D-Set Recycling


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Houy
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D-Set Recycling

Postby Houy » 2019 Apr 05, 15:58

Hi there,

in our effort to decisively move away from overrating/misrating stats i believe a thread specifically dedicated to recognizing the negative patterns, wrong standards and overly generous approach that we often see in sets that still pollute the database can be helpful. The idea for this thread is to take away useful conclusions and keep them in mind from now on, since there are many distinct and recurring reasons for these sets that go beyond one person making a wrong judgment about stats. Any post with the following format has to be made ONLY with detailed points and reasoning behind it and with the intention of being constructive.

The title refers to the D ranked Sets in the ranking we are implementing.

* A big worry i have is that this thread can be misconstrued or misused by others as a way to ''point the finger '' at mods for being bad stats makers, which is completely incorrect and not what the purpose of the thread is. My personal view on the current mods whose sets i'm aware of is that they know how to rate stats and are open to bettering their outlook with the more different cases of players they see, that is why they are trusted as mods and that is why this thread can be useful in the first place.


Let me give you some examples of the simple format i suggest be used. These are all sets the Greek league imported this year.

Current Set: Nikola Jakimovski
Spoiler: show
Club: AE Larisa
Positions: SB, WB, SM

Nationality: Macedonian
Age: 29 (26/02/1990)

Height: 187 cm
Weight: 77 kg

Injury Tolerance: B
Foot: L
Side: L

Attack: 69
Defence: 62
Balance: 80
Stamina: 80
Top Speed: 83
Acceleration: 77
Response: 72
Agility: 75
Dribble Accuracy: 77
Dribble Speed: 81
Short Pass Accuracy: 74
Short Pass Speed: 76
Long Pass Accuracy: 77
Long Pass Speed: 83
Shot Accuracy: 65
Shot Power: 82
Shot Technique: 66
Free Kick Accuracy: 75
Curling: 81
Header: 66
Jump: 70
Technique: 76
Aggression: 83
Mentality: 71
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 73

Condition/Fitness: 4
Weak Foot Accuracy: 4
Weak Foot Frequency: 3

ATTACK / DEFENCE AWARENESS: 3/2

SPECIAL ABILITIES:
★ Dribbling
★ Side

PLAYER INDEX CARDS:
P07 - Early Cross
P17 - Offensive Sideback
S13 - Step On Skills

Player description

Jakimovski plays at AE Larissa, a mid-table club in the Greek League. He has mostly been used as an LB but has also played as WB as the team also employs a 3-5-2 formation and also as one of the left of the three CBs on that formation, taking advantage of his height. Jakimovski has some good physical characteristics for his position that make him an option for different roles too. He is unusually tall for a SB and he has some good speed over distance. He is also decent technically, with a pretty trustworthy control and decent passing ability. As a defender he is very mediocre, bad tactically and often leaves holes for opposition to exploit, his decent speed and size something of a saving grace. In Attack he contributes sporadically, he is not a terribly dumb player and he is not particularly aggressive. When he goes up he can contribute with his solid crossing ability, he is also a solid set piece taker with an emphasis on his powerful shot.

Consider if the set matches the description and what you'd expect to see for a player who is not considered a solid starting option for a mid-table Greek club. Below is a more idealized set and some extra info on the player, how he compares to others and a possible cause for why he has been mis-rated .



Spoiler: show
Positions: SB, WB, SM

Nationality: Macedonian
Age: 29 (26/02/1990)

Height: 187 cm
Weight: 77 kg

Injury Tolerance: B
Foot: L
Side: L

Attack: 66
Defence: 57
Balance: 80
Stamina: 80
Top Speed: 79
Acceleration: 74
Response: 73
Agility: 70
Dribble Accuracy: 74
Dribble Speed: 76
Short Pass Accuracy: 72
Short Pass Speed: 73
Long Pass Accuracy: 77
Long Pass Speed: 79
Shot Accuracy: 65
Shot Power: 82
Shot Technique: 66
Free Kick Accuracy: 75
Curling: 74
Header: 66
Jump: 76
Technique: 75
Aggression: 74
Mentality: 70
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 64

Condition/Fitness: 4
Weak Foot Accuracy: 4
Weak Foot Frequency: 3

ATTACK / DEFENCE AWARENESS: 2/2

SPECIAL ABILITIES:
★ Side

PLAYER INDEX CARDS:
P07 - Early Cross
S13 - Step On Skills

In his current set Jakimovski is impressively well rounded, easily one of the best SBs in the Greek League. If you can set the following reasonable parameters in PSD's Stats Ranking / Ladder for the Greek league ( ATT: 68-99 DA: 75-99 DS: 80-99 LPA: 75-99 Agg: 80-99 Teamwork: 70-99 ) you get 7 players: 4 of the best attacking midfielders in the league, Fortounis, Biseswar, Diguiny and Pelkas, Jakimovski and Acosta and Orihuela ( i am not familiar with them, also this years' imports they play for the now relegated bottom club of the league ) . In the hopes of getting some SBs for the shake of comparison let's set Teamwork and Agg a little lower, let's also replace DS with TS to get fewer attacking midfielders ( same parameters, now no DS and Teamwork: 65-99 Agg 78-99 TS 80-99). Now we get 16 results, including Jakimovski, Orihuela and Acosta, also Barrientos and De Amorim who you will also see below. Now we get 4 SBs, Tsimikas and Koutris, two young Greek internationals who play for Olympiakos, Johansson who has been one of the 3 best performers of Panathinaikos this year, certainly one of the best SBs in the league and vieirinha probably the best player in the league that plays for Paok whose going to be champion in a couple of weeks. As you can see these aren't favorable comparisons to Jakimovksi and they don't correspond to this place in the league's SB ladder .

His club history
https://www.transfermarkt.com/nikola-ja ... eler/66613

So how did this set that seems so out of place come about ? Well, an explanation can be found if you look at the player's club history. Jakimovski has apparently never played for a top flight team apart from Serbia and Japan, furthermore aside from last year he has hardly played more than a 1000 minutes per season. The set was made in 2016, at the time he played for Benvento Calcio in Serie B tallying almost 400 minutes of play in the 2016/17 season. He had had 29 more games in Serie B from 2014 to 2016. The problem imo here is apparent, delving in making sets for the unexplored standards of a Second Division team. Since the very idea of Pes Stats by Konami has always focused on First Division football this was bound to lead to some misaligned ratings (especially if approached with a Serie A standard in mind ), in this case a bit too much i would say.


Current Set: Jean Barrientos
Spoiler: show
Positions: SM, AM

Nationality: Uruguayan
Age: 28 (16/07/1990)

Height: 173 cm
Weight: 69 kg

Injury Tolerance: B
Foot: R
Side: B

Attack: 75
Defence: 51
Balance: 76
Stamina: 82
Top Speed: 83
Acceleration: 83
Response: 78
Agility: 83
Dribble Accuracy: 83
Dribble Speed: 82
Short Pass Accuracy: 76
Short Pass Speed: 74
Long Pass Accuracy: 76
Long Pass Speed: 77
Shot Accuracy: 72
Shot Power: 80
Shot Technique: 75
Free Kick Accuracy: 73
Curling: 79
Header: 71
Jump: 72
Technique: 80
Aggression: 79
Mentality: 76
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 75

Condition/Fitness: 3
Weak Foot Accuracy: 5
Weak Foot Frequency: 5

ATTACK / DEFENCE AWARENESS: 3/2

SPECIAL ABILITIES:

PLAYER INDEX CARDS:

Player description

Barrientos plays at AO Xanthi, a mid-table club in the Greek League. He was one of the players brought in to spice things up in attack as the team hardly takes anything from their attacking midfield and wings, they have a good but inconsistent forward and are a notoriously defensive team. Barrientos is a fast and technical player, he can be mistaken for a winger and he's been used as one in at least half his matches in Xanthi but he has a clear preference to play centrally. He likes to move a good amount during a game but he doesn't adhere to tactics contribute defensively at all. One the ball and in general he is dumb, totally gutless and passive, hardly uses his skill to dribble or to pass though he is at the desired standard of the league for these skills. He primarily plays passes to the player next to him, on the other hand off the ball he likes to rally towards the box without a specific approach or manner. This is the only way he creates a bit of danger though and he is not bad with it, he actually looks to have understanding of how to play in these more advanced roles, much more than he does lower on the pitch. This constitutes his whole game though, he is an example of a totally inept player tactically that gives little to nothing to the team. He is probably going to have a small run in greece and go.



Spoiler: show
Positions: AM, SM, SS, WF

Nationality: Uruguayan
Age: 28 (16/07/1990)

Height: 173 cm
Weight: 69 kg

Injury Tolerance: B
Foot: R
Side: B

Attack: 69
Defence: 38
Balance: 69
Stamina: 77
Top Speed: 83
Acceleration: 83
Response: 75
Agility: 83
Dribble Accuracy: 81
Dribble Speed: 82
Short Pass Accuracy: 76
Short Pass Speed: 72
Long Pass Accuracy: 76
Long Pass Speed: 74
Shot Accuracy: 72
Shot Power: 77
Shot Technique: 73
Free Kick Accuracy: 68
Curling: 77
Header: 71
Jump: 72
Technique: 80
Aggression: 77
Mentality: 61
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 63

Condition/Fitness: 3
Weak Foot Accuracy: 6
Weak Foot Frequency: 5

ATTACK / DEFENCE AWARENESS: 3/1

SPECIAL ABILITIES:
★ Reaction

PLAYER INDEX CARDS:
Free Roaming

The current set ofcourse makes him the best winger in the league, only comparable to De Amorim ( coming up below ;) ) and only Podence comes close. Speed and technical stats are fairly accurate.

His club history
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/jean-ba ... ler/118413

Looking at his club history, Barrientos actually played some top flight football in Portougal between 2011 and 2014 for Vitória Guimarães. Beside that he's only played in the uncharted waters of his native Uruguayan league with only a small stint in Argentina. Paablito's comments on his thread certainly ring true atm but he wasn't downgraded at the time beside possibly a decrease in form, the missing piece to make him an all rounder. The set ofcourse is pure old standards, it was added in 2011 and was hardly touched since. It has survived for 8 years roaming around the DB, not a bad run right ?


Current Set: Lucas Boyé
Spoiler: show
Club: AEK Athens
Positions: CF, WF

Nationality: Argentinian
Age: 23 (28/02/1996)

Height: 180 cm
Weight: 80 kg

Injury Tolerance: A
Foot: R
Side: B

Attack: 75
Defence: 38
Balance: 84
Stamina: 78
Top Speed: 76
Acceleration: 76
Response: 76
Agility: 70
Dribble Accuracy: 82
Dribble Speed: 75
Short Pass Accuracy: 73
Short Pass Speed: 67
Long Pass Accuracy: 66
Long Pass Speed: 65
Shot Accuracy: 75
Shot Power: 84
Shot Technique: 72
Free Kick Accuracy: 62
Curling: 66
Header: 76
Jump: 83
Technique: 78
Aggression: 84
Mentality: 67
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 65

Condition/Fitness: 5
Weak Foot Accuracy: 4
Weak Foot Frequency: 4

ATTACK / DEFENCE AWARENESS: 3/1

SPECIAL ABILITIES:
★ Tactical Dribble
★ Post Player

PLAYER INDEX CARDS:

MOTION STYLE:


Player description

Boyé plays at Aek Athens, the current champion, 20 points behind first Paok at third place. He is on loan from Torino. He was meant to replace Lazaros who was one of the protagonists of the team last year but he's felt real short of that. His performances have been inconsistent ranging from non-existant to detached but decent. He is strong and has some decent speed over distance, his close control is really good and he has a strong shot. In game he mainly waits for the ball and when he gets it he's hardly aggressive or energetic. Aside from a couple of good halfs of a game he's contributed nothing of note. Frankly he doesn't really know how to play on the wings which makes some sense as apparently he played as a striker in Argentina. There were rumors of terminating his contract but that didn't happen and apparently there is a clause that binds the the team to give him a specific number of appearances or minutes which explains why he still starts often, playing over Albanis for example who was just voted Aek player of the month and has played very little.



Spoiler: show
Club: AEK Athens
Name: Lucas Boyé
Shirt Name: BOYE
Number: 31
Positions: SM, WF, CF

Nationality: Argentinian
Age: 23 (28/02/1996)

Height: 180 cm
Weight: 80 kg

Injury Tolerance: B
Foot: R
Side: B

Attack: 71
Defence: 38
Balance: 82
Stamina: 74
Top Speed: 78
Acceleration: 76
Response: 71
Agility: 75
Dribble Accuracy: 84
Dribble Speed: 77
Short Pass Accuracy: 74
Short Pass Speed: 68
Long Pass Accuracy: 66
Long Pass Speed: 65
Shot Accuracy: 71
Shot Power: 83
Shot Technique: 72
Free Kick Accuracy: 62
Curling: 66
Header: 76
Jump: 79
Technique: 79
Aggression: 78
Mentality: 63
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 65

Condition/Fitness: 3
Weak Foot Accuracy: 4
Weak Foot Frequency: 4

ATTACK / DEFENCE AWARENESS: 3/1

SPECIAL ABILITIES:
★ Dribbling

PLAYER INDEX CARDS:
P05 - Mazing Run
S02 - Outside Curve

Unlike the other two this set has already been updated. Before the update he was one of the best players in the league ( this happens an awful lot ), there isn't another Striker with that strength and DA, a consistent one at that with a powerful shot and jump for end product, something that as you can see below he doesn't really have. The one comparable player that shares many similarities with how he was originally depicted is Livaja who is one of the three best players in the league with Fortounis and Vieirinha and there is no comparison.

His club history
https://www.transfermarkt.com/lucas-boy ... ler/334222

His PSD thread

Unlike Jakimovski and Barrientos Boyé played 30 league games for Torino at the age of 20, most of them as a sub. There is also much discussion in his thread. Considering the set is from his time in Argentina it's apparent that he traded power for speed in his transition from CF to winger, which is the position he mainly played in his time in Torino and during his lone to Celta. So that would explain the difference between speed stats and BB. There is the very real possibility that he's stagnated and even got worse like a lot of young talents, especially since he might not have been ready for the move abroad and that is mentioned in the thread. There is also the fact that he is now playing for a championship team, which is demanding in any league but the counterargument to that is that he has already played for a mid-table Serie A team and the fact that he is hardly trying here anyway, he is lazy as hell. There is a huge disparity between the skill that he obviously possesses and what he actually contributes, even if he played in a an upper mid-table team he'd need a better attitude to be successful. The overrated stats in this set are specifically Att, Form, SA, Jump and Aggression. The first two are often discussed as stats to be rated with caution for a young player but overall i think their common theme is that they translate to a dangerous and effective player ( even if he is a more competent CF ? ). Considering his records at that point ( 2016 ) that should have raised some red flags ( and chamakh and Lucashag did point ti out ). Beside that the set passed from Italy and Spain without an update.


Current Set: William de Amorim
Spoiler: show
Club: AO Xanthi
Number: 91
Positions: WF, SM

Nationality: Brazilian
Age: 27 (15/12/1991)

Height: 180 cm
Weight: 70 kg

Injury Tolerance: B
Foot: R
Side: L

Attack: 76
Defence: 52
Balance: 76
Stamina: 84
Top Speed: 86
Acceleration: 82
Response: 77
Agility: 80
Dribble Accuracy: 82
Dribble Speed: 78
Short Pass Accuracy: 77
Short Pass Speed: 75
Long Pass Accuracy: 78
Long Pass Speed: 77
Shot Accuracy: 74
Shot Power: 78
Shot Technique: 72
Free Kick Accuracy: 70
Curling: 76
Header: 68
Jump: 70
Technique: 80
Aggression: 80
Mentality: 70
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 68

Condition/Fitness: 6
Weak Foot Accuracy: 4
Weak Foot Frequency: 4

ATTACK / DEFENCE AWARENESS: 3/2

PLAYER INDEX CARDS:
P07 - Early Cross
P09 - Incisive Run
S13 - Step On Skills


Player description

De Amorim plays at AO Xanthi like Barrientos. He is a wide forward, decently well rounded with some good speed a good first touch and passing. Admittedly he has played only 260 minutes so this is mostly based on first impressions but again he is the best winger in the league apparently so this demands some attention. There is the chance he is out of shape so that might still explain the low energy he's displayed up to now which would be in the mid 70s. Can't say that he has been overly eager in his games up to now but he participates in the game from the wings, he likes to dribble though his control of the ball is very basic. He is also capable of playing some adventurous passes without much effort



Spoiler: show
Club: AO Xanthi
Number: 91
Positions: WF, SM

Nationality: Brazilian
Age: 27 (15/12/1991)

Height: 180 cm
Weight: 70 kg

Injury Tolerance: B
Foot: R
Side: L

Attack: 73
Defence: 52
Balance: 76
Stamina: 76;
Top Speed: 81
Acceleration: 81
Response: 74
Agility: 79
Dribble Accuracy: 76-77
Dribble Speed: 80
Short Pass Accuracy: 77
Short Pass Speed: 75
Long Pass Accuracy: 78;
Long Pass Speed: 77
Shot Accuracy: 74
Shot Power: 78
Shot Technique: 72
Free Kick Accuracy: 70
Curling: 76
Header: 68
Jump: 70
Technique: 80
Aggression: 80
Mentality: 70
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 72

Condition/Fitness: 3
Weak Foot Accuracy: 4
Weak Foot Frequency: 4

ATTACK / DEFENCE AWARENESS: 3/2

SPECIAL ABILITIES:
Dribbling

PLAYER INDEX CARDS:
P09 - Incisive Run
S13 - Step On Skills

Like with Barrientos there is no other winger like him in the league with his current set. No other player with that combination of Att, DA, TS and Sta and form 6 to boot. That's the one thing i had to change on the spot, he seems like a form 3 atm but that might be that he needs his time to adjust. Also let me add that a green Att winger is a very rare sight at this level, atm there's only Spiridonovic, Podence, Shikabala, Mounier, Gama, Lazaros. Now a green Att winger that's neither injury prone, has good stamina and is consistent is like a shiny pokemon at this level. And that's sad !... but it's the truth. Podence is the closest thing, maybe if you cheat and count Vieirinha too. De Amorim hasn't been bad, unlike Barrientos i could see him as an ok starter for the level of the team.

His club history
https://www.transfermarkt.com/william/l ... ler/203087

The problem here is like with Boyé the set is good but with certain key stats. It's reasonable that he has lost speed and Sta over time, according to our logs the set has only seen a small adjustment in 2016 since it's creation in 2013 and the player himself had been having full seasons with good numbers up until the 2016/17 season. Considering the Romanian League hasn't been getting many updates for a while now, William could have had a big drop in his career in the last year and there wasn't someone there to see it and make the update. Regardless the very high Sta and Form allude to old standards which make since as the set is from around the end of that period. I'd like for us to pay some attention to DA because i see this so often in wingers. Typically speed dribblers or player with good agility that just get paired with yellows DA like it is a prerequisite for them to be able to dribble. It's not, in Amorim's case his control is ok but average and he loses the ball very often because of it.


Current Set: Marios Oikonomou
Spoiler: show
Club: AEK Athens
Number: 4
Positions: CB

Nationality: Greek
Age: 26 (06/10/1992)

Height: 189 cm
Weight: 85 kg

Injury Tolerance: B
Foot: R
Side: R

Attack: 63
Defence: 79
Balance: 86
Stamina: 79
Top Speed: 74
Acceleration: 72
Response: 77
Agility: 69
Dribble Accuracy: 70
Dribble Speed: 72
Short Pass Accuracy: 73
Short Pass Speed: 71
Long Pass Accuracy: 72
Long Pass Speed: 74
Shot Accuracy: 58
Shot Power: 81
Shot Technique: 64
Free Kick Accuracy: 62
Curling: 65
Header: 84
Jump: 82
Technique: 71
Aggression: 64
Mentality: 75
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 75

Condition/Fitness: 5
Weak Foot Accuracy: 5
Weak Foot Frequency: 5

ATTACK / DEFENCE AWARENESS: 2/3

SPECIAL ABILITIES:

PLAYER INDEX CARDS:

Player description
Oikonomou plays for Aek Athens. He is a strong defender though not too dominant, he is also not too slow for his height. As a defender he is composed and can be quite decisive but he is not good at keeping up with his backline so he is quite hit or misss overall. There isn't much about him otherwise. He doesn't expend too much energy, his ability in attack is mediocre and the main way he contributes is thought he occasional long pass.




Spoiler: show
Club: AEK Athens
Number: 4
Positions: CB

Nationality: Greek
Age: 26 (06/10/1992)

Height: 189 cm
Weight: 85 kg

Injury Tolerance: B
Foot: R
Side: R

Attack: 57
Defence: 74
Balance: 83
Stamina: 76
Top Speed: 74
Acceleration: 74
Response: 77
Agility: 71
Dribble Accuracy: 68
Dribble Speed: 68
Short Pass Accuracy: 68
Short Pass Speed: 70
Long Pass Accuracy: 72
Long Pass Speed: 75
Shot Accuracy: 58
Shot Power: 77
Shot Technique: 64
Free Kick Accuracy: 62
Curling: 65
Header: 76
Jump: 77
Technique: 69
Aggression: 65
Mentality: 72
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 65

Condition/Fitness: 4
Weak Foot Accuracy: 5
Weak Foot Frequency: 5

ATTACK / DEFENCE AWARENESS: 2/3

SPECIAL ABILITIES:

PLAYER INDEX CARDS:

He was signed on loan from Bologna and was recently bought by Aek for 700k. He hasn't been terrible but considering he was expected to essentially replace Vranjes he is not what everyone hoped for. How far away from the top the team is from last year is in part because of the transition from the best defensive duo in the league, Chygynskyi and Vranjes to Oikomou and Cosic because of Chygry's constant injuries. Suffice it to say it was a point of contempt from fans especially during the team's recent big game run. The set generally overstates his abilities. He is not a top defender in the league, the only defenders with 79 Def or more are Risvanis, Vuković,Chygynskyi and Varela. There is also Khacheridi but that's up for discussion. The only CBs with Teamwork over 75, a skill Oikonomou is particulary weak in, are Chygrynsikyi, Risvanis and Vukovic, Khacheridi ( again up for discussion ) and Moras, Zisopoulos and Fliskas, old experienced defenders without much else to go on at this point. Oikonomou is not a very dominant player in the air, he has also scored 3 headers in his career, one of them just the other day and the other two in 2014. 84 Header and 82 jump is way over the top, though when we discussed his update with Stavrello i had checked out the headers and they were very nice. H e has shown nothing special in his time here.

His club history
https://www.transfermarkt.com/marios-oi ... ler/174488

Like with Jakimovski the set was made at his time in Serie B in 2014, he was 21 year old at the time. In this case though Bologna made it to Serie A and Oikonomou had two seasons with a good number of appearances in the first division but went on loan and didn't feature much in his third, last year. I was aware of the set during the time since he had games with the NT and didn't quite look the part, i can't say if this set was just badly rated or misrated and forgotten about.


One last thing. This is Chuba Akpom . He is currently the starter CF of Paok ( four games away from winning the league undefeated) after Prijovic's sale, he is not really getting the goals in but contributes in many other ways. He's an example of a modern striker that needs to improve in his end product to become the full package. A competent striker with these physical characteristic and decent dribbling stats easily makes the difference in the Greek League. Here is Dominique Malonga and Salim Cissé, they play in the Greek Second Division without great success , that might sound as some sort of purgatory to most unknowing fans that watch football at a good level. Thankfully, i have no standards, and i can responsibly tell you that it's shit. More importantly do you notice a similarity?

Last edited by Houy on 2019 Apr 08, 07:10, edited 1 time in total.
vinnie
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Re: D-Set Recycling

Postby vinnie » 2019 Apr 07, 23:35

i think this is a very helpful thread concept, something i've had in mind for quite some time. I think the kinds of comparisons, observations, and resultant corrections you make are very sensible- from my outside point of view on these players at least. I agree with your general premises.
If you don't put effort into your post, i won't put effort in my response.
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Re: D-Set Recycling

Postby Oriello » 2019 May 09, 03:44

Houy wrote:A big worry i have is that this thread can be misconstrued or misused by others as a way to ''point the finger ''
I think any mod who tries to rate outside the norms they are used to will struggle to get it right immediately when making sets for players in non-top tier league.

I can simply point to the TFC team I made for 2017 - the CONCACAF section was really outdated (still is) - but many of the issues you noted with players imported to Greece were present in the players floating untouched for years in CONCACAF, EPL level sets. So I had no barometer to gauge what is a high Attack/Defence value in respect to everyone else in MLS. Originally I made a player like;

viewtopic.php?f=188&t=39338&p=584698&hilit=tosaint#p584698 2017 version Tosaint Rickettes (still have to "freeze" an updated version with Attack 70 and some things touched down), this was my first run at making him. In 2017 he was very useful as a supersub - even when not scoring he changed the front dynamic - and scored 8 goals in 24 matches, you can see how few minutes he played though https://www.football-lineups.com/footballer/49393/ (it omits domestic cup games).

I had watched all the videos I could find for free of him in match highlights from Turkey, Norway and some other lower leagues of Europe that he was a journeyman through - never really was potent scorer, 9 goals in 28 matches was his best with Bucaspor.



viewtopic.php?f=30&t=38969&p=580330&hilit=tosaint#p580330 Current Tosaint Rickettes, this was after worse season, 2018 he was far more erratic and less useful - and could not be relied upon despite the large injury crisis giving him more minutes initially (would struggle with injury himself).

Currently he is in Lithuanian top division and has 6 goals in 8 games (league & cup)


Point is that since I have made more players for MLS I have better been able to calibrate where a player is along the good-bad spectrum and better rate them for that level.

I know jurgens does not like us "testing" things, but simply in PES having full teams with more appropriate stats lets me as a video game player tell how effective someone is in game, even with seemingly shit ratings, viewtopic.php?f=1302&t=41168&p=596550&hilit=azira#p596550 Azira - useful DMF for Montreal in game and also in real life....


As before I was playing in PES against teams with;
viewtopic.php?f=1305&t=28724&p=420856&hilit=Perry+Kitchen#p420856 Perry Kitchen - I seen a little of him last season, but enough to know he is not this good, this season he is on the bench/injured.

He stood out in game, because he was dominating the midfield and winning balls, making solo runs and scoring screamers - it was pissing me off so god damn much - since irl he is not American Steven Gerrard. I doubt he is any better than Azira as a DMF overall - might have different qualities - but both have similar level of impact on the game.



Terrence Boyd viewtopic.php?f=1297&t=29306&hilit=boyd came to TFC from Bundesliga II - this guy is nowhere near these stats, he has not been touched since 2014 - which Eternal Night did well to lower a bunch of his stats. Boyd did in 2010-13 score crazy amounts of goals but it was in Regionalliga West with Borussia Dortmund II (20 goals / 32 games) and in Austrian Bundesliga with Rapid Wien (37 goals / 80 games) - so long ago he was great, but at 4th level of German football and slightly worse in Austrian top level. He was at that time getting some appearances for USA National Team, I can see whoever originally made him maybe struggled to place him, since Austrian Bundesliga is not fully fleshed out, neither Regionalliga West from Germany, so it can be really difficult to make a good set appropriate for his level, if what you mostly deal with for example is Serie A/Bundesliga.

Boyd needs Attack 67 or so, but I need to see more to decrease other stats, but to me he is way less effective at doing anything than Rickettes was.



I think as we make more sets for some more obscure leagues, we can get a better sense of who is great or just decent in that league. I think for some of the players I see floating around CONCACAF it was often an issue of lack of context when making a player, more of the "eco-system"/league you fill out, you can better make sense how low you can truly go with some stats and that player still is effective at that level. So when players are made for example a single club in Austria or Cyprus, its difficult to really peg them - maybe a bit easier if they play CL/Europa League.

The Overalls vinnie is sewing will helps us better to ballpark/tier players in general. Think the more data we have - and time to sort through it - we can fix/re-calibrate/recycle D-Sets to something more appropriate.
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Houy
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Re: D-Set Recycling

Postby Houy » 2019 May 11, 14:10

Oriello wrote:I think any mod who tries to rate outside the norms they are used to will struggle to get it right immediately when making sets for players in non-top tier league.


Oriello wrote:Point is that since I have made more players for MLS I have better been able to calibrate where a player is along the good-bad spectrum and better rate them for that level.


Oriello wrote:I think as we make more sets for some more obscure leagues, we can get a better sense of who is great or just decent in that league. I think for some of the players I see floating around CONCACAF it was often an issue of lack of context when making a player, more of the "eco-system"/league you fill out, you can better make sense how low you can truly go with some stats and that player still is effective at that level. So when players are made for example a single club in Austria or Cyprus, its difficult to really peg them - maybe a bit easier if they play CL/Europa League.


Establishing a thorough league ladder ( and keeping it updated ) for each stat makes updates a lot more efficient since you can place a player, updated or a newly added one, at a certain spot with a small margin of error since you have a reliable comparison equal to, higher or lower you can consult. So yes the more players you introduce and tinker and compare and reconfigure the more polished and reliable a league standard will become, assuming you know what you are doing. With the Greek league there was an existent template by Bitz and Stavrello that we could expand upon and rework, so having a solid starting point made things a lot smoother than they'd have been without. Regardless it takes an incredible amount of time and not having a starting point to accustom yourself to and figure out would be like having no solid ground to stand on at the start.. You have my sympathies :D

The single clubs without a league thing has puzzled me for a long time too, because they are by definition at least a little out of context, and addressing them would need to be different than how we do any player within a league setting.

Oriello wrote:I know jurgens does not like us "testing" things, but simply in PES having full teams with more appropriate stats lets me as a video game player tell how effective someone is in game, even with seemingly shit ratings, viewtopic.php?f=1302&t=41168&p=596550&hilit=azira#p596550 Azira - useful DMF for Montreal in game and also in real life....


As before I was playing in PES against teams with;
viewtopic.php?f=1305&t=28724&p=420856&hilit=Perry+Kitchen#p420856 Perry Kitchen - I seen a little of him last season, but enough to know he is not this good, this season he is on the bench/injured.

He stood out in game, because he was dominating the midfield and winning balls, making solo runs and scoring screamers - it was pissing me off so god damn much - since irl he is not American Steven Gerrard. I doubt he is any better than Azira as a DMF overall - might have different qualities - but both have similar level of impact on the game.


A criterion i've had forever is based on the sense i got as i prefer taking a smaller team like Leganes or Nantes playing Master League, that a difference maker ig is a player that's just a little above the norm in any single stat, primarily physical. So once you got a player like Kitchen to replace your over-performing but lovably flawed DM because what else are you going to do with your money, using him almost felt like cheating. Because of how easy and efficient he was to accomplish any task with his speed and barely green DA and Barely 70s Def. I think that's just because the game makes it so you just don't need a ''Kitchen'' to do well given the context you are playing in even in a top tier league. I am using your example to say something slightly different but you take this idea and apply it to a smaller league and see how this kind of player should rarely exist. Setting Sta/TS>80 DA/DS>75 and Def >68 as parameters using the Greek League as an example you get no result in the search, because that makes for a very versatile player, solid to move on the ball and efficient dispossessor. Add form 6 to inflate the stats on occasion, TW so the player reaches outside his position even a lot on occasion and Jump/SP and that just makes goals ig whatever his position.

Oriello wrote:The Overalls vinnie is sewing will helps us better to ballpark/tier players in general. Think the more data we have - and time to sort through it - we can fix/re-calibrate/recycle D-Sets to something more appropriate.


Yes i'm looking forward to the new overalls, this thread is something more like an analog record in comparison, for us to glance at and maybe consider something that wasn't apparent already.

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