Cesc Fàbregas

[jurgens]

CLASSIC SET(S): 2003-2005 & 2009-2010 & 2011-2012

[BECKS23LA]

tbh this season i didn't follwed EPL carfully, but i used to watch last seasons and he seemed pretty never dying, he seemed to always give all he can do!

[Ken]

tbh this season i didn't follwed EPL carfully, but i used to watch last seasons and he seemed pretty never dying, he seemed to always give all he can do!

And that was last season mate, he's not even as a hard-worker as Nasri is.

Talking about Nasri, I'm really surprise that his Mentality still on the same value as Cesc, I believe that he work far more harder than Cesc and he can still create something out of nothing when the team is behind.

[Rfuna]

tbh this season i didn't follwed EPL carfully, but i used to watch last seasons and he seemed pretty never dying, he seemed to always give all he can do!

And that was last season mate, he's not even as a hard-worker as Nasri is.

Talking about Nasri, I'm really surprise that his Mentality still on the same value as Cesc, I believe that he work far more harder than Cesc and he can still create something out of nothing when the team is behind.

certainly Nasri is the more 'aggressive' of the two. Fabregas is a battler, but not in the sense that runs at every opponent nearest, in possession of the ball. Cesc's approach is far more laid back.

[Ken]

No your last two statements are thoroughly incorrect, he doesn't always give 120 % and when the team is losing, he isn't the sort of player to inspire the team forward, he is not particularly brave nor does he close down players particularly well, I wouldn't perceive Cesc to be a hard-worker at all, the fact that your suggesting to put him on par with Craig Fagan is laughable. So to summarize

Top Speed: 78
Dribble Accuracy: 83
Dribble Speed: 80
Agility: 84(max.)
Aggression: 76
Team-work: 93/94

Regarding team-work, I would still go for 94 his ability to control play and find team-mates is still the best in the Premier League at the moment, he really is the one who fully 'orchestrates' Arsenal other play-makers like Alonso and Deco don't dictate as much of the play as Fabregas does.

So this is the final suggestion, any argument about this ?

[lfc 4 eva]

I agree that Team Work should be higher than Alonso. Vandeach's explanation is perfect. Personally I have him at 95 in my OF but 94 probably fits our ladders better so I agree.

[pietja]

Cesc is often 1st or 2nd in distance covered, he makes like 12-13km a match (not saying in every match, but a lot of them), so this 78 in mentality is a really strange value for him imo...

[Sekularac]

I'm for MEN 81-82

[Ulises]

Aggression: 76
Team-work: 94.

Agree with this, 95 would be better for me but agree on 94.

Top Speed: 78
Dribble Speed: 80.

As i said i don't think is he should get into yellow numbers about DS, he lost much speed. So, 1 point more in TS, and 1 point less in DS. Being TS: 79, DS: 79, keeping his on the ball speed more or less the same, and being imo more fair to the ladder, and also being more fair to reality cause i don't think that his acc should be over his TS anyway.

Dribble Accuracy: 83
Agility: 84(max.).

I disagree with this, he always lead with the ball well sticked to his foot, no reason to lower it. And about agility as i said before he deserves higher value.

I'm for MEN 81-82

Disagree with this. I think that 80 is fair enough, he has not that intense defensive behave, he cover long distances because he is always supporting his team mates, wich requires being always moving, from his box to the oposite box.

[Tom]

Ulises, calculate his With Ball Speed. With a 78 for his Top Speed and an 80 for his Dribble Speed, his "With Ball Speed" equates to a 62.4 which isn't phenomenally fast really. Furthermore, Fabregas doesn't lose that much speed on the ball at all and can run, with the ball, with a good level of speed (Look over the Arsenal vs Villarreal match, he proved this on quite a few occasions in that match due to his AMF role).

I wholly disagree with raising his Team Work to a 95. Yes, his understanding of his team-mates movements and actions is phenomenal and the fact that he can perform so many blind passes is fantastic but to put him an equal level as someone like Xavi just isn't right! The highest I'd possibly go is a 94, but I'd be more content with a 93 value because Arsenal's fluidity and "1-step ahead passing" isn't solely due to one player, it's the joint effort of the entire creative midfield line. Furthermore, I can't understand why he should sit so far ahead of the likes of Liverani, Xabi Alonso and Senna (who is often overlooked in such discussions just because he isn't a playmaker).

And I disagree with raising his Mentality, Fabregas' main folly is his determination. When Arsenal concede 1-2 goals, Fabregas' head starts to go down and he truly struggles to show determination and the attitude to try and fight back against defeat. In fact, it is this very aspect that is the flaw of most of the Arsenal team (although the likes of Walcott, Sagna and Arshavin prove to be an exception to the rule). It ties in nicely with the Torres discussion, and he's a player who does keep a strong hard and shows a good level of fight when the odds are slim, something that was wholly exemplified in the infamous Arsenal 4 - 4 Liverpool result.

I don't agree to lowering Fabregas' Dribble Accuracy, but I don't agree to raising it too far either. People often misconstrue he word "ball control" and when they look at Fabregas' fantastic first touch they percieve this to be "ball control" which, to an extent, it is but it is not the entire embodiment of it. I do, however, agree to keeping Fabregas' Agility at an 84 as he is reasonably stiff when in control of the ball and his turning circle, surprisingly, can be quite poor.

Right now, Fabregas' Attack-Defence ratio causes greater concern to me than anything else. His inclination to attack, with the current values, is far too much and it needs to be lowered. His Attack needs to be lowered and his Defence raised and a value, that I find quite effective, with an Aggression value of 77, is:
Attack: 74
Defence: 68

I also feel that we need to discuss Fabregas' SPS. His short passes are really quite powerful, like Rosicky, and I'd like to see the thoughts of others on potentially raising it.

[Alcohomicide]

There's a real problem with DS. Some people mistake a player with a high TS and ACC to immediately have good DS and a slowish player to have a bad DS. Some of the slower players actually have superior DS you will find as ofte they're forced to be better on the ball and can't just punt and chase. Fabregas does not look much slower on the ball than off it and showed great DS a few times. I can't see why there would be any problem with 80, or even a smidge higher.



It's 1 dribble, but honestly I've seen him dribble many times and he's no slouch on the ball, he's comfortable and doesn't lose that much speed. I agree pretty much with Gooner's suggestions but will come back to passing power, I hadn't really noticed any problems in game?

[PMC]

absolutely stunning action

[Ulises]

@Gooner: I acept that you have diffrent points of view about his stats, i dont agree with you about atk/def, aggresion, TW, ok but the discussion about DS and TS is a stupid discussion... I only can find two solutions about this... or you missunderstand me, or you are trying to make me stupid...

You are defending this vlaues: TS: 78 and DS: 80 => On the ball speed: 63.03. With Your values!
I am defending this values: TS 79 and DS: 79 => On the ball speed: 63.04 With My values!

My question is: why you say that i am trying to make him slower than his, when my suggestion makes him to be the SAME on the ball speed?¿ Think about it...

You can defend 1 point here or there but don't try to show other people that i am trying to make him slower than he is because with my suggestion he would have THE SAME on the ball speed...

As i said before his ACC shouldn't be imo over his TS, as i don't think he doesn't loose that much speed, as i said before, when you are playing ingame, you can push double time the R1 key, and he will be faster with the ball, but loosing his DA. As it is in real life... He throws the ball further but loosing DA...

I agreed time before with TW: 94
I agreed time before with not lowering DA.
I agree that the values give for mentality were too high, but i gave a chance of agreeing with AT MOST a raise of 1 or 2 points.

I disagree to lowering his ATK... He should be on par (+-1 point) with sneijder, silva, iniesta, park,


EDIT:

In the first match he was the player that covered more distance, again...

[Tom]

Firstly, I haven't defended those values. I have merely said that you should factor in With Ball Speed, I didn't say that I think that his TS should remain at 78. On the contrary, I am more inclined to see an increase like you are, and I'd point to the CL games against Villarreal where he showed a surprising level of speed. As for his DS, I'm not specifically defending an 80 for his DS, I'm defending an increase in his DS for I was the one who suggested an increase in the first place. I am more inclined to put Fabregas on a similar DS value as Pirlo (83). Please stop trying to draw conclusions from my text, I actually put it as quite linear and simple in these sorts of threads so that those who are less accomplished with the english language can understand them.

Why should he be on par with the likes of Sneijder, Silva, Park and Iniesta in his Attack value? They all have a greater level of positional sense than Fabregas and they show decent positional sense on a more frequent basis than Fabregas. Fabregas isn't one to play within the box and take up intelligent positions inside the box in set-piece situations (Granted, he's normally the one taking the set-piece). He is more inclined to sit outside the box, geared towards making an intelligent pass or through ball or even taking a shot at goal. His "attacking intelligence", if you will, comes from his fantastic understanding with his team-mates and this can be misconstrued as being positional sense. Furthermore, how can you justify Fabregas sitting on similar Attack and Response values to Scholes, a player who has proved for over a decade his decent in-the-box judgement and positioning. Particularly when Fabregas sits at a higher Team Work value than Scholes, it'll only make him more of a threat in the box. This isn't a case because, humorously, Fabregas thinks outside the box (Pun most definitely intended!)

[Ulises]

Ok then what values are you suggesting?¿

And other thing, i have seen most part of his games after his injure, and he has scored some goals inside the box, as in the las match with spain, he steps more inside the box than any of the players i mentioned, sneijder, scholes, park, iniesta... And imo has better positional sense than all those players.

BUT probably the combination of TW + ATK (i leave out response as it is more or less equal on those players), makes him to be "better" than those, so due to his high TW value, he should get lower value on ATK not to overrate him. Is this what you are trying to say, dont you?¿

Ok, I can agree with this and accept lower value in ATK than all those.

[Ken]

Why should he be on par with the likes of Sneijder, Silva, Park and Iniesta in his Attack value? They all have a greater level of positional sense than Fabregas and they show decent positional sense on a more frequent basis than Fabregas. Fabregas isn't one to play within the box and take up intelligent positions inside the box in set-piece situations(Granted, he's normally the one taking the set-piece) . He is more inclined to sit outside the box, geared towards making an intelligent pass or through ball or even taking a shot at goal. His "attacking intelligence", if you will, comes from his fantastic understanding with his team-mates and this can be misconstrued as being positional sense. Furthermore, how can you justify Fabregas sitting on similar Attack and Response values to Scholes, a player who has proved for over a decade his decent in-the-box judgement and positioning. Particularly when Fabregas sits at a higher Team Work value than Scholes, it'll only make him more of a threat in the box. This isn't a case because, humorously, Fabregas thinks outside the box (Pun most definitely intended!)

I don't get what you said in the highlight text. Do you basically mean that he simply take set-pieces because he's just not good enough in positional sense for Wenger to let him go inside the box and try to score ? I don't think so, I think it simply that he is one of the specialist at those Free-kick because we mainly use long ball into the center to score a header and Fabregas is one of a few Arsenal players who can deliver a perfect ball in so why shouldn't we let him take the free-kick ?

[Ulises]

When he is not the "playmaker" of the team and he as freedom to atack, so when he plays as AMF, like in spain, he gets into the box and has good positional sense, i would say better than scholes, sneijder, etc... Other thing is that his high TW improoves the positional sense give by the stat ATK, as i think gooner tried to say.

[Tom]

Why should he be on par with the likes of Sneijder, Silva, Park and Iniesta in his Attack value? They all have a greater level of positional sense than Fabregas and they show decent positional sense on a more frequent basis than Fabregas. Fabregas isn't one to play within the box and take up intelligent positions inside the box in set-piece situations(Granted, he's normally the one taking the set-piece) . He is more inclined to sit outside the box, geared towards making an intelligent pass or through ball or even taking a shot at goal. His "attacking intelligence", if you will, comes from his fantastic understanding with his team-mates and this can be misconstrued as being positional sense. Furthermore, how can you justify Fabregas sitting on similar Attack and Response values to Scholes, a player who has proved for over a decade his decent in-the-box judgement and positioning. Particularly when Fabregas sits at a higher Team Work value than Scholes, it'll only make him more of a threat in the box. This isn't a case because, humorously, Fabregas thinks outside the box (Pun most definitely intended!)

I don't get what you said in the highlight text. Do you basically mean that he simply take set-pieces because he's just not good enough in positional sense for Wenger to let him go inside the box and try to score ? I don't think so, I think it simply that he is one of the specialist at those Free-kick because we mainly use long ball into the center to score a header and Fabregas is one of a few Arsenal players who can deliver a perfect ball in so why shouldn't we let him take the free-kick ?

Not at all, I'm saying that because he takes set-pieces he doesn't often have the chance to show where he'll position himself so it becomes a damn sight harder to rate him in this area.

On the subject of long free-kicks from Fabregas, I feel that he needs to work on the height he puts behind the ball. When taking a long free-kick he trys to place the ball within the 6-yard box, as you should, but his free-kicks end up remaining low and at waist height which proves to be ineffective.

Ulises, Team Work doesn't improve a player's Attack at all. Team Work affects a player's understanding of his team-mates, simple as, but can you see how this would be advantageous when a player puts in a cross into the oppositions box?

[Ulises]

Ulises, Team Work doesn't improve a player's Attack at all. Team Work affects a player's understanding of his team-mates, simple as, but can you see how this would be advantageous when a player puts in a cross into the oppositions box?

You have to take in account that i lack in english, when i said that improves i don't mean a bonus (as for example height/weight about balance), what i was trying to say is that he will have an advatage (as you said) if you compare him with other players with the same ATK than fabregas.

It is not the same to pass a ball to a player that has ATK 77 and TW: 80 (at the same RES), than other player with ATK 77 but TW: 95. The player with higher TW, even with the same positional sense, will be more able to recibe the ball.

So fabregas with the same ATK, than sneijder, iniesta, park, etc... will be more dangerous due to his high TW, this is very logical i think

But i still thinking the same, sneijder, iniesta, park, rarely steps on the box, fabregas yes. And this is not due to high aggresion, cause you can see him back recibing the ball from the defense, and 1 minute later you can see him inside the box scoring a goal...

[Spaceman]

No your last two statements are thoroughly incorrect, he doesn't always give 120 % and when the team is losing, he isn't the sort of player to inspire the team forward, he is not particularly brave nor does he close down players particularly well, I wouldn't perceive Cesc to be a hard-worker at all, the fact that your suggesting to put him on par with Craig Fagan is laughable. So to summarize

Top Speed: 78
Dribble Accuracy: 83
Dribble Speed: 80
Agility: 84(max.)
Aggression: 76
Team-work: 93/94

Regarding team-work, I would still go for 94 his ability to control play and find team-mates is still the best in the Premier League at the moment, he really is the one who fully 'orchestrates' Arsenal other play-makers like Alonso and Deco don't dictate as much of the play as Fabregas does.

So this is the final suggestion, any argument about this ?

These look good to me. I feel that currently in game he loses the ball too easily under pressure, the real Fabregas is excellent at retaining possession under pressure and being able to make the pass. I've tried these updates with DS 81/82 and it feels much more like the real Cesc.

[pietja]

so no *tact. dribble in the final suggestions then? most ppl agreed to it i think?