I think the current set is pretty much spot on for the range of his ability at that moment, but i think he was a bit sloppier and occaisonally mixed up, while being responsively sharper. I'd see him like:


Attack: 87
Defence: 46
Balance: 76
Stamina: 86
Top Speed: 88
Acceleration: 93
Response: 81
Agility: 90
Dribble Accuracy: 96
Dribble Speed: 96
Short Pass Accuracy: 80
Short Pass Speed: 74
Long Pass Accuracy: 85
Long Pass Speed: 79
Shot Accuracy: 81
Shot Power: 82
Shot Technique: 85
Free Kick Accuracy: 81
Curling: 87
Header: 75
Jump: 78
Technique: 90
Aggression: 92
Mentality: 75
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 76

Condition/Fitness: 5
Weak Foot Accuracy: 5
Weak Foot Frequency: 4


I am open to that 1998 set just being relabelled 1994 and it would still be fine, but in my view he had a little more power for a slightly higher top speed after 1995, despite losing a huge amount of his acceleration. He's not possibly any bit lower then 88, but i think 88 is the right value for what he consistently reached for his top speed, he did on occasion hit something like 90 TS, but what i saw was that he was consistently an 88 TS for whatever reason. After 1995 I think he's clearly a bit better at his top speed, and consistently so.
I think he wasn't quite so refined an attacker to deserve 90 attack, i think what can be seen as intelligent selflessness is actually more of the gravity of his natural inclination- the kind of play he trends towards: passing to teammates. I've noticed that even at his most aggressive form he sometimes wrongly deferred to his teammates to the detriment of his teams best chance to score a goal in certain situations: himself. Sometimes the self focused play is the most dangerous one, and it's a type of play Giggs is just a bit too hesitant to embrace in my opinion. I think when the comparison to Ribery was made earlier, there is truth that what Giggs produces is of higher quality and pure technical threat then anything Ribery is capable of, but Ribery at his peak to me felt more refined in the sense that he knew the best ways to hurt a team through his skillset, and he used those methods, whether they were self focused, or a pass. Whether this is really the producable effect through attack is still debatable, but it's consistent to how i differentiate players, and consistent to how i regard attack- not only being selfless at the right time, but also selfish at the right times. With a 92 aggression, i think he will still attack at the high rate he would at this form, but with a bit of a lack of that higher level pre-situational awareness and readiness to execute without hesitation in certain situations.

Regarding Acceleration, i have to be honest, i'm harsher and harsher on both agility and acceleration in general the more players i watch, but to show a contrast through some examples of someone else, I was watching the barcelona match in 1994-1995, and there were two clear moments of Romario acceleration that i don't think even peak Giggs could match in anything i saw of him. They're pasted somewhere in that mess of the 1995+ era notes, but here they are:

romario acceleration 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=32m38s

romario acceleration 94/95: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15u2z ... s&t=46m30s

A note: those dailymotion links don't actually link you to the time, as i tested them and dailymotion doesn't have this function like youtube does (it seems), but if you open the link this way, the time will still be there in the url bar when you're on the video page, so that you can just skip to the right time with the relevant time stated in the link.

Even if i'm pretty harsh on acceleration, to me that is a pretty damn clear example of red acceleration, a 95, and i haven't seen something consistently near that level that Romario shows from Giggs even at his peak- 93 acceleration is still a superb value especially with such a big top speed value, and his dribble speed as well. I'm open, but prefer this kind of value

If you noticed i brought up his shot accuracy once or twice in the notes, it's because i'm just a bit skeptical about his shot accuracy in general, but this is a pretty small detail that i'm not very convinced in.


In the end Giggs seems a player that could have been something greater in a different style of football, say Spain, or with a coach having an emphasis on ball possession and technical dribbling attacks like what is emphasized today. With Giggs' difficulty acclimatizing to high workload seasons, and his innate instinct to pass first instead of attack with the ball first that has been present since his first united game, perhaps Giggs never really would have become anything other then what he became.
It is to Giggs' credit the way he had always served his teams and adapted to the other stars of United over two decades though, and even as i speak about his 1998 form as being something lesser then what he was before, really in near all of the champions league matches i saw of Manchester United, Giggs performed, and he often seemed to come alive, dribbling with a bit of a instinct for danger, an urgency and a sense for the occasion where he seemed to feel the right things to do. He was very much still a superb player even being less what he could have been, and over twenty years, proved himself an invaluable part of many great teams of history.


If you look at the run of league titles and domestic success from 1992 to Giggs retirement in 2014, it's a domestic dominance that no other team in any of the top leagues is really close at all at matching, not Barcelona, not Bayern, not Real Madrid, not Juventus, not Paris Saint-Germain, or Lyon, not any of Porto or Benfica. It's a domestic run of success that stands tall in history, and while it could not have happened without Alex Ferguson, I very much doubt it could have happened without Giggs either.


I'd like to say that this is an outstanding post, and I will try to take the time to analyse what you have said thoroughly when I can. The sets seem like an excellent foundation to be honest and I think that probably we should go ahead and update and work with them as a foundation, but its down to the mods of course. I know a lot of people put some hard work into the set before too.
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Re: Ryan Giggs | 1993-94 | 1996-99 | 2006-09

Postby Durie » 2018 Feb 17, 00:14

I'm in disagreement with the last posts. I am a big fan of Giggs and I've watched a lot of games of him. In my opinion, he was in his best form during 99-01 seasons. During these 2 seasons, all his play-style was about sprinting and dribbling at full speed. For me, he reached his maximum top speed and acceleration in these years.

See some examples:

ACCELERATION (Oustanding)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l8RwBdvvj8&t=33s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ_1qvGw_0Q&t=
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJe9euKs_DI&t=77s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSSfC7rv8bc&t=29s

SPEED WITH THE BALL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI4diBAO4gw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI4diBAO4gw&t=180s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwOP8jseRbk&t=1380s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwOP8jseRbk&t=1606s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPeo8fkgC1E&t=2280s with amazing acceleration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXp_3qc72JM&t=184s incredible top speed with the ball tight at his feet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXp_3qc72JM&t=85s

Also this clips from later years

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouJ43MjW3DE&t=3440s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouJ43MjW3DE&t=3690s

In my opinion at his prime (99-01) should have TP 91; AC 97; DA: 95; DS 97
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Re: Ryan Giggs | 1993-94 | 1996-99 | 2006-09

Postby vinnie » 2018 Feb 17, 01:10

Durie wrote:I'm in disagreement with the last posts. I am a big fan of Giggs and I've watched a lot of games of him. In my opinion, he was in his best form during 99-01 seasons. During these 2 seasons, all his play-style was about sprinting and dribbling at full speed. For me, he reached his maximum top speed and acceleration in these years.


i appreciate the examples, and i'm glad someone also noticed that uploader's vs videos of giggs- i saw them all pretty close to whenever he originally posted them, and it made me want to make a set for that era, because there's a good amount of footage from his channel.

however, i still disagree about how high you want to rate giggs acceleration- it's very good but far from 97 acceleration in my own opinion.

on the other hand, the dribbling accuracy and dribbling speed he showed in those vs vids was indeed superb, scintillating stuff.

what confused me when i first watched those videos though, and why i held off saying anything back then was because i read alot of comments and articles about how giggs was apparently bad in the era of those videos; there were some articles recounting united fans wanted him sold around 2001-2003? i couldn't understand why based on what he showed in those videos.

that uploader was uploading videos week after week, so i was hoping there would be more, but there weren't any more so i moved on to other players until i could find more footage to use.

i also wonder if you confused what era i was talking about for the slumped form of giggs? i wasn't talking about 1999-2001, i was talking about 1995-1998/99. he really struggled to accelerate and was much more awkward and less nimble than his 1993 era form. giggs still had great moments, but was consistently hampered, and clearly struggling to show the same nimbleness and explosiveness he showed before. in my opinion the difference was at times staggering comparing between his 1993 form, and what he showed at times around 1997'.



Edit:

wow i didn't realize you had some examples from full matches, i assumed you were posting examples only vs videos from that uploader adam lee's channel. these examples are fantastic, thanks alot.


when i was watching vs vids of that 2001' era in the summer, i was so impressed. when you say that 1999-2001 era of giggs is his best, my impression back then was honestly the same, his dribbling and dribbling speed is so good in those videos, and he's so direct and aggressive. i can't really say with any certainty though because i watched so much more of the 93' giggs, especially in full matches and highlights, while i haven't yet watched full matches of giggs in that 2001 era.

i would really appreciate your take on how you would compare that 1993' era giggs against 1999-01.
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Re: Ryan Giggs | 1993-94 | 1996-99 | 2006-09

Postby Durie » 2018 Feb 17, 10:30

vinnie wrote:
Durie wrote:I'm in disagreement with the last posts. I am a big fan of Giggs and I've watched a lot of games of him. In my opinion, he was in his best form during 99-01 seasons. During these 2 seasons, all his play-style was about sprinting and dribbling at full speed. For me, he reached his maximum top speed and acceleration in these years.


i appreciate the examples, and i'm glad someone also noticed that uploader's vs videos of giggs- i saw them all pretty close to whenever he originally posted them, and it made me want to make a set for that era, because there's a good amount of footage from his channel.

however, i still disagree about how high you want to rate giggs acceleration- it's very good but far from 97 acceleration in my own opinion.

on the other hand, the dribbling accuracy and dribbling speed he showed in those vs vids was indeed superb, scintillating stuff.

what confused me when i first watched those videos though, and why i held off saying anything back then was because i read alot of comments and articles about how giggs was apparently bad in the era of those videos; there were some articles recounting united fans wanted him sold around 2001-2003? i couldn't understand why based on what he showed in those videos.

that uploader was uploading videos week after week, so i was hoping there would be more, but there weren't any more so i moved on to other players until i could find more footage to use.

i also wonder if you confused what era i was talking about for the slumped form of giggs? i wasn't talking about 1999-2001, i was talking about 1995-1998/99. he really struggled to accelerate and was much more awkward and less nimble than his 1993 era form. giggs still had great moments, but was consistently hampered, and clearly struggling to show the same nimbleness and explosiveness he showed before. in my opinion the difference was at times staggering comparing between his 1993 form, and what he showed at times around 1997'.



Edit:

wow i didn't realize you had some examples from full matches, i assumed you were posting examples only vs videos from that uploader adam lee's channel. these examples are fantastic, thanks alot.


when i was watching vs vids of that 2001' era in the summer, i was so impressed. when you say that 1999-2001 era of giggs is his best, my impression back then was honestly the same, his dribbling and dribbling speed is so good in those videos, and he's so direct and aggressive. i can't really say with any certainty though because i watched so much more of the 93' giggs, especially in full matches and highlights, while i haven't yet watched full matches of giggs in that 2001 era.

i would really appreciate your take on how you would compare that 1993' era giggs against 1999-01.


Many thanks for your response.

About criticisms on Giggs, those began on 2002/2003 season, and in 2001/2002 season, Giggs had many hamstrings problems and started to lose acceleration and speed little by little, though still had some peaks of forms years after as you could see in the 04/05 match vs Crystal palace where his speed and acc was amazing. According to a CD-ROM I have from the Manchester united official magazine of the 2000/2001 season, in an interview to Giggs, he admitted that he played his best football of his career during 99/00 and 00/01 seasons. And according to the next links, he was on the best form of his life in the year 2000:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/477303 ... ation.html
http://kwong123456.tripod.com/Untitled-3.htm

Well, I think that his AC, should be at least on red. He is a very few of the players I've seen in my life that when he starts running, easily leave behind any player a meter of distance in the first two meters with the ball at his feet.

Another example of his tremendous AC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rFlSumTH5g&t=3701s

A video of very poor quality but of a great example of his amazing speed and acc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufka_W2Nz8U
Specially worth noting his acc just in this moment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufka_W2Nz8U&t=154s

I've many vids of Manchester 99-01 season I he was just incredible, also his passing accurateness was really very good. I would say that in 00/01 season was even more aggressive and direct that in 99/00, he was full of confidence
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Re: Ryan Giggs | 1993-94 | 1996-99 | 2006-09

Postby vinnie » 2018 Feb 17, 19:52

thanks for the insight about the criticisms he got for those seasons.

about acceleration, can i get an idea of what kinds of players you would use as a point of comparison against giggs' acceleration? i was working on paolo futre and regarded his acceleration in the bursting and explosive ability itself to be better than giggs; when i watched someone like douglas costa- a player i've been debating about whether he is worth red acceleration or not, and who i currently am satisfied with at 94 acceleration- i see him as a level above giggs, and true red accelerators like aaron lennon or adama traore are a clear gap above giggs in my opinion.

in the first example i think you'll notice he caught the defender off balance and giggs had already started accelerating forward while the defender was also trying to move forward to intercept giggs- creating a very high displacement acceleration. the individual acceleration shown by giggs there was great but not red level though.

i see giggs a bit like a messi type of effectiveness when accelerating- but with less acceleration, but clearly higher top speed. they can use that burst more efficiently than other more explosive players because they can carry the ball so smoothly and cleanly and with so little loss of control- a result of their unbelievable levels of dribbling accuracy and dribbling speed. the younger giggs had a decent burst, but i honestly recall my impression of the 2001 giggs was foremost being amazed by the da and ds he was showing, but i wasn't that impressed with the acceleration i saw. i think giggs' dribbling speed is the key to giggs' ability to carry the ball past defenders so smoothly and effectively.

but, if you think you have better examples, i'm open to consider the topic. i don't have a set opinion on giggs in 2001 because i'm not as familiar with him and though i have some time spent watching him through those vs videos, i haven't watched him in that era nearly as much as i watched the 93' giggs.

it would be fantastic to see whatever examples you have, as many examples as possible is all welcome!
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Re: Ryan Giggs | 1993-94 | 1996-99 | 2006-09

Postby Durie » 2018 Feb 18, 08:50

Well, Traore is the quickest player I've ever seen in my life, followed by Overmars. I think that he deserves 99 of AC and 98 of TS.

In my opinion, Giggs was faster than Futre including better sprinting skills with superb sprint style-technique (pose). Yeah! I think that Douglas and Giggs are in a very similar class, and in my opinion, Douglas should have a red AC.

In the year 2000, in my opinion, Giggs along with Overmars, both were the most explosive players with the best first 10 meters of the world football, and as you point, the ability to accelerate of Giggs with the ball tight on his foot was unique, the quickest player I've seen along with Messi.

Since my computer has no DVD reader, I had to record with my phone directly from the TV some examples of 00/01. I could record more plays of Giggs, but it would require a lot of time finding the exact moments. In the next link you can download some great accelerations of Giggs, I've also included some vids I downloaded in the past, including from 99/00 season.

https://we.tl/yMVi33NYnG

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