Bobby Moore | 1966-1970


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Bobby Moore | 1966-1970

Postby PES Stats Database » 2008 Dec 11, 01:27

Club: West Ham United


Growth type: Standard/Lasting


INFO:

Spoiler: show
A composed central defender, Moore was admired for his reading of the game and ability to anticipate opposition movements, thereby distancing himself from the image of the hard-tackling, high-jumping defender. Indeed, Moore's ability to head the ball or keep up with the pace was average at best, but the way he read the game, marshalled his team and timed his tackles marked him out as world class.

Stats explanation:

Characterised by his seemingly effortless authority, elegance and skill, Bobby Moore was easily best defender in Britain in the 1960s and early 70s, some say the best defender ever. He is without doubt one of the best players, captains and Men this country has ever produced.

Although he didn't posses great pace, nor towering height, he compensated for this with his great anticipation and vision, and his tackling was clean, incisive, and perfectly timed. His unruffled and often diffident manner concealed a sharp, aware football brain.

I watched quite a few matches of him now and for his time at least, he was the most intelligent defender ever. Its Kinda impossible to compare players over different era's especially defenders with tactics evolving, changes to the offside trap etc. But because of the type of defender he was I reckon he would waltz into modern football. Moore was a diamond in the rough of hard tackling English defenders which wouldn't get away with half the stuff they did back then. The revolution in defensive tactics putting more prominence into zonal marking, clean interceptions and tackling while hard tackling defenders have become more of a dying art especially after FIFA's ban on the tackle from behind and all periodic vows to punish any dangerous mean a tackle is now far more likely to be considered a foul.

Moore being considered a 'master reader' of the game makes people believe that he should be res>def defender Which I dont think he was. Sure his reactions were superb, he would come out and intercept more so than say Nesta, but he didnt do this all the time. his reading of the game was more down to his intelligence and anticipation to know where the ball would end up and his ability to to 'steal' it.. like what P1rha referred to in Moore's thread. Watching him he just oozes class in the way he defenders not jumping in straight away ( like what most Res>Def defenders would do) rather just wait for the moment and take the ball away from the attacker. The famous clip of Jairzinho attacking him from the wing and the way Moore checks back to tackle him in the penalty area is one such example of his style and how he could read defensive situations like a book. He proved that if you have a great football brain you dont need great pace. He had a gift for being able to 'read the game' and get to the right position where the ball was going to end up before quicker players could.

He was also a great distributor of the ball from the back. England always seemed to have an extra outlet with his chipped balls from deep and he seemed to have a telepathic communication with Geoff hurst. Just like England's fourth goal in the WC against W. Germany. Jack Charlton said that when Moore got the ball down in the area of the corner flag, he was yelling at him to put it into the stands so that they could eat up the few remaining seconds that were left but that wasn't Bobby's way. He just calmly controlled the ball, looked up and hit a 40 yard pass that put Geoff Hurst in the clear to score. Calmness personified.

I think a agility/ DS swap would replicate him better. Agility doesn't need that be that high, he was very composed and elegant on the ball when turning his general movements are better represented with giving him higher DA.. Sometimes he could even be caught dwelling on the ball Against more high-pressing teams from the era just like Oriello's famous Poles :P

Still unsure about DS being that low though, it makes sense but then he did like to occasionally bring the ball forward out of defence and pass the ball from the halfway line, especially after his interceptions. I just like the way it feels in the game personally, I'd say that he uses his DS more than most classical playmakers for instance ( one of which im about to get to :p) and he is just as quick on the ball as player with similar ratings in the epl as well.

Not sure Id give him similar speed stats to Kompany for instance as well. The argument was that because he was so composed with the ball and so good in positioning that he doesn't need to go full speed.. but in my opinion if he doesn't show it enough during a game he doesn't deserve it.


HONOURS:

World Cup: 1966
European Cup Winners Cup - 1965
FA Cup Winner - 1964
Footballer Of The Year - 1964
World Cup Player Of Players - 1966
West Ham Player Of The Year - 1961, 1963, 1968, 1970
BBC Sports Personality Of The Year - 1966
Awarded the O.B.E - 1967
Inducted into English Football Hall of Fame- 2002


COMMENTS:

"Bobby was my football idol. I looked up to him. I'm so proud to have played against him." - Franz Beckenbauer

"He was my friend as well as the greatest defender I ever played against. The world has lost one of its greatest football players and an honourable gentleman." - Pelé

"There should be a law against him. He knows what's happening 20 minutes before everyone else." - Jock Stein



VIDEOS:

Spoiler: show



ADDITIONAL LINKS:

Spoiler: show
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Moore

http://www.bobbymooreonline.co.uk/

http://www.ifhof.com/hof/moore.asp

http://www.planetworldcup.com/LEGENDS/moore.html

Last edited by Plava Čigra on 2010 Feb 04, 20:36, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1970/1971

Postby POSTER#1 » 2008 Dec 11, 01:33

Recent Suggestions;

p1rha Posted: Nov 18 2008, 01:45 AM wrote:In fact he was very good with the ball, and not just for a defender. As akward it may seem he used the "rabona" . I´ve seen him doing it in the world cup 1996 against Portugal, where he climbs into the midfield and does that flairy rabona short pass to B. Charlton, so i guess he deserves a lot better general technique. Not just for this of course.

Also, players with high technique don´t have to do so many fouls. When there's a loose ball or dispute between 2 players, the player with best technique (providing the other stats are the same) is more likely to win the ball back and proceed play, not just taking the ball away from the oponent but getting it back. And i think this suits B. Moore pretty well.

sugestions:

Balance: 81
Dribble Accuracy: 77
Dribble Speed: 73
Short Pass Accuracy: 81
Short Pass Speed: 76
Long Pass Accuracy: 84
Long Pass Speed: 79
Technique: 80

Some people may think i over rated him, but i'm convinced he was the best passer among the 1966 team, wich suggests his passing stats should be even better.


Oriello Posted: Nov 18 2008, 06:25 AM wrote:Watch at 2:35, some evidence of Moore's good touch and ball control :P :lol: ;
"The second goal was down to Jacek Gmoch, our assistant coach, who analysed the opposition. He'd pinpointed a weakness in Moore's game. The defenders all passed the ball to Moore and left it to him to play it forward, but he tended to dwell on the ball. Gmoch told our forwards to expect this and to put immediate pressure on Moore. Lubanski had anticipated the pass to Moore and was on top of him straight away." -- Jan Tomaszewski


About mentality I play with Moore frequently with my Heracles team, and the increase to 90 I think has made him play much more 'hands on', and he often is leaving the defence to try and break up play in midfield early. Now he did the same at the old value of 89 :P and I do not think he should have any lower value, I am simply mentioning that he does not play in a relaxed manner that he was famed for. Not suggessting any changes just listing something I have noticed. ;)


Vandeacech Posted: Nov 24 2008, 06:14 PM wrote:I feel mentality should be lowered considerably Moore was famed for playing in a relaxed manner and didn't close players down simply because he didn't have to Mentality has to do with chasing players down and I eel people rate it high for determined players who don't necessarily chase players down.


Brezza Posted: Nov 24 2008, 08:15 PM wrote:Yeah I agree with that now actually. I think balance could come down a couple points as well, he might be a bit too over physical with 85 and he wasn't that type of player.


Vandeacech Posted: Nov 24 2008, 08:19 PM wrote:Balance should probably go down to 81 he never really beat players with strength. I'd also up passing even moore( :D ) he was often mistaken for a midfielder because of his fantastic passing,vision and balls up field he was also very composed on the ball.About Mentality I'm unsure on a figure if I say Low 70's I feel I'd get shot :P Beckenbauer should also be lowered he never chased down players either.

Suggestions:
Balance: 81
Dribble Accuracy: 80
Short Pass Accuracy: 79
Short Pass Speed: 80
Long Pass Accuracy: 83
Long Pass Speed: 82
Technique: 84

Need opions on Mentality though


Brezza Posted: Nov 25 2008, 08:56 PM wrote:Was he really more technically gifted than some of the more sweeperish defenders like Hansen, Passarella, Baresi, or Scirea?


Oriello Posted: Nov 25 2008, 11:26 PM wrote:These raises would make him rival or better than Sammer in some respects, and I do not think Moore was a type of defender that could waltz into midfield and start acting like a CMF, the passing that he undertook was generally as a Defender who was not being pressured on all quarters as midfielders are constantly. His Short Pass speed could go up if anything, but other than that...as he does have a Team Work of 90, which will gaurentee a high understanding with team-mates and help facilitate distribution from the back.
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1970/1971

Postby Vandeach » 2009 Feb 10, 21:03

In the Beckenbauer thread I suggested a mentality of 70.
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1970/1971

Postby Brezza » 2009 Mar 21, 00:06

Righto Update time

Dribble accuracy is pretty shocking really 1 point more than Carragher? Moore was superbly composed on the ball he was unflappable under pressure, a quality that spread calm throughout the team. The video Oriello posted where he got caught in possession was a one in a thousand mistake really, i believe he was passed his prime then , he looked really rigid to turn on the ball

he wasn't as skillful as sweepers like Scirea or Sammer but around the same as Hansen Ferdinand and Baresi , id go with dribble Accuracy 80 and technique 80-82?

Completely right about his distribution of the ball which was impeccable for a defender tremendous vision of the pass out of defence like Koeman. He was almost like a playmaker from the back just dropping the ball in an area furthest from the defender with ease like when he set up Geoff Hurst in the 66 final. id go with LPA 83 LPS 82 with Vandeach short passing
suggestions

id also raise teamwork he was the ultimate organiser and had an unbound relationship with his defence he marshaled them like no other, also adding his superb vision into the equation I reckon he should be closer to Baresi, id give him a 94

I agree on dropping balance to 81/82 he was strong but he never really relied on his strength, the AI might be a bit over physical with the current rating which is not his style

As for Mentality i think 70 is too drastic to repeat what i said in the Beckenbaur thread: theres no way id rate it on par with Adriano or someone. Your right to lower it as he relied on his reading on the game rather than busting a sweat and closing people down everywhere, but putting in too low will have an adverse affect on the other purpose of mentality. He won't perform that well under pressure or try and carry the team forward and just give it up. Id say 80 is fine

And finally defence which i would put to 95 yes his reading of the game defined him as a defender but theres still a three point deficit there. For me is positioning and effectiveness of his tackling are just as good as Nesta nowadays or Ayala in his prime.

So overall:

Defence: 95
Balance: 82
Dribble Accuracy: 80
Short Pass Accuracy: 79
Short Pass Speed: 80
Long Pass Accuracy: 83
Long Pass Speed: 82
Technique: 80-82
Mentality: 80
Teamwork: 94


Thoughts?

Edit: decided to update the more obvious values other things like defence teamwork and mentality need a bit more discussion I think.
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1970/1971

Postby Phil » 2009 Aug 20, 00:33

I'm pretty certain Bobby Moore is in no way positionally inferior to Beckenbauer yet these stats show otherwise i'd say at the very minumum he should be 95 but in my opinion he could be 96/97
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1970/1971

Postby zingo » 2009 Aug 20, 10:47

phil-g2006 wrote:I'm pretty certain Bobby Moore is in no way positionally inferior to Beckenbauer yet these stats show otherwise i'd say at the very minumum he should be 95 but in my opinion he could be 96/97


Yeah, I agree he should definately be in the God zone for defence, because from what I heard his positioning sense was unreal, and he was always there. I agree with it being 96-97.
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1970/1971

Postby Keaty22 » 2009 Aug 20, 12:27

i also agree with defence 96-97 for defence
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1970/1971

Postby p1rha » 2009 Aug 20, 15:08

To bad defence as little to do with positioning, it's more about the ability to steal the ball, positioning can replicate with the stars and his high response
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1970/1971

Postby Brezza » 2009 Sep 02, 17:45

phil-g2006 wrote:I'm pretty certain Bobby Moore is in no way positionally inferior to Beckenbauer yet these stats show otherwise i'd say at the very minumum he should be 95 but in my opinion he could be 96/97


Beckebaur's Defence is overrated I plan on updating him later. Again Id say he was just on the cusp of god region for defence it was mianly his reading of the game and ability to anticipate everything and time challenges superbly that made him the player he was. So I think that gap should be there. But hell he could have 99 response to be honest, considering that Beckenbaur had a bit more pace on his side.
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1970/1971

Postby Phil » 2009 Oct 23, 14:49

Stats look a lot better now imo. Arguably the best defender ever, he didn't rely on pace and strength he just anticipated every little occurence around him. Though i do think that if anyone deserves 99 response then its him (along with Beckenbauer). Maldini is also on this and I consider Moore being marginally better, besides Maldini is a lot faster and stronger.
Last edited by Phil on 2009 Oct 23, 14:52, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1970/1971

Postby HFClub » 2009 Oct 23, 14:51

Was he this slow? In the videos i've seen, he looks stronger and faster. I really don't know what to point out as accurate, but it is what i looks.
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1970/1971

Postby andykeikei » 2009 Oct 23, 16:02

HFClub wrote:Was he this slow? In the videos i've seen, he looks stronger and faster. I really don't know what to point out as accurate, but it is what i looks.

When I think about it, I agree with you as well. I think it is general perception that he is slow, but in my opinion he is just too compose with the ball and too good in positioning that he doesn't need to go full speed, as a result got underrated by the media with his physical aspect of the game. So may be improving his speed to TS77 and ACC78?

On the other hand, I think his balance is fine because I rarely saw him muscling other players out of the way.

I have some problems trying to replicate his game. From some 60s video that I have seen, Bobby Moore did not stay at the back of the backline like the center back nowadays. So often he appeared like a DM and intercepted passes near the middle of the pitch (I guess that's why some people say he is a left half). He liked to go forward too, certainly not box to box like Matthaus, but he would dribble cross the halfway line and looking for teammates to pass to (much more frequent than Ferdinand does it, but I guess its because teams back then don't press that much). The left back would tend to cover the space Moore left behind.
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1970/1971

Postby HFClub » 2009 Oct 23, 17:01

Yes I agree. Good analisys by the way.
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1970/1971

Postby Keaty22 » 2009 Dec 21, 22:44

why are these stats from 1970 when i thought his prime was '66 as well as that header could possibly go up 2 points
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1970-1971

Postby HFClub » 2009 Dec 22, 11:26

Agree with TS77 and ACC78
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1970/1971

Postby Keaty22 » 2010 Jan 18, 17:14

Keaty22 wrote:why are these stats from 1970 when i thought his prime was '66
look at his honours there all about 66
also defence could be 96 (not sure) agree with ts 77 and acc 78, header could also go up not sure what
Last edited by Keaty22 on 2010 Jan 19, 16:59, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1970/1971

Postby andykeikei » 2010 Jan 18, 18:32

Keaty22 wrote:why are these stats from 1970 when i thought his prime was '66


Keaty22 wrote:look at his honours there all about 66
also defence could be 96 (not sure) agree with ts 77 and acc 78, header also could go up not sure what


Not that I disagree with you, but I think some people think that Moore played even better at the 1970 World Cup, and everyone seemed to remember his tackle on Jairzinho!

I also agree with your suggestions as well.
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1966-1970

Postby Keaty22 » 2010 Jan 19, 17:06

cheers header could go up to 84 and jump 85 as well teamwork should be 94 (as brezza suggested)
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1966-1970

Postby Jez » 2010 Mar 18, 05:42

'That' tackle really annoys me. yes, it was a great tackle, but it's not like there's never been anything like it since then. Not to take anything away from the Legend that is Moore but yeah. SPAM :roll:

Not sure about a raise in header, I don't think he was an 84. Maybe an 83 though
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Re: Bobby MOORE | 1966-1970

Postby zguc » 2010 Mar 25, 17:46

I think he deserve agility 80
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