Franco Baresi | 1988-1990

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Franco Baresi | 1988-1990

Postby PES Stats Database » 2008 Dec 11, 03:06

Nickname: "The Steel Man" "Piscinin"

Club: AC Milan




Growth type: Standard/Lasting

INFO:

Spoiler: show
What more can be said about a man who made defending an absolute joy to watch. Such a reader of the game, brilliant technique, his decision making was absolutely brilliant, he knew when to slow the game down and play it out from the back or when he just needed to hit it into Row Z, you could argue Franco was no nonsense but a defender with flair at the same time, as I've said he based every decision on it's own merits and knew what was best to do in every scenario. Brave as anything as well, would stick his head where most would struggle to put their boot.

Despite the '94 World Cup Final being an absolute dire affair in the attacking third, any fan of the true art of defending would say that Franco's remarkable MOM performance at the ripe old age of 34, snuffing out Romario and every other Brazilian attacker that day was sheer genius.

Also as well as being a brilliant defender he was also fantastic at bringing the ball out from the back and often finished off his own moves he started from defence, with his amazing bursts of acceleration, technique and brilliant positioning at both ends of the field.

Franco Edges it for me over Maldini as the best Defender of all time. I've never seen a defender command a line as well as this guy.


HONOURS:
Spoiler: show
European Cup: 1989, 1990, 1994
Intercontinental Cup: 1989, 1990.
European Supercup: 1989, 1990,1994.
Italian Championship:1979, 1988, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996.
Italian Super Cup: 1988, 1992, 1993, 1994.
Mitropa Cup: 1982
FIFA World Cup: 1982

1989: European Silver Ball Footballer of the Year France Football
1990: Italian League The Best Player of the Year.
1989: Best Silver Player World of the Year IFFHS : 1989
2004: Named in FIFA 100
2004: Named Player of Italy of the Century XX by FIGC


VIDEOS:



Spoiler: show
[youtube]

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ADDITIONAL LINKS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_baresi

http://www.planetworldcup.com/LEGENDS/baresi.html

http://www.acmilan-online.com/lg_baresi.php

http://francobaresi6.com/en/profile_bio.htm

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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby jeanclaude » 2010 Aug 17, 11:08

for me 98 in DEF could be fine,but he need 98 in RES:this was his main ability. we are talking about 1988-90 period,he was the better defender in the world and one of the best ever. But after WC1994,a lot of time he wasn't expel only 'cause playing with Milan shirt(and trust...this in Italy happen)... he began to make a good number of fault. THIS IS THE THING i wanna explain before someone say that he is the best defender ever.

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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby Phil » 2010 Aug 17, 11:52

---

Last edited by Phil on 2011 Jan 01, 21:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby zguc » 2010 Aug 17, 14:00

Cannavaro was a different type of defender, he has relied more on force and jumping than on the defensive skills and intelligence.

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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby Alex_10 » 2010 Dec 30, 14:45

zguc wrote:Cannavaro was a different type of defender, he has relied more on force and jumping than on the defensive skills and intelligence.


hahaahahha this is bullshit! Yeah he was ripped and powerful but take in account how much bigger and stronger are current CF, Saying that a man 175cm can go for power on a tackle is just non-sense. Have you ever played football? Because you seem to not understand the basics of boby check and tackling..

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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby Luisao82 » 2011 Jan 20, 07:17

zguc wrote:Cannavaro was a different type of defender, he has relied more on force and jumping than on the defensive skills and intelligence.


You definitely know little about Baresi. He was a tough defender, but he was also (arguably) the most intelligent defender this world has ever known.

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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby yourigo » 2011 Jan 20, 22:03

according to this site that would be beckenbauer...99 f***ing response

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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby Luisao82 » 2011 Jan 21, 07:37

Yeah, but in terms of 'defensive intelligence' Baresi was far superior.

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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby yourigo » 2011 Jan 21, 13:06

that depends on your definition of defensive intelligence, i agree he could have been the best defense leader ever, justifiyng for his 95 team-work, but in terms of him as an individual defender, defensive skills alone, i think it could be argued that there were others better, either on taking an adversary one-on-one and getting the ball better or defensive positioning in headers or covering for team-mates...with these stats baresi is the best at everything, while i'm sure that there was at least one player who was better then him in one of the things i mention. think of today's ronaldo and messi, the two best players in the world, and look at their attack stat: 86 for ronaldo, 85 for messi. and why? because people are objective, they realize their strong points and their faillures, something you can't do for a player so highly praised. it would be different if you saw him playing week in and week out, as it is no one remembers any of his faults, just the things he was good at and so they aren't being objective..

"You do ill if you praise, and still worse if you reprove in a matter you do not understand." - Da Vinci
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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby Luisao82 » 2011 Jan 22, 14:32

yourigo wrote:defensive skills alone, i think it could be argued that there were others better, either on taking an adversary one-on-one and getting the ball better or defensive positioning in headers or covering for team-mates...


You can name one or two players that were better than him at one of those things, we agree here.
But you hardly can name one that combines defensive skills so well and in so large quantity as Baresi.


yourigo wrote:people are objective, they realize their strong points and their faillures, something you can't do for a player so highly praised. it would be different if you saw him playing week in and week out, as it is no one remembers any of his faults, just the things he was good at and so they aren't being objective..


Even though you got a valid point there, his stats reflect his best days and Baresi was not only a relatively consistent player, but also arguably the most intelligent defender ever in his best days.
As an individual defender, he still deserves all the credit given to him. No wonder people say that a player like Costacurta was lucky to have Baresi by his side and not the other way around.
He was not only a great leader and team player... he was extremely good at everything that involved defending, with or without the help of his team mates. Every player has his blunders and mistakes, and Baresi was certainly no exception. But when he did good, he did it like no other could.


yourigo wrote:that depends on your definition of defensive intelligence


The ability to take the best defensive positions and the ability to firmly snatch the ball/dispossess the attacker after, the ability to keep composed and take the best positions EVEN after beaten by an attacker, the ability to always be focused, the ability to forecast a possible dangerous situation or to cover for a teammate misplacement... and the ability to do all the above while commanding his team. 8-)

As I said before, some one or two players could be better than him in some of those abilities... but none could combine them as well as Baresi IMHO.

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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby yourigo » 2011 Jan 22, 15:47

yeah your right, he was absolutely the best at every single aspect of defending...i can't imagine what goes on some people's minds who still say maldini was better than him, maldini was inferior in every single aspect. In fact, let's give baresi 98 response just to put him over maldini...no! let's give him 99! there's no way baresi should be under beckenbauer! he was the best at everything!

"You do ill if you praise, and still worse if you reprove in a matter you do not understand." - Da Vinci
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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby Luisao82 » 2011 Jan 22, 16:13

I'm confused... are u being ironic? Lol.

I seriously hope not, coz that would be a very dumb irony.

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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby yourigo » 2011 Jan 22, 17:42

it's hard to explain something to someone who doesn't want to understand. let me put it this way: federer is arguably the best tennis player ever (at least until nadal proves himself some more) but that doesn't mean he has the best serve ever or the best backhand or the most stamina or the fastest run. he does have unbelievable reflexes, reading of the game and technique, but it's his overall game that makes him the best ever, he isn't the best at every single aspect of the game, otherwise he'd be undefeatable. same goes for baresi, he might be the best overall defender ever (btw imo it's maldini), but that doesn't mean he is the best at everything, a concept you seem to have a hard time grasping.

"You do ill if you praise, and still worse if you reprove in a matter you do not understand." - Da Vinci
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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby Luisao82 » 2011 Jan 22, 22:29

yourigo wrote:it's hard to explain something to someone who doesn't want to understand


I have to say the same about you, and I'll even explain why. :roll:


yourigo wrote:he was absolutely the best at every single aspect of defending..


Did I say he was the BEST at EVERY single defensive aspect?! Nope, I didn't.
What I've said (and I'll quote) was:
".... some one or two players could be better than him in some (defensive) abilities... but none could combine them as well as Baresi IMHO."

Two very different things, don't you agree? ;)


yourigo wrote:i can't imagine what goes on some people's minds who still say maldini was better than him, maldini was inferior in every single aspect.


Dumb irony and dumb comparison really.
Classic Maldini was the most all round side back ever and arguably one of the best defenders of all time... but that doesn't mean he could DEFEND better than Baresi, does it?
I made it clear right from the beginning that I was talking about 'defensive intelligence' in terms of physical and mental abilities that make one player better AT DEFENDING than the other.

So summarizing: Baresi was a better DEFENDER than Maldini, but not a better PLAYER or FOOTBALLER.
Got it?!


yourigo wrote:In fact, let's give baresi 98 response just to put him over maldini...no! let's give him 99! there's no way baresi should be under beckenbauer! he was the best at everything!


Again: dumb irony.

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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby yourigo » 2011 Jan 22, 23:35

what i was doing was taking your argument to ridiculous proportions and then criticising the result, wich is a little more evolved than dumb irony, although admitedly it wasn't the best way to get my point across. But if you think baresi was a better defender than maldini, or even cannavaro, you haven't seen enough of him. Baresi was a sweeper, more than the clean-up guy he was the first line of play building and the corner stone of the team's defense. he had a priveliged point of view to the game and the reading to be extraordinary at antecipation BUT, he didn't have the same imposing presence and one-on-one ability AT DEFENDING as a player like cannavaro. Think of piqué, he's not that great as an indivdual defender, that's why guardiola puts puyol on the right when the other team's biggest attacking threat comes from that side, but he's playing style fits the barcelona system so well that he still is considered one of the best defenders in the world, for many he is better than vidic, while vidic is much better at defending

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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby Luisao82 » 2011 Jan 24, 08:27

yourigo wrote:although admitedly it wasn't the best way to get my point across


Well, you got that right.
But it's a nice thing you were fast to admit it. It definitely shows some wisdom. ;)


yourigo wrote:But if you think baresi was a better defender than maldini, or even cannavaro, you haven't seen enough of him. Baresi was a sweeper, more than the clean-up guy he was the first line of play building and the corner stone of the team's defense. he had a priveliged point of view to the game and the reading to be extraordinary at antecipation BUT, he didn't have the same imposing presence and one-on-one ability AT DEFENDING as a player like cannavaro.


Maybe the problem is that you haven't seen or you don't know enough of Baresi?! :roll:

Defence-wise you can only compare Baresi to guys like Bobby Moore, Scirea, or even Cannavaro.
Comparing him to Maldini is a bit absurd.

Baresi was definitely a better defender than Maldini, I really can't understand why are you still arguing about this.
He was more effective in a man-for-man marking scheme, he developed a much more brilliant positional sense and reading of the game, he was a better tackler... I mean, he simply was a better DEFENDER than Maldini and there's no point in discussing this.
You can say that Maldini was an excellent defender and a much more complete footballer.... but you definitely can't say that he was a BETTER DEFENDER than Baresi. Because he wasn't! Baresi was definitely a better centre-back. Though Maldini is the best left-back I've ever seen.


As for Cannavaro, he was rock solid, imposing, one of the most dependable defenders ever. We agree here!
But the mere fact that you're saying that Baresi was more 'privileged' due to his position (sweeper) to justify why he was so successful gives me even more sure that you know little about Baresi.
Not few times Baresi was the guy that had to cope with his teammates errors at the back, and he cope with it like NO OTHER could. And that's not because he was 'privileged' like you said, but because of his superior defensive attributes. Even when he found himself dealing with two or three attackers, he controlled the situation with chilvary, unmatched intelligence and class.

Cannavaro was stronger, more athletic and also rock solid and intelligent. But was he as intelligent as Baresi?
I don't think so.
Baresi was not only more classy but he was also a bit more intelligent than Cannavaro, which doesn't mean that Cannavaro was not as effective as Baresi, of course. But taking into account the set of attributes that make a defender the most intelligent of them all, there's no other who could mix them so well like Baresi IMHO.

Baresi mixed toughness with talent but he definitely was a defender who utilised grace and wit much more than passionate muscle. The guy was 100% class and intelligence, showing that the game is played with the brain more than any other part of the body.

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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby yourigo » 2011 Jan 24, 14:36

"Even when he found himself dealing with two or three attackers"? yeah, cause that happened a lot. this just shows you think of baresi as superman, you probably saw a video on youtube where he faced three opponents on the counter and one of them was stupid enough to make a wrong pass that baresi intercepted. And you go on saying he was a better tackler than maldini...i give in. Baresi is clearly a god to you, and i myself am a mere mortal and therefore can't do anything to persuade you otherwise.

leva lá a bicicleta, eu n escrevo mais neste tópico...

"You do ill if you praise, and still worse if you reprove in a matter you do not understand." - Da Vinci
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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby Luisao82 » 2011 Jan 24, 15:04

yourigo wrote:"Even when he found himself dealing with two or three attackers"? yeah, cause that happened a lot


It happened enough times to draw some conclusions about him. ;)
You might think that because he was a sweeper he had an easier job, I say you may be falling into a fallacy there.


yourigo wrote:you probably saw a video on youtube where he faced three opponents on the counter and one of them was stupid enough to make a wrong pass that baresi intercepted.


I got interested in Baresi the first time my father talked about him. I do respect my father's opinion about players, coz he's not only a guy who (by nature) analyzes things with some rigor and intelligence, but also a guy who understands something about football (he himself played as a CB and DM for Sporting da Beira, which was one of the most famous Mozambican clubsides at the time).

Some time after that, when we finally got a decent internet connection here in Maputo I searched the internet for articles, videos for many players I got interested in, including Baresi. So my opinion about Baresi was formed long before this discussion.


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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby JMVP » 2011 Jan 24, 15:26

:lol: @ trying to picture how you deal with 3 attackers at the same time. Please elaborate on that Luisão, it'd be fun to listen.
And, without meaning any disrespect, the reason why the classic section is full of unreal sets is because of things like "my father/uncle/whatever said ...".

I vaguely remember Baresi and the image i have from him it's the one of a charismatic figure and a great leader, but to be honest - and bare in mind i said i remember him vaguely - i think that Cannavaro (cough... *butcher*), Maldini or Puyol were just has good as him in their tackling ability. They were all strong yet agile guys, very committed and with natural tackling ability. People think what defines an intelligent defender in PES is the defence or response value, but more than that the fact that he has all 4 defensive stars will make him an extremely intelligent defender.

Btw, i read your coment on Moore: "Defence-wise you can only compare Baresi to guys like Bobby Moore, Scirea, or even Cannavaro." How dare you using classy Moore in the same sentence as Canavaro ? :o Moore was the guy that would steal a ball in the back line and then dribble until he reached midfield, then make a rabona pass. Defensive wise (whatever that means) he wasn't any wall. I've got classic ESPN, saw it with my own eyes.

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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby Luisao82 » 2011 Jan 25, 13:22

JMVP wrote::lol: @ trying to picture how you deal with 3 attackers at the same time. Please elaborate on that Luisão, it'd be fun to listen.


So you never saw ONE defender having to deal with two or three attackers at the same time? It's something like this: first attacker has the ball, second and third attacker are unmarked and waiting for a pass or positioning themselves to receive it. So he has to decide:
if he tackles --> how to tackle
if he closes the passing lines --> which line to close and how to position himself to succesfully close it
if he closes down the second attacker --> or if he closes down the third attacker
etc, etc...

Tell me if you still can't picture it, and maybe I'll ask someone to do a drawing just for you. :lol:

JMVP wrote:the reason why the classic section is full of unreal sets is because of things like "my father/uncle/whatever said ...".


Actually the reason is that most guys believe in everything they're told, without even investigating for themselves or without checking the reliability/ability to evaluate a player of their 'sources'. ;)
Even taking in account that I truly believe in my father's opinion about players, I didn't just rely on his 'stories'.
I read many articles about Pelé, Baresi, Eusébio, etc.. long before the foundation of sites like Youtube. I have been navigating thru Football Forums and sites for some time now and I also watch documentaries whenever I can, so my sources are definitely not restricted to fanboy's, gloryhunters or to a bunch of subjective opinions. 8-)
When my father says in a detailed manner why Baresi's defending was the finest he had ever seen, when I read 4 or 5 consecutive articles backing his opinion and them when I go to 2 or 3 Football Forums (one of which was an english Forum, if I'm not mistaken) and I see most posters agreeing that Baresi was the finest defender ever, some didn't even hesitate to say that he was also better than guys like Bobby Moore or Scirea... then I gain some confidence to vehemently throw this in anyone's face:
Baresi is arguably the best defender ever... even better than guys like Cannavaro and definitely a better defender than Maldini!


JMVP wrote:I vaguely remember Baresi


That's why I prefer to stick to my father's opinion then to yours. ;)


JMVP wrote:People think what defines an intelligent defender in PES is the defence or response value, but more than that the fact that he has all 4 defensive stars will make him an extremely intelligent defender.


You got a point there. But I can assure you that I'm not included in that lot anymore. :lol:
Also, one of the focal points of my debate with yourigo was he was arguing that Baresi doesn't deserve to be above Cannavaro in some defensive stats (which I promptly disagreed and explained why). So taking in account that both of them have all the 4 *def. stars I fail to understand what's your point?!


JMVP wrote:Moore was the guy that would steal a ball in the back line (...) he wasn't any wall. I've got classic ESPN, saw it with my own eyes.


Well, for starters Moore was arguably a better tackler than Cannavaro, and his anticipation ability was second to none in the history of the game. Ok, he wasn't so athletic and strong and can't be exactly considered a WALL like Cannavaro... but (in his own style) he was similarly insurmountable.

BTW, how many games have you seen of Moore? It must have been like 15-20, coz you seem to be vastly authoritative on this matter. :lol:


JMVP wrote:Defensive wise (whatever that means)


It's very simple actually. Here's an exercise for you:

Tactics Wise = with relation to Tactics
Defence Wise = with relation to _________

Oh wait... you must be mocking because I wrote 'Defensive' instead of 'Defence', right?! :roll:

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Re: Franco BARESI | 1988-1990

Postby JMVP » 2011 Jan 25, 20:54

First part was funny has expected... if he closes down the 3rd or 2nd attacker he leaves two guys alone. Duh! Second, not even Dhalsim could close two passing lines at the same time. And if he tackles he deals with one attacker.

The rest was not so funny... First (?) Jurgens, now Yourigo, and i'm next to join the lot. That alone must mean something.

I vaguely remember the player, but i'm not the one who "seem to be vastly authoritative on this matter". You're the one who's "vehemently throw(ing) this in anyone's face". And why? Because your father said so and you read your articles and watched your documentaries... good for you. Your free to stick to anyone's opinion, just don' try to make others stick to yours. Enough for me, you can chat with your toes from now on.

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