Zbigniew BONIEK | 1983-1984/1986-1987/1981-1982/1977-1978

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Zbigniew BONIEK | 1983-1984/1986-1987/1981-1982/1977-1978

Postby Oriello » 2008 Dec 11, 22:31

Nickname: "Zibì" (difficult to pronounce Zbigniew in Italian) | "Bello di notte" ("Beauty at night") (because of his performance at evening matches.)

Image

Club: Juventus




INFO:

Simply a wonderful footballer.

Boniek had many attributes deadly pace, guile, determination, technical skill. Who could head, shoot, pass all in very good measure. Best defined as a 'hard working-attack minded footballer', rather than as a 'great winger' or 'playmaker'. In essence a player too good to be left out of any starting eleven, yet not specially outstanding at any particular role as to solely command that position in a star-studded team.

This uncertainty as to Boniek's most effective position was first seen both at Łódź and with Poland where he would be flitted between midfield and attack. For country even tasked as the central playmaker, but clearly more inclined and better suited to be a clinical forward. After his stunning hat trick against Belgium in the 1982 World Cup, Pelé himself stated this, that a player such as Boniek needs to be unleashed and his talent should not be confined and limited to a role in midfield.

Juventus manager Giovanni Trapattoni had been keen on Boniek ever since he had ran them ragged in a 1980 UEFA cup match, but it was not until just prior to the 1982 World that the 1.1 million pound move to Turin would be completed. Boniek and Platini were brought in as the final pieces in what was to be an all-conquering Juventus team. However, things started off slowly, both Boniek and Platini were surprised at the demands of the Italian game, and of the infamous Italian sports media, and both expressed their concerns over tactics and formations. By the 2nd part of the season Trapattoni had changed things around slightly and Boniek, Platini, Rossi and Bettega had formed a formidable attack. Boniek's adaptability in attack caused a large dilemma as to his optimum role, eventually he would be settled as 'left winger', while in reality was liable to float across the entire attack. Always ready to make one of his incisive runs to meet a Platini long ball that had just shattered an offside trap, or come deep to create-dribble-and link up to devastating effect.

Gianni Agnelli the late owner of Juventus famously nicknamed him "Bello di notte" or 'Beauty of the night", in reference to Boniek's knack of putting on scintillating displays and scoring important goals in European Cup matches, which were always held in the evening. Boniek indeed had a wonderful ability to raise the level of his performances in vital matches and was very much a 'big game player'.


VIDEOS:



LINK to 25 Goals from Juventus, some already highlighted in the top 10 video, but some other good ones too.


***

Name: Zbigniew Kazimierz Boniek

Image

Club: AS Roma
Number: 4
Position: *CMF, AMF, DMF, CWP, CB
Nationality: Polish _pol
Age: 30-31 (13/03/1956)
Era: 1986/1987

Foot: R
Side: B

Height: 181 cm
Weight: 76 kg

Attack: 80
Defence: 70
Balance: 80
Stamina: 90
Top Speed: 84
Acceleration: 86
Response: 86
Agility: 83
Dribble Accuracy: 90
Dribble Speed: 87
Short Pass Accuracy: 85
Short Pass Speed: 79
Long Pass Accuracy: 86
Long Pass Speed: 77
Shot Accuracy: 78
Shot Power: 86
Shot Technique: 82
Free Kick Accuracy: 75
Curling: 77
Header: 81
Jump: 80
Technique: 91
Aggression: 85
Mentality/Tenacity: 87
Goalkeeper Skills: 50
Team Work: 87

Injury Tolerance: B
Form/Condition/Fitness: 7
Weak Foot Accuracy: 7
Weak Foot Frequency: 7
Consistency: 6
Growth type: Late Peak

CARDS:
P06: Speed Merchant
P10: Box to Box
P13: Long Ranger
P17: Free Roaming
P18: Extra Attacker
S02: Passer
S05: 1-touch Play
S06: Outside Curve

SPECIAL ABILITIES:
*Dribbling
*Tactical Dribble
*Passing
*Middle Shooting
*1-Touch Pass
*Outside

Attack/Defence Awareness Card: Balanced


INFO:

Heysel had a traumatic impact on Boniek's outlook on football and life, "Football meant so much to me but after that tragedy I began to see the game in another perspective... things were different after that final."--"Seeing so many people losing their lives when they had come to enjoy a game of football was unacceptable for me". Like many of the players that evening Boniek himself had not been aware of the full extent of what had transpired prior to the match, and voiced his disgust afterwards that the match had gone through.

At the end of that season, perhaps needing a change of atmosphere, Boniek headed to The Eternal City, Sven-Göran Eriksson brought him in as a direct playmaking replacement for the outgoing Falcão. Boniek now approaching 30 had begun to lose his lethal pace, Eriksson recognized his tenacity, tireless engine, and battling qualities were better utilized in the centre of the pitch, a testament to the abilities of Boniek that he could be shifted into an entirely new role so seamlessly, in some incidents he was even utilized as an emergency centre half when there was a crisis on the availability of defenders. Boniek's tactical astuteness even afforded Roma the luxury of fielding him in a sweeper's role in his final season. Despite being moved ever farther from goalmouth action, Boniek actually exceeded his goal return for the Giallorossi, then what he had managed with Juventus.

"Il capocannoniere del campionato sara' il giocatore che avra' come compagno boniek" -- Michel Platini
'The top scorer of the championship will be 'the player who' has Boniek as a team-mate'


VIDEOS:




***

Name: Zbigniew Kazimierz Boniek

Image

Club: Widzew Łódź
Number: 20 (National Team)
Position: *AMF, SS, CMF
Nationality: Polish _pol
Age: 25-26 (03/03/1956)
Era: 1981/1982

Foot: R
Side: B

Height: 181 cm
Weight: 75 kg

Attack: 84
Defence: 46
Balance: 79
Stamina: 85
Top Speed: 85
Acceleration: 89
Response: 84
Agility: 82
Dribble Accuracy: 83
Dribble Speed: 87
Short Pass Accuracy: 82
Short Pass Speed: 82
Long Pass Accuracy: 82
Long Pass Speed: 80
Shot Accuracy: 78
Shot Power: 87
Shot Technique: 84
Free Kick Accuracy: 73
Curling: 77
Header: 80
Jump: 79
Technique: 86
Aggression: 80
Mentality/Tenacity: 74
Goalkeeper Skills: 50
Team Work: 80

Injury Tolerance: B
Form/Condition/Fitness: 7
Weak Foot Accuracy: 7
Weak Foot Frequency: 6
Consistency: 5
Growth type: Late Peak

CARDS:
P07: Mazing Run
P11: Cut Back Pass
P13: Long Ranger
P16: Dummy Runner
P17: Free Roaming
S01: Reaction
S05: 1-touch Play
S06: Outside Curve
S16: One-footed Roulette

SPECIAL ABILITIES:
*Dribbling
*Tactical Dribble
*Reaction
*Side
*1-Touch Pass
*Outside

Attack/Defence Awareness Card: Attack Minded


***

Name: Zbigniew Kazimierz Boniek

Image

Club: Widzew Łódź
Number: 18 (National Team)
Position: *AMF, CMF, SS, SMF
Nationality: Polish _pol
Age: 21-22 (03/03/1956)
Era: 1977/1978

Foot: R
Side: B

Height: 181 cm
Weight: 75 kg

Attack: 79
Defence: 46
Balance: 79
Stamina: 85
Top Speed: 86
Acceleration: 88
Response: 83
Agility: 82
Dribble Accuracy: 82
Dribble Speed: 86
Short Pass Accuracy: 78
Short Pass Speed: 75
Long Pass Accuracy: 79
Long Pass Speed: 78
Shot Accuracy: 78
Shot Power: 86
Shot Technique: 77
Free Kick Accuracy: 70
Curling: 77
Header: 76
Jump: 79
Technique: 82
Aggression: 84
Mentality/Tenacity: 76
Goalkeeper Skills: 50
Team Work: 85

Injury Tolerance: B
Form/Condition/Fitness: 7
Weak Foot Accuracy: 7
Weak Foot Frequency: 7
Consistency: 5
Growth type: Late Peak

CARDS:
P11: Cut Back Pass
P13: Long Ranger
P16: Dummy Runner
P17: Free Roaming
S05: 1-touch Play
S06: Outside Curve

SPECIAL ABILITIES:
*Dribbling
*Tactical Dribble
*Middle Shooting
*1-Touch Pass
*Outside

Attack/Defence Awareness Card: Attack Minded


HONOURS:

Polish champion: 1981, 1982
Italian champion (Runner Up): 1984, (1983, 1986)
Coppa Italia: 1983, 1986
Euorpean Cup (Finalist): 1985, (1983)
Cup Winners' Cup: 1984
European Super Cup: 1984
Polish Footballer of the Year: 1978, 1982
Ballon d'Or (Third): (1982)


ADDITIONAL LINKS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Boniek

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Boniek

http://www.planetworldcup.com/LEGENDS/boniek.html

http://www.world-football-legends.co.uk/boniek.php

Last edited by Oriello on 2011 Apr 28, 06:22, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1982-1983/1986-1987

Postby Oriello » 2009 Feb 02, 00:13

List of changes;

Attack +2 --Was not exclusivley reliant on brilliant positioning but needs the boost to better escape markers which he did very well.
Defence -2 -- Was most likely influenced by the little I seen from the 86 WC where he was a libero, but I belive he was more offense oriented when younger, but still a solid player when played in the midfield.
Balance +1 -- Problems arise from him being a diver, but he did seem to have a set of strength when he decided to battle it out.
*Top Speed*-- Alright I know that 95 is incredibly fast and there is the unfortante effect of the red numbers being exponential in growth, but from the matches I did see what struck me most about him was his unbelivable pace once he got to top gear, he needed space to build a head of steam and was hampered often by opponents going tactical on juve and mobbing the midfield and defense, so he was limited often on unleashing himself at full force, but comparing him to some other classic players values and what I seen of them, I reluctantly think 96 is acceptable, if only it was not in PES a +2-3 point raise I would be 100% behind it, now I am 70%, :P, well I would like another person to agree with my evaluation and then I will update it to 96, otherwise 95 is still awesomely good.
Free Kick Accuracy -2 --maybe at Roma he displayed this, but For juve I only remeber him putting in a set piece as a cross in one of the matches.
Header +2 -- Definately better than some others rated simlarily on the previous 78 that I have seen.
Aggression -11 -- Yikes, I "sort of" misinterperted this stat XD, I attributed it to him being like a bullet on the ball in that many times once he got the ball all he did was go forward like tsunami were after him. But on learning more since then and have the pleasuer of watching some extended Juve 80's highlights (stil recovering from multiple orgasams, from the incredible passing moves Platini and co made XD) he did not hang in the box waiting for the play to unfold, which unfortuantely the high aggression was doing to him, coupled with the reaction star he should still dash at some oppurtunities, but will be more relaxed overall and 'playmake' a bit.
Mentality -2 -- 'Never-say-die' attitude and battled for balls, but I think I may have gone a bit to high looking at modern ladders and him being over Ambrosini, opps. :P But should be no lower, as part of it must go to his phenominal ability to play awesome in important matches, he always raised his performances for when it mattered.


NOTE Roma Boniek needs serious attention!

I will try to clean up some areas to fit the 'idea' of Boniek playing as a DMF, but I have not seen him, these stats are a bit of a love child between me and as_10 that sort of came out like an abomination XD.

Most likely not accurate, anyone who has seen anything of him at Roma when he was DMF/libero please comment.

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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1982-1983/1986-1987

Postby Oriello » 2009 Oct 14, 03:55

Added two vieos I stumbled upon recently that highlight his awesomness. :lol:

Man that took over half an hour for me to figure what the hell was going wrong :evil: , It kept popping up with 'Your message contains too few characters'. Turns out you cannot have three 'youtubed' videos in one post (sorry as_10 tried with that hat trick vid you had :| )

Also aded a new Roma picture, old one had bad link - new depicts Zibi with his best pal Platini, both best buds in one sense and another, appearently the two had a reputation for hiding out behind the bleachers during practice sessions from Trappatoni and lighting up a few cigarettes to ease some worldy stress. :lol:

Anyways I also dropped Shot Pwer -1 and have been pondering over Response at 88 :? awefully high-well not too awefully...ahh well I think could do with a drop, I was originally entertaining to 85, but then he would only be +1 above both classic and current Kaka - well Boniek was simply better than him in this regard than 1 measly point (reading anticipation, pouncing on loose balls), Classic Nedved sits at an 88 which makes me wary of going too low...damn it input anyone? 87 perhaps level with prime Gullit at the moment? Both players who were ataackers but molted into sweepers by the end of their careers, similar type of reading of play then? Sorry just not overly familiar with Gullit to know if would be a good realignment.

Also in one of those vids he is taking another Freekick, and I seen one before at juve and it was not that one..but both were service free kicks not shooting attempts, but still considering he became a taker in Rome (a shooting one) - so the skill was there in raw form undeveloped - I think a slight increase back (yes I had lowered not long ago from a low 70 value :roll: :lol: ) to a 72ish, if only for the sake that the CPU picks him to take some set pieces when Platini might be out.

EDIT

I must point out again anyone wishing to comment or suugest values for Roma Boniek please do not feel afraid to post your thoughts - as he curently is clearly not rated correctly...if no one posts I will just make a general update/revaluation to what I belive he played like at that time in his career. NOTE I know very little of him at rome, but just looking at him so weirdly rated for a CMF (with a preference for *side :lol: ) I just need to flesh him out better than the second set that is there.

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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1982-1983 & 1986-1987

Postby Classical » 2009 Oct 15, 23:26

I would be extremely interested to help you to make a revision to Boniek's stats.

I would based my perceptions based almost on the above videos, which let me say, are amazing I never sae them!!

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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1982-1983 & 1986-1987

Postby Oriello » 2009 Oct 17, 02:59

Good. :)

I hope you were referring to the Roma set though, as that is the one that needs the work ;) (The juve one I am just playing around with Response now - after which I might lock it and throw away the key..figuratively speaking..uh writing.. of course, as I think it is rated well). The vids highlight his goals at juve mostly, except for the last three or four in the first one vid - So not sure how much more can be ascertained from them.

But it will be nice to bounce some ideas of you. I will see if I can draft something up tommorow and PM you., :)

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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1982-1983 & 1986-1987

Postby Oriello » 2009 Nov 06, 23:20

General update for Roma Boniek, but also added *Outside for Jventus version.

Here is some idea/impression swapping me and Classical had to reach our conclusions - but the stats are still open for commenting. ;)

Oriello wrote:Ok first I like to mention I will be listing some modern players as compariosns via ladders to get a good approximation and sense of him, and I will be listing players from EPL, sERIE a, La liga, and the Bundesliga - I am most familiar with Serie a but I have seen the others in some moderation and will add the laddered numbers where I think they are correctly indicative of a stat, I do this too as I am unsure what leagues you yourself watch Classical so I hope I am able to highlight to you where my mind is on some attributes and numbers. ;)

Boniek 1986-1987

Position: CM*, DM, AM, SM, CWP --Remove SM not sure he played this at Roma - I read/heard by the age of 30 he was generally just confined to the centre of the pitch, instead I might give him CB as I did read besides being a sweeper in his final season when Roma experienced shortages of defenders due to injury/suspensions he would be played there..no idea how well he preformed though - maybe a bit like Riise used his athletic side to make up for any tactical short comings. Do you think a few appearances as CB justifies the position? CWP is there despite only playing that in his final season not the 1986-1987 this set is made for..so on a timeline basis I think ic can be present.

Length: 181
Weight: 75>>77 -- Found several internet sources (not the most reliable place of information :D) that give him 77, which I believe for this era as he looks just that bit more thicker - in his thighs for one, in Juve he had a real gazelle like build to him - and I sort of doubted the 75 I found for his time there, looked a light 70 high 60 or 68-72 kg player then. Anyways just would like to know if you think this would be a valid change - important to know since weight apparently now factors into things like speed :? and body balance.

[/b]Attack: 83>>80[/b] - level with Perrotta (who has *Positioning) and Ze Roberto, +1 point above Xavi and Sneijder and -1 point below Diego, Ballack, Pires. For Roma his goal return actually surpassed what he managed at juve despite being played further away from scoring oppurtunities - so I think that might indicate he still retained his 'intelligence' in this category so I do not want to take him below an 80, but to align him better to a CMF ratio I think the Attack needs a decrease. Besides I think he developed a more regular shot from distance which may have been a source of his goals?

Defence: 68>>70-72 -- Surely if Pirlo gets a 69(current stats) and 70 in Classic set, then a player who was fielded as a backup centreback can be better in this regard. I do not want to travel too high up the ladder as at 74-75 truly good/world class CMF's exist; de Rossi, Ze Roberto, Thiago Motta, Palombo, Lee Carsley, who have defensive competence I have seen from a DMF/CMD position - at juve he was similar to Nedved in his defensive efforts hence the mid 60 value. Gerrard is at 71 and Darren Fletcher (very solid) 72. Thoughts?

Balance: 81>>80 -- Well I know you mentioned a 89-90 level in his thread, I assume for the Juventus version - or for both? Well I am unsure if he became supremely stronger from his juve days in Rome, but I will first list some players who have comparitive Height and weight(sometimes); 81; Mutu (180, 75), Bernard Mendy (180, 75), Kryznowek (180, 73), Aguero (172, 74)[a shorter player who has demonstrated very good strength often]. At 80; Blasi (179, 73), Agbonlahor (178, 79), Stilian Petrov (180, 77), Xabi Alonso (183, 77) and Ribery (173, 67)!![A very strong winger - I think overall comparable to Boniek at Juventus - I mean not just in balance but in abilities].

Stamina: 91 -- I know he had very strong engine at juve, I am confident that he did not lose too much of his energy - especially in a more demanding box to box role. The most I could see this going down to is a 89/90. Some modern comperatives; 91: Ballack, Albelda, Puyol//90: Senna, Hitzlsperger, Darren Fletcher, Tim Cahill, Grella, Lampard, Cambiasso, Sissoko//89: Jimmy Bullard, Jermaine Jenas, Jermaine Jones, Tinga, Aldo Duscher.

Top Speed: 85>>81-82 -- No where near as fast as he once was, seen bits of him at the 86 world cup but definately slower - maybe the mexcian summer heat was getting to him. :? Against ladders; 82: Perrotta (178, 72), Chivu (184, 81), Schweisteiger (181, 77), Ze Roberto (172, 72), Capdevilla (182, 78). ANd at 81; Stankovic (181, 75) -- jeez this makes me think 82 would be low enough :lol:, Hitzlsperger (183, 80), Kryznowek (180, 73).

Acceleration: 87>>86 -- Though in that highlight vid I posted he lookded to have retained some of his sprintiness, could get that inital critical first few steps on more average players that would carry him through a run. Against ladders; Lovenkrands (180, 75), Jovetic (183, 79), Mesut Ozil (182, 73).

Response: 83>>86 -- 83 Is a good average, but nothing too special, I would think a player as tactically capable as Zibi was would have to have a world class or near that level Reading/Response value. I decided to change his Juve version from an 88 to a 86 against modern ladders - and I think that value would still stand good for this era, he would be above a Javier Zanetti at an 85 but below de Rossi at 87, sitting level with Gattuso, Nocerino, Senna, Mascherano, Gerrard.

Agility: 82 -- Seems fine I cannot imagine he got nimbler in Rome with age.

Dribble Accuracy: 92>>88-90 -- The elegant Beckenbauer has been brought down to a 90, Thus I think boniek cannot be over him here. At juve he had the capacity to just kick the ball ahead and blaze after it, but in tight spaces he could do wonderful minor touches that would create all the room he needed to keep possesion, clearly in Rome with his loss of pace I would think he would have relied on this ablity more than ever, though I am unsure if he kept to the same level and those two minutes of highlights are difficult to go on. Ladder wise where would he sit well(?): 90: Iniesta, 89: Hleb, Robben, Valeron, van Persie, Camoranesi, 88: Prilo, Giovinco, Totti, Henry, Joaquin, Santi Carzola, Rosicky. -- From these numbers I think players like Hleb and Camoranesi would be a step above, maybe I am just remembering too much of their good times/peak years as surely both were rated higher several years ago? So does an 88 seem fair?

Dribble Speed: 84>>87 -- This in view of his lessened Top Speed I think can go up as it is somewhat visible that he generally still kept a good speed with the ball at feet and at an 82ish Top Speed a 87 for Dribble Speed I think would be okay. Does this ssem good to you?

Short Pass Accuracy: 84 -- Did he get better? The current set has *Passing which might improve the throughballs anyways, not sure about the star or the rating for this. Ideas?

Short Pass Speed: 81 -- Where his passes just that bit more easy to intercept than a few years earlier? Was 84 at juve...

Long Pass Acc.: 85 -- Again did he improve in his accuracy, I have no idea.

Long Pass Speed: 78 -- At the same time lose his passing range? Maybe bring this up to 82-83 like the juve version?

Shot Accuracy: 75>>76-77 -- Well, well, well the dreaded shooting stats - did he retain a good finish infront of goal? Were his long range efforts well placed or did they rely on power? Well lets consider players that have *Middle Shooting star and are fair shooters who get among goals each season; 76: Borowski, Kryznowek, Senna, Nakamura, Arteta, Montolivo. At 77; Cristian Ledesma, Fabregas, Aquilani, Geovanni, Xabi Alonso, Xavi. Boniek got 7 and 4 goals in the league in his first two seasons at Roma as a CMF/DMF and in his final year as a Sweeper he scored 6 times. So does a 77 seem alright?

Shot Power: 88>>87-86 -- recently changed juve version from 88 to 87 - not sure he got more powerful, plus he will have *Middle Shooting which will improve the overall qaulity of long range efforts, not sure he needs to be at Stankovic levels. de Rossi, van Bommel, Borowski are all at this 87 level. Maybe an 86 like Frings, Trochowski, Maniche, Xabi Alonos, Essien, Vieira?

Shot Technique: 82 -- I think he could probably keep this, seen that lttle neat swivel finish at the end of the highlight vid, would be level with Ballack and below a player like Nakamura and Robert Pires and Scholes.

Free Kick Accuracy: 75 -- He became a taker at Rome, just those grass cutting rockets into bottom corners I think rather than some sort of sweet executioner - I could be wrong as I have not seen many of his goals for Roma, also not entirely sure he scored them - do not really want to lower it, yet there is no justification for a raise.

Curling: 74>>77 -- His curling was not his greatest feature - in shots or crosses - but at 74 he is at Molinaro levels :|(if your not familiar with him then let me tell you he sucks major shit at crossing and curling), so I think we should put him up to at least his younger standard.

Header: 82 -- Again..? at 82 Keita, Vieira, Baptista, Essien, Kuyt, Ibrahimovic and at a younger rating of 80 Puyol, van Bommel, Borowski, Scholes, Cordoba. What do you think, keep the 82 or put him back to waht I rated the juve version, at an 80?

Jump: 78 -- did he lose -6 points?

Technique: 91 -- seems okay, not sure he lost his quality touch with age, in the vid there were some neat bring downs nothing exemplary but still I really do not want lower just because a 2 min vid lacked some extraordinary takedowns, he was afterall regarded as very technically astute player. At this level it would be equivalent to Fabregas, Rosicky, van der Vaart and below -1 Diego and Pirlo.

Aggression: 82>>84-85 -- hmm I think due to him being played deeper I might just go with more Aggresion then when he was a SS, as I stated before more goals than at juve ratio wise, but from deeper locations!? So I think it may be fair to assume he invloved himself a fair bit into the attack. Also looking at the formations of those seasons despite Ancelotti being played higher up the pitch than him, I think he would have been tasked to do more of the dirty work while the more skillful Boniek would have been given liscenec to attack at will to support the lone striker Pruzzo. Here are some links to Roma formations of 1985-1986, 1986-1987, 1987-1988

Mentality: 85>>[b]87[/b] -- Did he lose any of his work ethic and fight of years earlier? Especially seeing as this would have been one of the reasons hw was moved into the centre of the park in the first place due to that grit he could have to him. So level with his younger version also level with current Frings, Sissoko, Nocerino.

Keeper Skills: 50

Team Work: 83>>88-90 -- From 90 to 83 :?, His passes may not have been anything extraordinary but his link up at juve was exemplary - his awarness and thoughts on how the game flowed were really probably only bettered by Platini at juve, did he diminsh so greatly - if so why did Sven Goran Eriksson bring him in for the outgoing Falcao as the 'playmaking' replacment'? Modern ladders state; 88: Iniesta, Kaka, Flamini, Gattuso, 89: Deco, 90: Lampard, Arteta, Scholes, Pizarro, Valeron, Tymoshcuk, 91: Gerrard, Cambiasso. What do you tyhink Classical?

Injury Tolerance: B

Condition/Fitness: 7

Weak Foot Accuracy: 6>>7 -- He lost his almost two footedness when he got too Rome? :P

Weak Foot frequency: 5>>7

ADD Consistency: 6/7 -- This was missing, not sure which value, did he maintain his high standards with Roma? Roma's finishes for his three seasons were 85-86 2nd(almost won the title that year after a great resurgence late in the season) and Coppa Italia winners, 86-87 7th place, 87-88 3rd place. Not sure how much we can gather out of this - or indeed anything at all from this on how well Boniek himself performed over the three season duration. Thoughts, average 6 for player who are not too outstanding throughout a season can fade sometimes in a match as well, or a 7 - a great level of continuity?

*Dribbling -- Not sure how much he still ran right at defences at age 30, might still be a viable star if his Teamwork remains high, he will not neceisarrily do unnaturally complicated runs through teams by the COM or something - really not sure, but....

* Tactical Dribbling -- ADD this IF *Dribbling remains, as really if he did one he did the other, at least at juve that would be true, might decide to tear through himself or just dirbble and take a bunch of opposing players for a light jog around the park before passing it off to a teammmate.

*Reaction -- This is definate for his younger version, excellent at making thos runs from deep, at Rome? I really do not nkow if this would keep with his style - did he make runs off the ball into the box from CMF/DMF ? I suggested Aggression to 84/85 to keep him going high up the field, but coupled with this star it might be overkill - yet he may still be deserving of it - maybe he did make killer runs through defnsive lines still? Ideas??

*Passing -- A Konami default, I am not sure if he concretly deserves this, was he a master with killer through balls at Roma? I know it was stated that Eriksson brought him in as a 'Playmaking replacment' but I am unsure if that necessarily qualifies him for either *Passing *Playmaking star. So REMOVE or KEEP?/ or ADD *Playmaking instead (will not have outright as a lethal effect, he will not make too many killer balls but just regulate the teams tempo - which by what I evaluate his Teamwork levels at I think he very well could do, but was he a specialist modern day Liverani, Pizarro, Xabi, Xavi?

*Middle Shooting -- I think this is okay, he started scoring great long range goals at a young age, check out at 6:00 min 1978 World Cup is his World Cup debut match against Mexico he scored an absolute precision guided missle, though he was not overly prone to shooting from distance at juve - hence why I avoided the star, due to the frequncy matter.

*Side -- REMOVE - again not sure even his juve version should have this - when he was actually played out wide! As the star is for a tendancy to stick to the touchline or for central players to move out wide from centre positions.

*1-touch pass -- ?Agian not sure if he lost the ability for an odd well struck volley.?

One other thing, about *Outside I seen Konami gave this to him as default star, where they prehaps correct? I did not notice him using the outside of his feet frequently in open play, but those vids do highlight several instances where he used it quite clinically - yet my minor problem is that in my PES 5 he already uses the outside of his right foot due to his 92 technique (I think) very effectively - so does he need the star? I do not really consider him a specialist (like Cameorenasi or Quaresma), or should any player who has the showcased some of that ability get it (like Ballack)?



So what do you think Classical, do not feel obligated to write a long response if you do not wish to - I just want to see if this would pass your inspection ;). Also I hope you will not mind but I will post this PM and any follow up communication we have via PM into a post in Bonieks thread once I make the update - just so everyone can see where you and me were coming from when we reordered his stats. :) I think it may also help anyone in the future wishing to suggest something to get an idea where we stand and they can balance their suggestion accordingly.


Classical wrote:That's an impressive answer you got here, dear Oriello:

Let's try to see, from my side, if I can get my own perception about Zibi's Roma time:

Weight: I found 76kg in http://www.zerozerofootball.com/player/ ... fault/5740

Positions: Since there is no CWP in the new game you could put CB refering his role as a Libero. Also you will find there is a new card speciially to defensive players who start the attacks and have an attack oriented mind.

Attack: Good ladder fiting. Agree
Defence: 70 to set below Gerrard and Fletcher, Pirlo level.
Balance: Ribery can stand it pretty well. Boniek can sit there at 80. (please note once again I never wanted to put him at those higher values...)
Stamina: 90 seems ok
Top Speed: He still looks faster than all of those. 84/85 here...
Acceleration: And the accelaration should be one or two points above the TS.
Response: 86 world level response for a CMf is a very good value and fitable with mentioned players. Agree
Agility: 82 might do the trick, even if here I would put him higher at Juve's days, which consequently would be higher as well at Roma's days.
Dribble Accuracy: Very nice logic, this proportional inversion. But you can't put below 90 if you stick at Juve with 90. Juve's days he won't be as good as current Iniesta - my perception here - so from his point we could setup a checkpoint.
Dribble Speed: The 87 makes him run pretty well but not with the pace of before. Agree
Short Pass Accuracy: You could raise one point here in reduce 2 in speed. This is the usual kind of edit we do while seting up inteligent players who got older. A bit too basic but kind of makes sense.
Short Pass Speed: Same as above.
Long Pass Accuracy: We could still apply the same logic of short passing, it depends on how we see it as a valid interpretation.
Long Pass Speed: Once again same as above.
Shot Accuracy: I think even if playing in a more defensive position if you had the touch you don't loose it like that. I would let him keep a splendid value of 78 since he is better than the ones you mention.
Shot Power: Here you can put him like the 86 guys you mention.
Shot Technique: yes, agree.
Free Kick Accuracy: unless we find stated goals, this is not that important.
Curling: same as a above
Header: seeing ladders, maximum 81 here
Jump: he can easily loose 4 points. 6 probably is too harsh.
Technique: 91 is more than perfect, he is below diego but at the same level as rosicky
Aggression: nice job on getting those line ups, but can you explain me (if agression is the stat that shows how a player goes for the attack, wild runs and only with his mind on the goal) why do he has only 83? I might be missing something here...
Mentality: He probably shapened himself into a fighter with technique and perceptuion. I go with your value.
Keeper Skills: 50
Team Work: 87 for me here.

At Roma keep the passing, also keep the outside. He looked the xeriff of that town.

:D

Come back at me whenever you want, I am very happy helping you with Boniek.


Oriello wrote:Okay so I have bolded the values we have agreed upon, and underlined some points I want to clarify before I update him.

Position: CM*, DM, AM, CWP, CB -- Well I have yet to play the new PES2010 and I would like to leave sweeper in for those people who might still play the older versions at is a viable option then.

Weight: 76 -- Good that you linked an actual source, also noticed that they list his height at 182, but I generally found him at 181-182cm, so I think 181 is fine but I will up the kilos to 76.

Attack: 80
Defence: 70
Balance: 80 -- Okay sorry about the misunderstanding, I guees you were responding to the banned posters.
Stamina: 90
Top Speed: 84 -- Okay 81-82 on second thought (Stankovic on 81 really made me second guess myself) seems a bit low, but at 85 he would remaine at a level with some really speedy players like Hleb (185, 74), Podolski (182, 83), Forlan (180, 75), Higuain(183, 75). So I think the 84 looks better - he will still be a fast player but will not be able to bypass others as readily - even thouhg it is one measly point..:lol: :P
Acceleration: 86
Response: 86
Agility: 82>>83? -- Well what would you suggest for him at his juve peak? I thought the 83 was a fair assesment as he has a sort of blocky nature in his running - a bit difficult to describe, but he looks sort of 'un-graceful' or akward in the way his movements come off when he dribbles - it looks like he naturally is not a very agile player. Also I noticed in his dribbling efforts he would rely more on clever footwork or a quick burst of pace rather than a twisty turny approach like even an old Del Piero might use nowadays.
Dribble Accuracy: 90 -- A bit confused on your viewpoint here, so let me see if I understand you; he cannot be lower than his juve version of 90 at Roma. OK? And the wording of this last part confused me very much; "Juve's days he won't be as good as current Iniesta - my perception here - so from his point we could setup a checkpoint." - So, current Iniesta is at a 90 - so do you think juve Boniek should be below 90?
Dribble Speed: 87
Short Pass Accuracy: 84>>85 -- So +1 point here and...
Short Pass Speed: 81>>79? -- Take -2 points from the speed to make it a 79?
Long Pass Acc.: 85>>86? -- And if we use the same logic as short passing then long pass speed will...
Long Pass Speed: 78>>76? -- Drop to 76? That seems pretty low, will not this not only reduce the range of his passing but also make it far easier to intercept long high balls? Maybe something like 77 minimum, equivalent to Beckenbauers LPS - who was known to lob accurate balls around his own vicinity rather than any cross field passes.
Shot Accuracy: 78 -- Agree.
Shot Power: 86
Shot Technique: 82
Free Kick Accuracy: 75
Curling: 74>>77 -- Well curling does influence a few other areas besides FK - of which the two or three I seen him setup for and attempt(2 for Poland and I think it was him in a Roma clip I seen), he did Gerrard like shots for the corner of the nets - with power and no curl - but I meant his curling would still be important for Long Passes or any set piece delivery (corner, long fk) it would affect the quality of thos passes. So I still think he can be level with his juve self here.
Header: 81
Jump: 80
Technique: 91
Aggression: 82>>84-85 -- Well I assume you are reffering to the juventus version? Well I had him higher before (86-88 I do not remember) but lowered the number to 83. It is simply that when he is played as a SS he remains in too advanced positions in PES than what he would do at juve, I would have dropped this value even lower than 83 if he only played as an SS to make him play more authentically, but because he was also used as pseudo SMF at juve this would have taken him too much out of the action up front. Notice that his juve version has *Reaction - which will allow him to make aggressive sprints/runs off the ball in hopes of being put through on a long through ball or make late runs into the box from deep - if he had been left behind in the play (Combined with his 90 teamwork and 86 response he will also be very effective at these runs). Those things he did - but in general he would often come deep to help build play or help out defensively - at too high an aggresion value at a position like SS he would become too poacher like - which was not his game style at all. I placed his Aggression for Roma higher as he only plaed in midfield there, and played deeper, so I think he needed that bit more to force him up higher in PES. In those formations I linked you he was being played behind Ancelotti! The more typical DMF.
Let me try to illustrate what I mean in this (main positions underlined);
Juventus; Bonieks positions: *SS*, SMF, AMF, WG - AGG 83
-------------GK---------------
-------------CWP-------------
--------------CB---------------
---------------------------SB-
-WB----------DMF------------
--------------CMF-------------
--------------AMF------SMF------
-----WG-------SS-------------
--------------CF--------------
He is already being played high up the pitch and is easily placed to be invloved int the attack, *Reaction will make him do damaging runs both early in developing plays and late into box if he was deeper on a developed play.

Roma; Bonieks positions CMF, DMF, CB, CWP, AMF - AGG 84-85
-------------GK---------------
-------------CWP-------------
--------------CB---------------
---------------------------SB-
-WB----------DMF------------
--------------CMF-------------
--------------AMF------SMF------
-----WG-------SS-------------
--------------CF--------------
Being played much deeper - to maintain around the same invlovemnt in attack he needs a higher aggression value then from what he had being played higher up at juve. Also we are possibly removing *Reaction to eliminate that feature that we know only for sure he showcased at juventus.

Sorry to resort to trying to literally illustrate my idea, but I think it best gets my view across on why I choose that Aggresion value. :)

Mentality: 87 -- Intreseting stats I found Classical at http://www.myjuve.it Boniek in his 81 Serie A Matches with juventus recieved 41 yellows and two 2 reds! :lol: this guy was more brutal than Nedved who in 247 league matches got 43 yellows 3 reds. More or less the same position, I have no idea if he carried that streak over with him when he was told by Eriksson to be a DMF/CMF. :lol: Looks like he liked to get in on all parts of the game in equal measure :D - and get very dirty at the same time.
Keeper Skills: 50
Team Work: 87 -- Agree then.
Injury Tolerance: B
Condition/Fitness: 7
Weak Foot Accuracy: 6>>7 -- No disagree?, going to raise this to his younger standards then.
Weak Foot frequency: 5>>7
Consistency: 6 -- I will be conservative and add only a 6 in this category.

*Dribbling -- So KEEP this?
*Tactical Dribbling -- If we keep *Dribbling then I would like to ADD this to offset any singleminded dribbling in PES.
*Reaction -- REMOVING
*Passing -- KEEP instead of prehaps replacing with *Playmaking? Just want to be definate. ;)
*Middle Shooting
*1-touch pass -- KEEP?
*Outside -- I will add this to his juventus version too then, not sure he just learned this ability magically when he travelled south.

So Classical it is okay if I post our PM conversation in Bonieks thread once I make the update? To let all users see how we came to our conclusions.



Anyways I got told to fudge off by Classical and just post the stats already and have any discussion by all members to better attune them. So the underlined stats in the final quoted PM are still in question; Agility, DA, SPA, SPS, LPA, LPS, Aggresion, *The stars potentially, more so *Passing.

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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1982-1983 & 1986-1987

Postby Classical » 2009 Nov 17, 11:38

Hello there :D

No more postings yet ?

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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1982-1983 & 1986-1987

Postby as_10 » 2009 Nov 17, 17:13

Classical wrote:Hello there :D

No more postings yet ?

Be patient, poeple's still finishing to read Oriello's post. :lol:

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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1982-1983 & 1986-1987

Postby Oriello » 2009 Dec 08, 04:59

Classical wrote:Hello there :D

No more postings yet ?

To be expected Classical, until you posted a short time ago no one wanted to comment on the stats. That is fine as I understant not everyone has had the chance to see Boniek at Roma or even at all. But maybe people fear me and that if they criticise my awesome stats I will make a reprisal of such a lengthy post that an any attempt to even to begin to read it will break their will to live, the soul then shrivelling at the sheer wordiness of my post will escape their bodies and the empty husk that remains will collapse unto itself into the void, family and friends shall wonder at and eventually mourn their passing from this plane of existence.

as_10 is most likely right, people wanted to comment but they started to read the last post and simply perished in the attempt.


:lol: ;)

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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1982-1983 & 1986-1987

Postby sencesor » 2009 Dec 08, 15:32

:lol: ;)

"Buy the ticket - take the ride" - Dr. Raoul Duke - Pure Gonzo journalism.
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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1982-1983 & 1986-1987

Postby Oriello » 2010 May 17, 20:57

Seems either Brezza or Plava had already updated first post to new format - thanks guys. I have just added a 1977/1978 set from WC performances, the primary position may be wrong as I believe I read he was a 'forward' with Widzew, or rather SS/AMF hybrid player, but in the WC since Deyna was the focal point AMF, young Boniek played as a deep creative CMF - not really box-to-box like with Roma, just a deep distrbutor - even in the opening 1982 WC match against Italy he played as a 'regista' according to Italian commentary. But for Club he scored like a forward in Poland so I am guessing he did not play so deep for club.

Forgot to add a neat quote to first post, editing again...

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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1982-1983 & 1986-1987 & 1977-1978

Postby jeanclaude » 2010 Jun 11, 09:32

(Boniek 1982/83) IMO a little bit less in passing,and 82 in BB,86 in AGI

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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1982-1983 & 1986-1987 & 1977-1978

Postby Oriello » 2010 Jun 29, 21:29

On passing did you have any values in mind? I can agree with slight drops - his capacities as a passer defenitely grew with age, as the current 1982 set is more correlating to abilities at juventus (1982-1985) - as watching him thus far at 1982 WC (group stage) he is being a jerk face and could see many of his abilities drop - maybe even a fourth set might be required now, seeing there is a 1982 Polish team, specifically tailored for those performances. But I am getting ahead of myself.

In general on passing if a drop were to come, being totally critical even of his later juventus performances, then maybe SPA 83, SPS 80-79 - a good decisive passer but not at any exceptional range, and LPA 83, LPA 82 on the cross level with Kasperczak and for deep midfield passes similar to Schweinsteiger, though slightly less paced. Do those seem good by you jeanclaude? Or did you have other figures in mind?

On BB to 82...I know he was strong on feet - but him being one to take a 'fall' for the team was not unheard off - and at an 82 he really would be a bit much no? For myself Deyna (180 cm/77kg) at 82 was stronger of the two. Though I see classic Nedved is rated at an 81 and he too like Boniek was one to look for the tactical foul - I suppose Boniek could be equal to the Czech as he did not seem weaker. Since Nedved has 177cm/69kg then I guess Boniek could be 80 BB, any more and players like Deyna/Lato needs to go up to maintain a visible distance, who were to me clearly superior in BB than Boniek.

Agility 86 is too much I believe, Boniek was not really a twist turny as an 86 would indicate, to quote my PM to Classical;
I thought the 83 was a fair assesment as he has a sort of blocky nature in his running - a bit difficult to describe, but he looks sort of 'un-graceful' or akward in the way his movements come off when he dribbles - it looks like he naturally is not a very agile player. Also I noticed in his dribbling efforts he would rely more on clever footwork or a quick burst of pace rather than a twisty turny approach like even an old Del Piero might use nowadays.


If Agility were to go up to that level, then I think things like TS/ACC DA/DS would need to be leveled down - otherwise ho would be too much of a terror in game, a bit beyond his actual capacities.

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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1982-1983 & 1986-1987 & 1977-1978

Postby Falco » 2010 Sep 15, 04:38

Just an anecdote... I ones heard he had a little friendship with Pope Johannes Paul II, ja ja ;)

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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1982-1983 & 1986-1987 & 1977-1978

Postby Oriello » 2011 Apr 28, 06:14

Oriello wrote:maybe even a fourth set might be required now, seeing there is a 1982 Polish team, specifically tailored for those performances. But I am getting ahead of myself.
....And I have now caught up to myself - 1982 set posted.

He either was playing very much within himself during the World Cup or having just been acquired by juventus in a very expensive move, was under orders by the bosses to arrive injury/fatigue free for the new season, because he had a really poor tournament upon viewing him through 6 matches - 4 goals and sparks of quality - but largely on cruise control (Poland at times were essentially playing a man down in how uninterested Boniek appeared).

The set still has []Long Ranger but no *Middle shooting, as I understand the card is a frequency thing - so he could still claim it as he tried a few from out far, but he was just..abysmal.



I have changed all the sets 'Growth Type' to Late Peak - as in 1982 he looked nothing of what I seen from some juve matches of few years later. I have downloaded some juve league and europe matches and hopefully by the end of the summer go through them (note taking) and make a fine tuned adjustments.

Changed the description a bit - redacted the maradonesque bit. :mrgreen:

Classical I have also downloaded 1986 WC matches of Poland (beginning to go through them) - and a single Roma/Milan mnatch circa 1986/1987 so I shall take notes on our guesstimated 1986 set and see if changes should be made. ;)



Falco wrote:Just an anecdote... I ones heard he had a little friendship with Pope Johannes Paul II, ja ja ;)
I read that Boniek organized a side trip to the Vatican just before to 82 World Cup, and the entire Polish team met the Pope - this also got him and some other people in trouble as the communist authorities disapproved (backdrop was that solidarity movement opposing the Polish state - the Pope supported this union - that's right kids, Ronald Reagan and Pope John Paul II took on communism and won! That's why one of them is becoming a saint. ;) :lol:


EDIT
Ah Brezza, I changed the Topic name to "1983-1984/1986-1987/1981-1982/1977-1978", as using the regular "1983-1984 & 1986-1987 &..." format meant I could not fit all the dates, the webpage simply wont allow me to type more in.

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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1983-1984/1986-1987/1981-1982/1977-197

Postby Classical » 2011 May 11, 09:40

Oriello big postings poster :D

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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1983-1984/1986-1987/1981-1982/1977-197

Postby kuer86 » 2013 May 11, 13:48

higher attack?

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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1983-1984/1986-1987/1981-1982/1977-197

Postby blumbas » 2013 May 12, 06:33

All sets need update ;)

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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1983-1984/1986-1987/1981-1982/1977-197

Postby Brezza » 2013 May 12, 15:22

Not really, this one of the most comprehensively dissected sets on the site thanks to the brilliant Oriello. I'm Just going to tweak his prime set to a few newer standards.

Edit: Video showcasing his pace: Konami gave him red ds which could also be an option.



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Re: Zbigniew BONIEK | 1983-1984/1986-1987/1981-1982/1977-197

Postby stewie3 » 2013 May 21, 21:35

I would say his prime set is pretty good. However his Shot Accuracy and Shot Technique are definitely too high. He was never much of a goalscoring/finishing type off player(at least not this good) and I feel that with these value he would be way too potent at goalscoring.

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