RAÚL González

Moderators: Helios, TBD, Mod's

RAÚL González

Postby Markulur » 2008 Dec 09, 22:53

Image



Last edited by Markulur on 2009 Sep 29, 15:14, edited 4 times in total.
Editing La Liga...
User avatar
Markulur
 
Posts: 2377
Joined: 2008 Dec 08, 20:05
Location: Terrassa, Barcelona, Spain
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 1 time

by »



 

Re: RAÚL González

Postby PMC » 2009 Aug 10, 20:55

Ulises wrote:There are some things that are absolutly clear:

- Raul ALWAYS and in EVERY single season scored more goals that Torres.
- Torres is gets the support of mascherano and gerrard who are better midfielders than lass and gago.
- Torres is the single striker in liverpool line up, he is the liverpool attakc reference, none leech him goal oportunities. Raul ALWAYS plays with an attack parter, higuain, RVN, he is not the attack reference, and he has to share the goal oportunities.
- Torres plays minutes for liverpool than raul for RM.
- Mark suggestion makes Torres to get higher values in EVERY single stat in this database, yes, in ALL the stats, well... out of DEF, and condition.


it goes either way, my friend

1) wrong, Torres scored 24 goals in 33 games in 07/08, Raul 18 in 37
2) Not just the central midfielders matter here and I think we all can agree that Real Madrid has great wingers too. The service depends on the playing style and Real Madrid plays more attack minded football than Liverpool
3) so? It also means that Torres has to cope with the whole defence on his own where as in a 2-man attack the attention of the defenders get divided.
4) wrong again:

Torres 08/09 - 1736 mins
Raul 08/09 - 2998 mins

5) irrelevant


it's really that absolutely clear :roll:


statistics from www.transfermarkt.de

I'm against you
User avatar
PMC
 
Posts: 7532
Joined: 2008 Dec 08, 19:51
Location: Vienna
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: RAÚL González

Postby Ulises » 2009 Aug 10, 21:31

1) ok i was wrong about that, yes 1 season out of 6 seasons torres that torres is a top player, everyone can have a bad season, but YES, i was wrong.
2) the thing is the only winger RM had last season was robben who is called a selfish player... the playstyle of RM was NOT an attack playstyle, and obviously liverpool playstyle is made arround torres, RM is not arround raul, RM was not attack minded thats why juande ramos was kicked, even if he got the BEST statistics of RM in HISTORY! he use to win 1-0 or at most 2-1. you are wrong.
3) that argument is well... wrong! you are saying that in liverpool no player attacks only torres alone?¿ mate gerrard was the top scorer, raul was not the top scorer, higuain was, gerrard is a midfielder higuain a stricker, well gerrard is probably the best midfielder, wich is obvious a great advantage for the strickers. The thing is that torres scores higher % of the goals of liverpool when raul scores less % of the goals of the team. Torres is clearly the attack reference
4) Torres was injured!!! long injure!! he missed maaany matches, but if you see the matches when he recovered torres use to play the whole match with liverpool due to he is the attacking reference and all the team is arround him, raul used to be the firt change, the first in going to the pich if he is in the bench and the first in going out of the pitch if he is in the first 11, torres if he is in good form and liverpool is not winning 3-0 is NEVER changed. So make a fair comparation you should see how many minutes played each one after torres recovered from the injure. wrong again.

The only thing you are right is about goal tallys, and well that was the season of capello the onlyone that had the courage to sit him on the bench, can you tell me how many minutes played each one that season?¿ who was the top scorer in each team?¿

Ulises
 

Re: RAÚL González

Postby Ken » 2009 Aug 11, 03:24

Ulises wrote:1) ok i was wrong about that, yes 1 season out of 6 seasons torres that torres is a top player, everyone can have a bad season, but YES, i was wrong.
2) the thing is the only winger RM had last season was robben who is called a selfish player... the playstyle of RM was NOT an attack playstyle, and obviously liverpool playstyle is made arround torres, RM is not arround raul, RM was not attack minded thats why juande ramos was kicked, even if he got the BEST statistics of RM in HISTORY! he use to win 1-0 or at most 2-1. you are wrong.
3) that argument is well... wrong! you are saying that in liverpool no player attacks only torres alone?¿ mate gerrard was the top scorer, raul was not the top scorer, higuain was, gerrard is a midfielder higuain a stricker, well gerrard is probably the best midfielder, wich is obvious a great advantage for the strickers. The thing is that torres scores higher % of the goals of liverpool when raul scores less % of the goals of the team. Torres is clearly the attack reference
4) Torres was injured!!! long injure!! he missed maaany matches, but if you see the matches when he recovered torres use to play the whole match with liverpool due to he is the attacking reference and all the team is arround him, raul used to be the firt change, the first in going to the pich if he is in the bench and the first in going out of the pitch if he is in the first 11, torres if he is in good form and liverpool is not winning 3-0 is NEVER changed. So make a fair comparation you should see how many minutes played each one after torres recovered from the injure. wrong again.

The only thing you are right is about goal tallys, and well that was the season of capello the onlyone that had the courage to sit him on the bench, can you tell me how many minutes played each one that season?¿ who was the top scorer in each team?¿


1) Already cleared, I won't comment any further.

2) First of all, Liverpool build the game around Gerrard, not Torres mate. Gerrard is the core of the whole Liverpool's movement, and Torres benefit from him a lot. Second of all Real was not really attacking-minded under Ramos but certainly more attacking-minded than Liverpool, that's for sure. Liverpool play more like a counter-attacking style with Torres up front as you already know.

3) That argument is... I don't see any connection ? So what if Gerrrad is the best midfielder ? So what if he was the top scorer ? Does that make him automatically become a second striker alongside Torres ? There is a main difference between an AMC and a CF you know, Gerrard probably is playing deeper than Higuain or whoever it is, Gerrard don't share the striker job with Torres, he just make the ball for Torres so Torres can deal with it by himself.

4) That is because Torres is the only striker at Liverpool who can do the kind of job that suit Liverpool's tactic, there's nothing bias about him and his form or anything. In Real Madrid Higuain or RVN could easily fill in Raul's position, so obviously he would have less playing time. Is there anything wrong about that ?

That is to answer you comparison between Raul and Torres. Now I want to say one more thing, that is : You should have not use the statistics in the first place as a basis for your statement that Raul should have some better stats than Torres. You know why ? Just read this. You based the whole point of your argument on statistics, and that certainly fail you in the first place.

User avatar
Ken
 
Posts: 744
Joined: 2009 May 28, 16:23
Location: Georgia, USA
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: RAÚL González

Postby Ulises » 2009 Aug 12, 04:49

I am not basin in goal tallys or any statistic, i just say that raul scores more goals what would be imposible if he gets lower values in every stat...

2) 3) Gerrard + Xabi Alonso supported torres, Gago supported Raul and Higuain, see the diffrence?¿ I think its clear my point...

Ulises
 

Re: RAÚL González

Postby Markulur » 2009 Aug 12, 09:59

Robben can be an explanation for this season. Remember that he has always 2 players thinking in him, one covering him and the other supporting the other defender. More posibilities to Raul... Think too that when Robben arrives near the keeper and shot without a goal... who is in the center always? Raúl and is who will take the ball if it falls there, and is in lots of ocassions. Who has Torres? Babel? Kuyt? Are not the same...

Editing La Liga...
User avatar
Markulur
 
Posts: 2377
Joined: 2008 Dec 08, 20:05
Location: Terrassa, Barcelona, Spain
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: RAÚL González

Postby Ulises » 2009 Aug 12, 12:08

Markulur wrote:Robben can be an explanation for this season. Remember that he has always 2 players thinking in him, one covering him and the other supporting the other defender. More posibilities to Raul... Think too that when Robben arrives near the keeper and shot without a goal... who is in the center always? Raúl and is who will take the ball if it falls there, and is in lots of ocassions. Who has Torres? Babel? Kuyt? Are not the same...


Sure... robben... who was out half the season...

But you are going the wrong way, i am not basing my argument in the last season, i am saying that in the last about 5, 6 season, when torres became a top class, raul still scores more goals than him alway, except 1 season, when RVN was the striker of RM instead of raul (capello times...).

The thing is in what raul bases his succes?¿ he has to have something over torres to score more goals than him, what is that thing?¿ he has no speed, he has no strength, he has no power, agree on that, but he reads better than anyone and can place the ball really well and his positioning in the pitch is great. Then if torres reads as equal as raul (same resp) and place the ball as raul (equal SA) and same ATK and also gets higher values in EVERYTHING out of TW, can anyone tell me how can raul score more goals than torres?¿ what makes the diffrence to score more goals than torres, drogba, rooney (i think), same as messi or higuain...

Raul reads better than anyone now, inzaghi is in decline, he is alaways in the right moment in the right place wich means high TW + RES,

P.S: i am not going to mention ATK cause soon or after the mods will last that ATK doesnt suit the "positioning" or i hope so... if not i will lose the credibility in this site (just test any striker with ATK: 0...).

Ulises
 

Re: RAÚL González

Postby Markulur » 2009 Aug 12, 12:34

First of all, Robben played 29 games in league and 6 on Europe... this is the half of a season?

Second... Raul have better shoting than Torres sure. But Why Torres is only 2 points under Del Piero in ST and with the same accuracy? Is really Torres in par with Henry in shoting? Better than Huntelar on ST? Torres is strong, agile and fast... all help to ST and I can see the reason of why he is that high there. Probably is not a Raul's problem.

Third... Raúl only generates his goals or take the others opportunities and Torres generates goals for him and all his team. It's the main difference IMO.

Editing La Liga...
User avatar
Markulur
 
Posts: 2377
Joined: 2008 Dec 08, 20:05
Location: Terrassa, Barcelona, Spain
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: RAÚL González

Postby Ulises » 2009 Aug 12, 15:25

Markulur wrote:First of all, Robben played 29 games in league and 6 on Europe... this is the half of a season?

Second... Raul have better shoting than Torres sure. But Why Torres is only 2 points under Del Piero in ST and with the same accuracy? Is really Torres in par with Henry in shoting? Better than Huntelar on ST? Torres is strong, agile and fast... all help to ST and I can see the reason of why he is that high there. Probably is not a Raul's problem.

Third... Raúl only generates his goals or take the others opportunities and Torres generates goals for him and all his team. It's the main difference IMO.


Robben played that amount of matches?¿ Then rise his condition... plz we all know about robben... even if 29 matches he didnt play more than 10 COMPLETE matches last season...

Second with your suggestion raul gets SA 87 the sames as torres, ST 90 the same as torres, and SP 78, Torres 84... So raul is worse than torres about shoting. You also suggest the same values for raul in ATK and RES than torres, 89...

Third, thats why raul is better finisher, well he is a finisher, then if torres is rated with higher shoting abilities he would became better finisher than raul, torres would be able to score the "poacher" goals that rauls scores plus the goal opportunities that generates by himself (wich are a lot due to his phisical qualities).

Are you suggesting that torres is overrated?¿ Yes i agree with you. But remember that theres any player that has scored more goals than raul actually, just ronaldo or RVN are close to him. He should have something to be THE BEST striker in the history of the best team of the history.

Orange values for ST, SA, RES, ATK, and higher Header mid-high yellow values (maaaaaany CBs gets higher values than raul wich is a bit laughbale)

Ulises
 

Re: RAÚL González

Postby Agüero » 2009 Aug 12, 15:35

Ulises wrote: He should have something to be THE BEST striker in the history of the best team of the history.


Image

Please, if I make mistakes in English, correct me, I want to improve.
User avatar
Agüero
 
Posts: 974
Joined: 2008 Dec 15, 00:09
Location: Madrid, Spain
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: RAÚL González

Postby Ulises » 2009 Aug 12, 18:07

he is better than di estefano! At least he has scored more goals than him, he is the historical top scorer of RM in history.

ALL GOALS OF RAÚL
LIGA 223
CHAMPIONS 64
COPA 18
SUPERCOPA DE EUROPA 1
SUPERCOPA DE ESPAÑA 7
INTERCONTINENTAL 1
MUNDIALITO DE CLUBES 2

HISTORICAL TOP GOALERS REAL MADRID LIGA
RAÚL 223
DI STÉFANO 216
SANTILLANA 186
HUGO SÁNCHEZ 164
PUSKAS 156

HISTÓRICAL TOP GOALERS IN ALL COMPETITIONS REAL MADRID
RAÚL 316
DI STÉFANO 307
SANTILLANA 290
PUSKAS 236
HUGO SÁNCHEZ 207

CLASIFICACIÓN DE GOLEADORES DE LA HISTORIA DE LA LIGA
ZARRA 251
HUGO SÁNCHEZ 234
DI STÉFANO 227
CÉSAR 226
RAÚL 223
QUINI 216

(actually he is over Di Stefano)

He is also the historical top scorer of Champions League over other RM myths like di estefano or puskas.

Ulises
 

Re: RAÚL González

Postby Nrby » 2009 Aug 12, 18:13

Ulises wrote:He is also the historical top scorer of Champions League over other RM myths like di estefano or puskas.

incomparable during Di Stefano's and Puskas's time the champions league consisted of only 7 maximum (that including the final) ... it's a miracle that they got that many goals in the CL as it is ... if you compare the goals scoring ratios Raul (0,51), Ruud (0,71) to somthing like Di Stefano (0,84) or Puskas (0,88) ... you can just as well forget the statistics :) ... I'm pretty informed in this area :D

User avatar
Nrby
 
Posts: 2669
Joined: 2008 Dec 08, 19:51
Location: Reşiţa, România
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: RAÚL González

Postby Ulises » 2009 Aug 12, 18:38

Nrby wrote:
Ulises wrote:He is also the historical top scorer of Champions League over other RM myths like di estefano or puskas.

incomparable during Di Stefano's and Puskas's time the champions league consisted of only 7 maximum (that including the final) ... it's a miracle that they got that many goals in the CL as it is ... if you compare the goals scoring ratios Raul (0,51), Ruud (0,71) to somthing like Di Stefano (0,84) or Puskas (0,88) ... you can just as well forget the statistics :) ... I'm pretty informed in this area :D


If you are pretty informed in this area, you should know that in those times. di estefano, puskas, gento, rial times, the goal ratio per matchs was INMENSE HINGHER!! teams used to play with a minimun of 4 or 5 strikers, do you remember for example the final of RM vs Eintratch (i am talking about memory wich works quite bad in my case, can be wrong but you should know) where RM won 7-1?¿ thats a clear example, so that "high" ratios seems very very normal for that times.

And you should take in account that Raul has never been the CF of the team, he has never been the attacking reference of the, he has never been the box player of the team, i hope you understand what i want to say, does the names of Zamorano, Mijatovic, Morientes, Ronaldo, Owen, RVN say something to you?¿ If not all those had been the CF of the team in the last 15 years. Raul has *SS as main position.

Remember, top scorer in the history of Champions League, top scorer of RM in the history, and soon he would be top scorer in the history of la liga. This are not statistics, this is just history of the football.

Ulises
 

Re: RAÚL González

Postby Shadowx55x » 2009 Aug 12, 21:38

im somewhat confused, why is Raul being Compared to Di Stefano, and what does that have to do with his stats now.


dont you guys think we're being sidetracked from whats important here lol.

For the good of the forum.......
User avatar
Shadowx55x
 
Posts: 116
Joined: 2008 Dec 08, 20:19
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: RAÚL González

Postby Ulises » 2009 Aug 12, 22:58

Shadowx55x wrote:im somewhat confused, why is Raul being Compared to Di Stefano, and what does that have to do with his stats now.


dont you guys think we're being sidetracked from whats important here lol.


And what does your reply dow with his stats now?¿... I just said that he is a player that will always be in the history of the football, and some people come here to say the contrary...

And i want you to say that, what you write on your sing is not true, even more when PMC reconigsed in public that your quote is NOT true... I didnt ever see you making any constructive argument, if you look a bit in attributes forum and in RM and you will see plenty of mine, explaining people many people how stats work. And also i remember to you that i suggested MAAANY drops for RM players not as many fan-boys out there as you, but well... i can understand that you are not able to make a contructive argument... probably you could not do this never... You just quote what other people post, being not much as a leecher.

So i would like you to delete or just change your sign cause i consider it is ofensive <-- (you can put this phrase on your sign if you consider it funny quoting things about me:) )

Ulises
 

Re: RAÚL González

Postby master smurf » 2009 Aug 13, 03:08

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: - better than Di Stefano

So I assume Inzaghi is better than Zidane and Crespo better than Maradona :ugeek:

You really should know where the ledge is..... and what is wrong with Raul's stats - they look spot on to me.

Raul is a great striker but he also benefited from playing for Real all his career and playing in the CL all the time - if Inzaghi, Van Nistlerooy or Sheva played for a Milan, ManU, Juve all of their careers their numbers would be comparable or arguably better - Goal Record alone cant make you the best player - come now.

Dem no worry We
master smurf
 
Posts: 350
Joined: 2009 Feb 24, 18:43
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: RAÚL González

Postby Shadowx55x » 2009 Aug 13, 04:08

Ulises wrote:
And what does your reply dow with his stats now?¿... I just said that he is a player that will always be in the history of the football, and some people come here to say the contrary...


So i would like you to delete or just change your sign cause i consider it is ofensive <-- (you can put this phrase on your sign if you consider it funny quoting things about me:) )


About Changing my Sig.....nah, i kinda like it :)


on the Raul topic, its an extremely Fair thing to say that about Raul, i too feel he is one of the better players in the History of football.

...with that said, i wouldnt have a problem with his attack going down to 89

For the good of the forum.......
User avatar
Shadowx55x
 
Posts: 116
Joined: 2008 Dec 08, 20:19
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: RAÚL González

Postby spinaL » 2009 Aug 13, 06:38

Ulises wrote:
Shadowx55x wrote:im somewhat confused, why is Raul being Compared to Di Stefano, and what does that have to do with his stats now.


dont you guys think we're being sidetracked from whats important here lol.


And what does your reply dow with his stats now?¿... I just said that he is a player that will always be in the history of the football, and some people come here to say the contrary...

And i want you to say that, what you write on your sing is not true, even more when PMC reconigsed in public that your quote is NOT true... I didnt ever see you making any constructive argument, if you look a bit in attributes forum and in RM and you will see plenty of mine, explaining people many people how stats work. And also i remember to you that i suggested MAAANY drops for RM players not as many fan-boys out there as you, but well... i can understand that you are not able to make a contructive argument... probably you could not do this never... You just quote what other people post, being not much as a leecher.

So i would like you to delete or just change your sign cause i consider it is ofensive <-- (you can put this phrase on your sign if you consider it funny quoting things about me:) )
Here we go again :roll:

EREDIVISIE SUPPORT
User avatar
spinaL
 
Posts: 931
Joined: 2008 Dec 11, 08:50
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: RAÚL González

Postby Agüero » 2009 Aug 14, 11:43

Ulises wrote:ok i was wrong about that, yes 1 season out of 6 seasons torres that torres is a top player, everyone can have a bad season, but YES, i was wrong.


I just remembered:

In season 2002/2003, Torres scored 14 goals in 31 matches, and Raúl scored 25 goals in 47 matches.
In season 2003/2004, Torres scored 23 goals in 40 matches, and Raúl scored 20 goals in 53 matches.
In season 2004/2005, Torres scored 16 goals in 38 matches, and Raúl scored 13 goals in 43 matches.
In season 2005/2006, Torres scored 13 goals in 40 matches, and Raúl scored 7 goals in 32 matches.
In season 2006/2007, Torres scored 15 goals in 40 matches, and Raúl scored 12 goals in 43 matches.
In season 2007/2008, Torres scored 33 goals in 46 matches, and Raúl scored 23 goals in 48 matches.
In season 2008/2009, Torres scored 16 goals in 28 matches, and Raúl scored 24 goals in 47 matches.

So we got Torres beating Raúl in five seasons out of seven, which is pretty higher than your one out of six. And Raúl played almost twice matches as Torres in this last season. In fact Raúl has played more matches in six of the seven seasons.

I assume the season you don't take into account is 2002/2003, which leaves Torres as the winner in five out of six, and the only one he didn't win, was because he played almost half the matches raúl played, while scoring 0.57 goals per match. Raúl this season scored 0.51 goals per match.

To finish, Torres has scored 0.48 goals per match since he first played in La Liga, while in that time Raúl has scored 0.396.
Just wanted to make it clear.

Please, if I make mistakes in English, correct me, I want to improve.
User avatar
Agüero
 
Posts: 974
Joined: 2008 Dec 15, 00:09
Location: Madrid, Spain
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: RAÚL González

Postby Markulur » 2009 Oct 03, 07:33

Updated first post.

I want to start a discussion here about his Stamina/Condition. He can play in every single match of the season, but being tired always at the minute 60 of the match... We can put a 7 on condition, being Stamina on 78 for example, or puting condition 6 with stamina 80.... Opinions?

Editing La Liga...
User avatar
Markulur
 
Posts: 2377
Joined: 2008 Dec 08, 20:05
Location: Terrassa, Barcelona, Spain
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: RAÚL González

Postby Ace » 2009 Oct 03, 10:00

I'm for the Cond 7 Sta 78 deal ;)

to me, as you said, he can (and want) play lot of matches, but he can't finish them (so he can't deserve an 80) so I agree with 7 and 78

User avatar
Ace
 
Posts: 3080
Joined: 2008 Dec 08, 20:39
Location: Italy
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

PreviousNext

Return to Al-Sadd Sports Club

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests