Oriello wrote:Ok first I like to mention I will be listing some modern players as compariosns via ladders to get a good approximation and sense of him, and I will be listing players from EPL, sERIE a, La liga, and the Bundesliga - I am most familiar with Serie a but I have seen the others in some moderation and will add the laddered numbers where I think they are correctly indicative of a stat, I do this too as I am unsure what leagues you yourself watch Classical so I hope I am able to highlight to you where my mind is on some attributes and numbers.
Position: CM*, DM, AM, SM, CWP --Remove SM not sure he played this at Roma - I read/heard by the age of 30 he was generally just confined to the centre of the pitch, instead I might give him CB as I did read besides being a sweeper in his final season when Roma experienced shortages of defenders due to injury/suspensions he would be played there..no idea how well he preformed though - maybe a bit like Riise used his athletic side to make up for any tactical short comings. Do you think a few appearances as CB justifies the position? CWP is there despite only playing that in his final season not the 1986-1987 this set is made for..so on a timeline basis I think ic can be present.
Weight: 75>>77 -- Found several internet sources (not the most reliable place of information ) that give him 77, which I believe for this era as he looks just that bit more thicker - in his thighs for one, in Juve he had a real gazelle like build to him - and I sort of doubted the 75 I found for his time there, looked a light 70 high 60 or 68-72 kg player then. Anyways just would like to know if you think this would be a valid change - important to know since weight apparently now factors into things like speed and body balance.
[/b]Attack: 83>>80[/b] - level with Perrotta (who has *Positioning) and Ze Roberto, +1 point above Xavi and Sneijder and -1 point below Diego, Ballack, Pires. For Roma his goal return actually surpassed what he managed at juve despite being played further away from scoring oppurtunities - so I think that might indicate he still retained his 'intelligence' in this category so I do not want to take him below an 80, but to align him better to a CMF ratio I think the Attack needs a decrease. Besides I think he developed a more regular shot from distance which may have been a source of his goals?
Defence: 68>>70-72 -- Surely if Pirlo gets a 69(current stats) and 70 in Classic set, then a player who was fielded as a backup centreback can be better in this regard. I do not want to travel too high up the ladder as at 74-75 truly good/world class CMF's exist; de Rossi, Ze Roberto, Thiago Motta, Palombo, Lee Carsley, who have defensive competence I have seen from a DMF/CMD position - at juve he was similar to Nedved in his defensive efforts hence the mid 60 value. Gerrard is at 71 and Darren Fletcher (very solid) 72. Thoughts?
Balance: 81>>80 -- Well I know you mentioned a 89-90 level in his thread, I assume for the Juventus version - or for both? Well I am unsure if he became supremely stronger from his juve days in Rome, but I will first list some players who have comparitive Height and weight(sometimes); 81; Mutu (180, 75), Bernard Mendy (180, 75), Kryznowek (180, 73), Aguero (172, 74)[a shorter player who has demonstrated very good strength often]. At 80; Blasi (179, 73), Agbonlahor (178, 79), Stilian Petrov (180, 77), Xabi Alonso (183, 77) and Ribery (173, 67)!![A very strong winger - I think overall comparable to Boniek at Juventus - I mean not just in balance but in abilities].
Stamina: 91 -- I know he had very strong engine at juve, I am confident that he did not lose too much of his energy - especially in a more demanding box to box role. The most I could see this going down to is a 89/90. Some modern comperatives; 91: Ballack, Albelda, Puyol//90: Senna, Hitzlsperger, Darren Fletcher, Tim Cahill, Grella, Lampard, Cambiasso, Sissoko//89: Jimmy Bullard, Jermaine Jenas, Jermaine Jones, Tinga, Aldo Duscher.
Top Speed: 85>>81-82 -- No where near as fast as he once was, seen bits of him at the 86 world cup but definately slower - maybe the mexcian summer heat was getting to him. Against ladders; 82: Perrotta (178, 72), Chivu (184, 81), Schweisteiger (181, 77), Ze Roberto (172, 72), Capdevilla (182, 78). ANd at 81; Stankovic (181, 75) -- jeez this makes me think 82 would be low enough , Hitzlsperger (183, 80), Kryznowek (180, 73).
Acceleration: 87>>86 -- Though in that highlight vid I posted he lookded to have retained some of his sprintiness, could get that inital critical first few steps on more average players that would carry him through a run. Against ladders; Lovenkrands (180, 75), Jovetic (183, 79), Mesut Ozil (182, 73).
Response: 83>>86 -- 83 Is a good average, but nothing too special, I would think a player as tactically capable as Zibi was would have to have a world class or near that level Reading/Response value. I decided to change his Juve version from an 88 to a 86 against modern ladders - and I think that value would still stand good for this era, he would be above a Javier Zanetti at an 85 but below de Rossi at 87, sitting level with Gattuso, Nocerino, Senna, Mascherano, Gerrard.
Agility: 82 -- Seems fine I cannot imagine he got nimbler in Rome with age.
Dribble Accuracy: 92>>88-90 -- The elegant Beckenbauer has been brought down to a 90, Thus I think boniek cannot be over him here. At juve he had the capacity to just kick the ball ahead and blaze after it, but in tight spaces he could do wonderful minor touches that would create all the room he needed to keep possesion, clearly in Rome with his loss of pace I would think he would have relied on this ablity more than ever, though I am unsure if he kept to the same level and those two minutes of highlights are difficult to go on. Ladder wise where would he sit well(?): 90: Iniesta, 89: Hleb, Robben, Valeron, van Persie, Camoranesi, 88: Prilo, Giovinco, Totti, Henry, Joaquin, Santi Carzola, Rosicky. -- From these numbers I think players like Hleb and Camoranesi would be a step above, maybe I am just remembering too much of their good times/peak years as surely both were rated higher several years ago? So does an 88 seem fair?
Dribble Speed: 84>>87 -- This in view of his lessened Top Speed I think can go up as it is somewhat visible that he generally still kept a good speed with the ball at feet and at an 82ish Top Speed a 87 for Dribble Speed I think would be okay. Does this ssem good to you?
Short Pass Accuracy: 84 -- Did he get better? The current set has *Passing which might improve the throughballs anyways, not sure about the star or the rating for this. Ideas?
Short Pass Speed: 81 -- Where his passes just that bit more easy to intercept than a few years earlier? Was 84 at juve...
Long Pass Acc.: 85 -- Again did he improve in his accuracy, I have no idea.
Long Pass Speed: 78 -- At the same time lose his passing range? Maybe bring this up to 82-83 like the juve version?
Shot Accuracy: 75>>76-77 -- Well, well, well the dreaded shooting stats - did he retain a good finish infront of goal? Were his long range efforts well placed or did they rely on power? Well lets consider players that have *Middle Shooting star and are fair shooters who get among goals each season; 76: Borowski, Kryznowek, Senna, Nakamura, Arteta, Montolivo. At 77; Cristian Ledesma, Fabregas, Aquilani, Geovanni, Xabi Alonso, Xavi. Boniek got 7 and 4 goals in the league in his first two seasons at Roma as a CMF/DMF and in his final year as a Sweeper he scored 6 times. So does a 77 seem alright?
Shot Power: 88>>87-86 -- recently changed juve version from 88 to 87 - not sure he got more powerful, plus he will have *Middle Shooting which will improve the overall qaulity of long range efforts, not sure he needs to be at Stankovic levels. de Rossi, van Bommel, Borowski are all at this 87 level. Maybe an 86 like Frings, Trochowski, Maniche, Xabi Alonos, Essien, Vieira?
Shot Technique: 82 -- I think he could probably keep this, seen that lttle neat swivel finish at the end of the highlight vid, would be level with Ballack and below a player like Nakamura and Robert Pires and Scholes.
Free Kick Accuracy: 75 -- He became a taker at Rome, just those grass cutting rockets into bottom corners I think rather than some sort of sweet executioner - I could be wrong as I have not seen many of his goals for Roma, also not entirely sure he scored them - do not really want to lower it, yet there is no justification for a raise.
Curling: 74>>77 -- His curling was not his greatest feature - in shots or crosses - but at 74 he is at Molinaro levels (if your not familiar with him then let me tell you he sucks major shit at crossing and curling), so I think we should put him up to at least his younger standard.
Header: 82 -- Again..? at 82 Keita, Vieira, Baptista, Essien, Kuyt, Ibrahimovic and at a younger rating of 80 Puyol, van Bommel, Borowski, Scholes, Cordoba. What do you think, keep the 82 or put him back to waht I rated the juve version, at an 80?
Jump: 78 -- did he lose -6 points?
Technique: 91 -- seems okay, not sure he lost his quality touch with age, in the vid there were some neat bring downs nothing exemplary but still I really do not want lower just because a 2 min vid lacked some extraordinary takedowns, he was afterall regarded as very technically astute player. At this level it would be equivalent to Fabregas, Rosicky, van der Vaart and below -1 Diego and Pirlo.
Aggression: 82>>84-85 -- hmm I think due to him being played deeper I might just go with more Aggresion then when he was a SS, as I stated before more goals than at juve ratio wise, but from deeper locations!? So I think it may be fair to assume he invloved himself a fair bit into the attack. Also looking at the formations of those seasons despite Ancelotti being played higher up the pitch than him, I think he would have been tasked to do more of the dirty work while the more skillful Boniek would have been given liscenec to attack at will to support the lone striker Pruzzo. Here are some links to Roma formations of 1985-1986, 1986-1987, 1987-1988
Mentality: 85>>[b]87[/b] -- Did he lose any of his work ethic and fight of years earlier? Especially seeing as this would have been one of the reasons hw was moved into the centre of the park in the first place due to that grit he could have to him. So level with his younger version also level with current Frings, Sissoko, Nocerino.
Keeper Skills: 50
Team Work: 83>>88-90 -- From 90 to 83 , His passes may not have been anything extraordinary but his link up at juve was exemplary - his awarness and thoughts on how the game flowed were really probably only bettered by Platini at juve, did he diminsh so greatly - if so why did Sven Goran Eriksson bring him in for the outgoing Falcao as the 'playmaking' replacment'? Modern ladders state; 88: Iniesta, Kaka, Flamini, Gattuso, 89: Deco, 90: Lampard, Arteta, Scholes, Pizarro, Valeron, Tymoshcuk, 91: Gerrard, Cambiasso. What do you tyhink Classical?
Injury Tolerance: B
Weak Foot Accuracy: 6>>7 -- He lost his almost two footedness when he got too Rome?
Weak Foot frequency: 5>>7
ADD Consistency: 6/7 -- This was missing, not sure which value, did he maintain his high standards with Roma? Roma's finishes for his three seasons were 85-86 2nd(almost won the title that year after a great resurgence late in the season) and Coppa Italia winners, 86-87 7th place, 87-88 3rd place. Not sure how much we can gather out of this - or indeed anything at all from this on how well Boniek himself performed over the three season duration. Thoughts, average 6 for player who are not too outstanding throughout a season can fade sometimes in a match as well, or a 7 - a great level of continuity?
*Dribbling -- Not sure how much he still ran right at defences at age 30, might still be a viable star if his Teamwork remains high, he will not neceisarrily do unnaturally complicated runs through teams by the COM or something - really not sure, but....
* Tactical Dribbling -- ADD this IF *Dribbling remains, as really if he did one he did the other, at least at juve that would be true, might decide to tear through himself or just dirbble and take a bunch of opposing players for a light jog around the park before passing it off to a teammmate.
*Reaction -- This is definate for his younger version, excellent at making thos runs from deep, at Rome? I really do not nkow if this would keep with his style - did he make runs off the ball into the box from CMF/DMF ? I suggested Aggression to 84/85 to keep him going high up the field, but coupled with this star it might be overkill - yet he may still be deserving of it - maybe he did make killer runs through defnsive lines still? Ideas??
*Passing -- A Konami default, I am not sure if he concretly deserves this, was he a master with killer through balls at Roma? I know it was stated that Eriksson brought him in as a 'Playmaking replacment' but I am unsure if that necessarily qualifies him for either *Passing *Playmaking star. So REMOVE or KEEP?/ or ADD *Playmaking instead (will not have outright as a lethal effect, he will not make too many killer balls but just regulate the teams tempo - which by what I evaluate his Teamwork levels at I think he very well could do, but was he a specialist modern day Liverani, Pizarro, Xabi, Xavi?
*Middle Shooting -- I think this is okay, he started scoring great long range goals at a young age, check out at 6:00 min 1978 World Cup is his World Cup debut match against Mexico he scored an absolute precision guided missle, though he was not overly prone to shooting from distance at juve - hence why I avoided the star, due to the frequncy matter.
*Side -- REMOVE - again not sure even his juve version should have this - when he was actually played out wide! As the star is for a tendancy to stick to the touchline or for central players to move out wide from centre positions.
*1-touch pass -- ?Agian not sure if he lost the ability for an odd well struck volley.?
One other thing, about *Outside I seen Konami gave this to him as default star, where they prehaps correct? I did not notice him using the outside of his feet frequently in open play, but those vids do highlight several instances where he used it quite clinically - yet my minor problem is that in my PES 5 he already uses the outside of his right foot due to his 92 technique (I think) very effectively - so does he need the star? I do not really consider him a specialist (like Cameorenasi or Quaresma), or should any player who has the showcased some of that ability get it (like Ballack)?
So what do you think Classical, do not feel obligated to write a long response if you do not wish to - I just want to see if this would pass your inspection . Also I hope you will not mind but I will post this PM and any follow up communication we have via PM into a post in Bonieks thread once I make the update - just so everyone can see where you and me were coming from when we reordered his stats. I think it may also help anyone in the future wishing to suggest something to get an idea where we stand and they can balance their suggestion accordingly.
Classical wrote:That's an impressive answer you got here, dear Oriello:
Let's try to see, from my side, if I can get my own perception about Zibi's Roma time:
Weight: I found 76kg in http://www.zerozerofootball.com/player/ ... fault/5740
Positions: Since there is no CWP in the new game you could put CB refering his role as a Libero. Also you will find there is a new card speciially to defensive players who start the attacks and have an attack oriented mind.
Attack: Good ladder fiting. Agree
Defence: 70 to set below Gerrard and Fletcher, Pirlo level.
Balance: Ribery can stand it pretty well. Boniek can sit there at 80. (please note once again I never wanted to put him at those higher values...)
Stamina: 90 seems ok
Top Speed: He still looks faster than all of those. 84/85 here...
Acceleration: And the accelaration should be one or two points above the TS.
Response: 86 world level response for a CMf is a very good value and fitable with mentioned players. Agree
Agility: 82 might do the trick, even if here I would put him higher at Juve's days, which consequently would be higher as well at Roma's days.
Dribble Accuracy: Very nice logic, this proportional inversion. But you can't put below 90 if you stick at Juve with 90. Juve's days he won't be as good as current Iniesta - my perception here - so from his point we could setup a checkpoint.
Dribble Speed: The 87 makes him run pretty well but not with the pace of before. Agree
Short Pass Accuracy: You could raise one point here in reduce 2 in speed. This is the usual kind of edit we do while seting up inteligent players who got older. A bit too basic but kind of makes sense.
Short Pass Speed: Same as above.
Long Pass Accuracy: We could still apply the same logic of short passing, it depends on how we see it as a valid interpretation.
Long Pass Speed: Once again same as above.
Shot Accuracy: I think even if playing in a more defensive position if you had the touch you don't loose it like that. I would let him keep a splendid value of 78 since he is better than the ones you mention.
Shot Power: Here you can put him like the 86 guys you mention.
Shot Technique: yes, agree.
Free Kick Accuracy: unless we find stated goals, this is not that important.
Curling: same as a above
Header: seeing ladders, maximum 81 here
Jump: he can easily loose 4 points. 6 probably is too harsh.
Technique: 91 is more than perfect, he is below diego but at the same level as rosicky
Aggression: nice job on getting those line ups, but can you explain me (if agression is the stat that shows how a player goes for the attack, wild runs and only with his mind on the goal) why do he has only 83? I might be missing something here...
Mentality: He probably shapened himself into a fighter with technique and perceptuion. I go with your value.
Keeper Skills: 50
Team Work: 87 for me here.
At Roma keep the passing, also keep the outside. He looked the xeriff of that town.
Come back at me whenever you want, I am very happy helping you with Boniek.
Oriello wrote:Okay so I have bolded the values we have agreed upon, and underlined some points I want to clarify before I update him.
Position: CM*, DM, AM, CWP, CB -- Well I have yet to play the new PES2010 and I would like to leave sweeper in for those people who might still play the older versions at is a viable option then.
Weight: 76 -- Good that you linked an actual source, also noticed that they list his height at 182, but I generally found him at 181-182cm, so I think 181 is fine but I will up the kilos to 76.
Balance: 80 -- Okay sorry about the misunderstanding, I guees you were responding to the banned posters.
Top Speed: 84 -- Okay 81-82 on second thought (Stankovic on 81 really made me second guess myself) seems a bit low, but at 85 he would remaine at a level with some really speedy players like Hleb (185, 74), Podolski (182, 83), Forlan (180, 75), Higuain(183, 75). So I think the 84 looks better - he will still be a fast player but will not be able to bypass others as readily - even thouhg it is one measly point..
Agility: 82>>83? -- Well what would you suggest for him at his juve peak? I thought the 83 was a fair assesment as he has a sort of blocky nature in his running - a bit difficult to describe, but he looks sort of 'un-graceful' or akward in the way his movements come off when he dribbles - it looks like he naturally is not a very agile player. Also I noticed in his dribbling efforts he would rely more on clever footwork or a quick burst of pace rather than a twisty turny approach like even an old Del Piero might use nowadays.
Dribble Accuracy: 90 -- A bit confused on your viewpoint here, so let me see if I understand you; he cannot be lower than his juve version of 90 at Roma. OK? And the wording of this last part confused me very much; "Juve's days he won't be as good as current Iniesta - my perception here - so from his point we could setup a checkpoint." - So, current Iniesta is at a 90 - so do you think juve Boniek should be below 90?
Dribble Speed: 87
Short Pass Accuracy: 84>>85 -- So +1 point here and...
Short Pass Speed: 81>>79? -- Take -2 points from the speed to make it a 79?
Long Pass Acc.: 85>>86? -- And if we use the same logic as short passing then long pass speed will...
Long Pass Speed: 78>>76? -- Drop to 76? That seems pretty low, will not this not only reduce the range of his passing but also make it far easier to intercept long high balls? Maybe something like 77 minimum, equivalent to Beckenbauers LPS - who was known to lob accurate balls around his own vicinity rather than any cross field passes.
Shot Accuracy: 78 -- Agree.
Shot Power: 86
Shot Technique: 82
Free Kick Accuracy: 75
Curling: 74>>77 -- Well curling does influence a few other areas besides FK - of which the two or three I seen him setup for and attempt(2 for Poland and I think it was him in a Roma clip I seen), he did Gerrard like shots for the corner of the nets - with power and no curl - but I meant his curling would still be important for Long Passes or any set piece delivery (corner, long fk) it would affect the quality of thos passes. So I still think he can be level with his juve self here.
Aggression: 82>>84-85 -- Well I assume you are reffering to the juventus version? Well I had him higher before (86-88 I do not remember) but lowered the number to 83. It is simply that when he is played as a SS he remains in too advanced positions in PES than what he would do at juve, I would have dropped this value even lower than 83 if he only played as an SS to make him play more authentically, but because he was also used as pseudo SMF at juve this would have taken him too much out of the action up front. Notice that his juve version has *Reaction - which will allow him to make aggressive sprints/runs off the ball in hopes of being put through on a long through ball or make late runs into the box from deep - if he had been left behind in the play (Combined with his 90 teamwork and 86 response he will also be very effective at these runs). Those things he did - but in general he would often come deep to help build play or help out defensively - at too high an aggresion value at a position like SS he would become too poacher like - which was not his game style at all. I placed his Aggression for Roma higher as he only plaed in midfield there, and played deeper, so I think he needed that bit more to force him up higher in PES. In those formations I linked you he was being played behind Ancelotti! The more typical DMF.
Let me try to illustrate what I mean in this (main positions underlined);
Juventus; Bonieks positions: *SS*, SMF, AMF, WG - AGG 83
He is already being played high up the pitch and is easily placed to be invloved int the attack, *Reaction will make him do damaging runs both early in developing plays and late into box if he was deeper on a developed play.
Roma; Bonieks positions CMF, DMF, CB, CWP, AMF - AGG 84-85
Being played much deeper - to maintain around the same invlovemnt in attack he needs a higher aggression value then from what he had being played higher up at juve. Also we are possibly removing *Reaction to eliminate that feature that we know only for sure he showcased at juventus.
Sorry to resort to trying to literally illustrate my idea, but I think it best gets my view across on why I choose that Aggresion value.
Mentality: 87 -- Intreseting stats I found Classical at http://www.myjuve.it Boniek in his 81 Serie A Matches with juventus recieved 41 yellows and two 2 reds! this guy was more brutal than Nedved who in 247 league matches got 43 yellows 3 reds. More or less the same position, I have no idea if he carried that streak over with him when he was told by Eriksson to be a DMF/CMF. Looks like he liked to get in on all parts of the game in equal measure - and get very dirty at the same time.
Keeper Skills: 50
Team Work: 87 -- Agree then.
Injury Tolerance: B
Weak Foot Accuracy: 6>>7 -- No disagree?, going to raise this to his younger standards then.
Weak Foot frequency: 5>>7
Consistency: 6 -- I will be conservative and add only a 6 in this category.
*Dribbling -- So KEEP this?
*Tactical Dribbling -- If we keep *Dribbling then I would like to ADD this to offset any singleminded dribbling in PES.
*Reaction -- REMOVING
*Passing -- KEEP instead of prehaps replacing with *Playmaking? Just want to be definate.
*1-touch pass -- KEEP?
*Outside -- I will add this to his juventus version too then, not sure he just learned this ability magically when he travelled south.
So Classical it is okay if I post our PM conversation in Bonieks thread once I make the update? To let all users see how we came to our conclusions.
Classical wrote:Hello there
No more postings yet ?
Classical wrote:Hello there
No more postings yet ?
I thought the 83 was a fair assesment as he has a sort of blocky nature in his running - a bit difficult to describe, but he looks sort of 'un-graceful' or akward in the way his movements come off when he dribbles - it looks like he naturally is not a very agile player. Also I noticed in his dribbling efforts he would rely more on clever footwork or a quick burst of pace rather than a twisty turny approach like even an old Del Piero might use nowadays.
....And I have now caught up to myself - 1982 set posted.Oriello wrote:maybe even a fourth set might be required now, seeing there is a 1982 Polish team, specifically tailored for those performances. But I am getting ahead of myself.
I read that Boniek organized a side trip to the Vatican just before to 82 World Cup, and the entire Polish team met the Pope - this also got him and some other people in trouble as the communist authorities disapproved (backdrop was that solidarity movement opposing the Polish state - the Pope supported this union - that's right kids, Ronald Reagan and Pope John Paul II took on communism and won! That's why one of them is becoming a saint.Falco wrote:Just an anecdote... I ones heard he had a little friendship with Pope Johannes Paul II, ja ja
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