zguc wrote:Ok, this is your conclusion and I do not agree with him... and you do not want to deviate from it ... But I just want to say that these statistics do not show the true value of Gordon Banks, may even agree to stay JUMP at 88 but AGI 84 is certainly not a value for him... his agility will always worth more than 84
I think you have totally wrong way of managing and determining the values of each player.. You think if a player is superb in each abilities, as goalkeeper in the DEF, RES, then the other values which are also at a high level should not have great value because you believe that the goalkeeper then was overrated... (how do you comment then Casillas who has RES 98 TS 77 ACC 80 JUMP 92!!!) Why do not rate the players exactly as it was really... Ok, Banks agility is not on level as DEF and RES in red value, but also not at such a low level.
Just one question? Do you really think that Zoff (92) was much better in the jump from the Banks?
and don't delete my posts...
As far as I saw Casillas is more agile then Banks (and I'm pretty sure at that since I watched over a 100 games of Casillas). I saw Banks 2-3 times pulling connected saves where he shows good agility, but it's somewhat incomparable to Casillas who reacts faster and who's really catlike when in comes to such extreme situations (and yes Casillas is very fast; I'm not familiar to all keepers from all leagues, so I really can't give precise estimate are those numbers correct, but comparing Casillas to other great modern keepers I'm pretty sure he's faster then them). On the other hand Banks was better at defensive positioning, more reliable keeper. Banks might not be that explosive but he didn't have the need to play like that, because he had excellent estimate how the ball is moving and where should he move in order to minimize danger from all kind of shots.
In no way I'm trying to underrate classic players. Actually I prefer to watch classic football, especially if my choice is between for example classic Milan game from the late 1980s and a match in current Italian league (no disrespect toward current Serie A, but I sometimes can't watch the game till the end, especially when both teams are playing to get a draw). Also, I think you're being a bit biased since Banks is your favorite keeper (your words, not mine).
Zoff's performances on 1982 WC were very good, but although he was still world class at 1982 WC, extremely secure keeper, I wouldn't give him Jump: 92
(but as I know his stats are 1972-1974, so considering that he was 40 at 1982 WC it's normal that his Jump deteriorated). On the other hand when I remember his games for Juventus during 1970s I must admit that he had better leap then Banks (I can't say 92 is precise until I check all the ladders, but his Jump was in orange area). Maybe, just maybe GK Skills: 97
are a bit overrated (but to stand behind this claim I would have to re-watch all his games, which isn't possible at the moment).
I won't delete any posts you made. I'm only joining 2, 3 or even 4 posts that are written one after another in short time, without any answer between them. It's against the rules to write 2, 3 or more posts in a row in one thread during short period of time. This does not apply just to zguc
, but to all users. When you want to add something, use Edit
button or re-post your previous post with things you forgot to mention.
I've tried to express all my thoughts clearly. I think I don't have much more to add to this subject.***
Plava Čigra wrote:Also, I always say that the most precise way is to compare players from the same Era (off course, using a players that are already updated and that are made by solid, reliable users).
What's the point here? In PES a player from the 70s would have no clear difference with a players of modern football? You're saying that someone who was the fastest back then, should be rated at the same levels of players like Cissé or Martins? Well, this logic is simply wrong.
Actually, I was not defending the value of 95
there, I was defending the high SP, which some people wanted to make it SMTH like 89
Although you need to adapt to the opinions of other people (that's what I read from a highly respected mod in here, no need to pronounce names) and that's why I don't want to show my obstinacy in every occasion and tend to agree when I'm wrong.
I guess you haven't read my posts about modern and classic football. If you want you can find them, but to sum it up my main point is that you can't compare classic and modern players just from modern perspective (if you do that you would have players that couldn't run more then 70 minutes in PES; for example you would have to assign Di Stefano Stamina no more then 85
, since he didn't run 12 km per game, but approximately >5 km which was incredible for his Era; if you assign Di Stefano such value, most of the players from that Era with normal Stamina would be on 70-78
level which is a bit silly, since they'll become unusable in PES). I'm gonna send you a pm as soon as I find thread(s) where I explained this.