Cesc Fàbregas

[jurgens]

CLASSIC SET(S): 2003-2005 & 2009-2010 & 2011-2012

[Rfuna]

I meant than fabregas is more accurate passer....

i understand your point but here we unfortunatly we are not discussing about Shor Pass Speed, or if italian football is more defensive or fabregas playstyle, we are discussing about if fabregas deserves or not higher value of Shor Pass Accuracy.

i understood that, but I felt as if SPS was being left out for some reason. Right now I agree, Fabregas deserves higher SPA (albeit only by 1pt).

Anyway i agree with you that totti deserves higher value for SPS than fabregas, but i don't understand how can you say that totti deserves 87/88 and fabregas 86, in this case no player would get an orange value in your ladder, and even less a red value...

you're right about that. i guess i'm a little stingy wen it comes to assigning 90+ values

[blackzidane]

Fabregas has better SPA than Rosicky? I know Rosicky has been injured for over a year....but really?

[Ulises]

...

[Rfuna]

So to formalize the suggestion:

SPA: 92 (+1);
2 agrees: Rfuna, ulises
1 disagree: Alcohomicide

who says I agree. Fabregas is fine IMO. Can you imagine how good he'd be in master league after one season... man. my main issue is SPS. I'm thinking, wouldn't a player like Adriano have as a high a SPS as Fabregas if passing into an open space, unchallenenged (i.e. a straightforward, easy pass?). Maybe Adri isn't a very good comparison, but I'm think perhaps if Fabregas has high 80s for SPS, and Pirlo and Xavi in the 90s, then shouldn't all CMFs playing top level football have SPS in the 80s region Right now in serie A there are some CMFs (and DMFs) with mid-70s for SPS (thanks to me ). Remember, this is in regards to SPS, not SPA. Similarly, most CFs have SP over 80.

[Ulises]

So to formalize the suggestion:

SPA: 92 (+1);
2 agrees: Rfuna, ulises
1 disagree: Alcohomicide

who says I agree. Fabregas is fine IMO. Can you imagine how good he'd be in master league after one season... man. my main issue is SPS. I'm thinking, wouldn't a player like Adriano have as a high a SPS as Fabregas if passing into an open space, unchallenenged (i.e. a straightforward, easy pass?). Maybe Adri isn't a very good comparison, but I'm think perhaps if Fabregas has high 80s for SPS, and Pirlo and Xavi in the 90s, then shouldn't all CMFs playing top level football have SPS in the 80s region Right now in serie A there are some CMFs (and DMFs) with mid-70s for SPS (thanks to me ). Remember, this is in regards to SPS, not SPA. Similarly, most CFs have SP over 80.

But why you still messing with SPS, we are discussing other thing wich is DIFFRENT and are not related... Short Pass Accuracy...

And about what you said about how good fabregas would be after one sesason in Master League... This is the MOST stupid argument i have ever hear in this database... We don't make stats thinking about this, in this case every player in this database should be re-edited... This is increadible...

Finally about your argument of SPS. Adriano and many other players are able to perform powerfull short passes (of course, because are really strong players) probably more powerfull than fabregas, but Short Pass Speed is not only how powerfull a player can perform a pass is also related with putting the right power in every pass, so your argument is not 100% right. And it's over middle 80's where players starts to make good at putting the right power in all his passes, and my friend adriano misspowers maaaany passes, and his accuracy is horrible... You have a wrong idea about the meaning of Shor Pass Speed (SPS). And of course you forgeted about the main thing about this stat, wich is how fast a player can perform a pass, and fabregas is over many player about this, but it's his Short Pass ACCURACY his main weapon, and where he makes the diffrence with other WC middfielders...


But AGAIN i repeat to you that we are dicussing SPA, Short Pass Accuracy!

[Rfuna]

But why you still messing with SPS, we are discussing other thing wich is DIFFRENT and are not related... Short Pass Accuracy...

I know, and like I said I disagree with any increase in SPA Fabregas is just fine as is.

And about what you said about how good fabregas would be after one sesason in Master League... This is the MOST stupid argument i have ever hear in this database... We don't make stats thinking about this, in this case every player in this database should be re-edited... This is increadible...

it was a STATEMENT, not an argument.

Short Pass Speed is not only how powerfull a player can perform a pass is also related with putting the right power in every pass

ah, okay.

And of course you forgeted about the main thing about this stat, wich is how fast a player can perform a pass, and fabregas is over many player about this

so its not only the speed of the pass, but like awareness, how quickly a pass can be made, such as in a counter attacking move

But AGAIN i repeat to you that we are dicussing SPA, Short Pass Accuracy!

and AGAIN, I disagree

[chanman]

You know what, I cannot seem to get Cesc to play like himself in PES09. I really don't know what it is. I have tried things like giving him forward arrows, putting him past the half line and I still find him sitting back too relaxed. I don't know what it is, maybe it's because of the pairing with Denilson and using two CMF.

I can say that I notice a difference when I pair him with DMF Song but overall he doesn't get himself involved in attack like I want him to. I don't know if its the stats or what but I felt like I needed to put it out there, after all it might just be me

[josephd18]

Hello there, first post. I used to be a regular at the old forum and I have been a lurker here for some time now. I am quite upset about the level of the forum lately. It's becoming a stat wikipedia, where anyone who doesn't even understand stats can give their opinion and you are not getting the best result. I miss the old days of discussing stats with GL, Fides and the rest.

chanman I registered just to be able to help you a little with your problem. Getting a realistically-looking Fabregas is extremely difficult in PES 2009, I understand exactly what you mean. The game is (one of the only things it actually does right) very accurate when showing the differences of putting a player with another, in this case, Fabregas with Denilson or Song. With Denilson, Fabregas will stay back a little more and help a little when Denilson goes forward, just as he would in real life. Now, when you pair him with Song, he is much more advanced and lets Song do the dirty work. You should have in your Arsenal formation TWO CMs. This is very, extremely important. Now, you should put the first CM (Song or Denilson) behind the half line just barely inside the semi-circle. Fabregas should be past the half line and kissing the outside of the semi-circle with an attack arrow going forward. Hope this helps you a little.

Also I would recommend you chanman to change some of the stats in the first post in your OF.

Stamina: 87 (He is a box-to-box midfielder)
DS: 77 (Just to keep the standards and condition arrows leveled)
Free Kick A: 76 (People only think of direct free kicks when rating this and forget that it also affects corners and long free kicks and such)
Heading: 69 (Has improved but still needs to work on it)
Jump: 67 (Big difference to the first post, Fabregas is extremely lazy in terms of jumpig, at times he won't even jump)
Technique: 91 (This guy is just world class, you will see that with this and the agility and DA and DS you'll have the Fabregas you want)
Mentality: 79 (Has decreased since he's camptain, I know it makes no sense, but thats that and it shouldn't be as low as 78, for condition arrows, you know)
Team Work: 91 (Again condition arrows)

Be sure you have his penalty style as 5.

[jmg721]

Great post....what was your name on the old site. You don't seem familiar to me

[chanman]

Yes great post joseph...thank you this should really help. I remember when playing with Cesc in PES 6 I really felt like he played so realistic and even a little on Pes 08 (even if that game was a mess) but I will see what happens with these slight changes, thank you.

Also do you think that we can add AMF to one of Cesc positions I know he is naturally a CMF. But I know he has played very forward in a few games recently.

[josephd18]

Great post....what was your name on the old site. You don't seem familiar to me

It was also josephd18. I don't remember you there either, but I have read many of your posts here and you make excellent suggestions. I guess that balances with the other 5 users who make unreasonable ones. It will be nice discussing stats with you.

Yes great post joseph...thank you this should really help. I remember when playing with Cesc in PES 6 I really felt like he played so realistic and even a little on Pes 08 (even if that game was a mess) but I will see what happens with these slight changes, thank you.

Also do you think that we can add AMF to one of Cesc positions I know he is naturally a CMF. But I know he has played very forward in a few games recently.

Absolutely, CM is no doubt Cesc's prefered position, but AM is a must also. Wenger has been using him there lately bacause he wants to give more protection to the bad defence. I personally dislike Cesc in that position, he is more man-marked and has less freedom to be the creative one. He did score a couple of goals but he doesn't seem as comfortable as when he is playing CM. With the Spain NT he also plays in an AM role, so AM should also be in his positions.

Please post your observations when you've tested the "new" Cesc.

[Vandeach]

What a way to announce your arrival in the forum Joseph, however I don't agree with everything you've said, I'll start off with stamina, your right in that he's better than fellow deep-lying playemakers Alonso and Carrick but he's not on par with the likes of Wilson Palacios and Scott Parker, however it does need to be raised I could see it being 85 with Micheal Johnson and Papa Bouba Diop. Dribble Speed seems fair. Also free-kicks has little effect on corners LPA and LPS are far more relevant and his values for those are already very high. A 76 puts him on par with Diego Tristan and Andrei Arshavin both of whom are a goalscoring threat from free-kicks and hae scored a few. I also think your being harsh with jump that puts him 1 point above Nwankwo Kanu! He is quite lazy in terms of jumping but that will make him totally useless aerially and he can win some headers, looking at the ladder a 70 seems more reasonable. Technique seems fair but team-work should stay the same his interaction between team-mates and vision is far better than that of Gerrard and should probably be top of the EPL ladder, if anything I'd raise it.

[lfc 4 eva]

Personally I have him at 95 TW as his link up play with team mates is second only to Xavi I think.

[josephd18]

What a way to announce your arrival in the forum Joseph, however I don't agree with everything you've said, I'll start off with stamina, your right in that he's better than fellow deep-lying playemakers Alonso and Carrick but he's not on par with the likes of Wilson Palacios and Scott Parker, however it does need to be raised I could see it being 85 with Micheal Johnson and Papa Bouba Diop. Dribble Speed seems fair. Also free-kicks has little effect on corners LPA and LPS are far more relevant and his values for those are already very high. A 76 puts him on par with Diego Tristan and Andrei Arshavin both of whom are a goalscoring threat from free-kicks and hae scored a few. I also think your being harsh with jump that puts him 1 point above Nwankwo Kanu! He is quite lazy in terms of jumping but that will make him totally useless aerially and he can win some headers, looking at the ladder a 70 seems more reasonable. Technique seems fair but team-work should stay the same his interaction between team-mates and vision is far better than that of Gerrard and should probably be top of the EPL ladder, if anything I'd raise it.

Looking at it that way, both you and lfc 4 eva bring some interesting points to the table in terms of TW and Stamina. I am yet to be totally convinced about the teamwork, but I can see myself accepting it after some further observations. I do howhever disagree completely on the jumping issue. In a very good day he'll win a header and so, but in a normal day, in a terrible day, he will hardly jump. Fabregas' heading skills (in general, thats taking both jump and heading into account) are not even average. I would dare to say he is the poorest in the Arsenal squad considering height and everything. Wenger knows this and thats why he puts him next to the left post during defending corner kicks. About FK, let's be honest, Fabregas could easily score a free-kick, I have no doubt about that, he doesn't take direct free kicks only becaues there are better players at that, but he surely has the skills to do so. 74 is ok, its in the two point difference, but, I see it kinda low for our Catalan friend.

Nice little bits of discussion here. This is what I like to see! Quality discussion! Thanks Vandeach.

[Vandeach]

I don't think he only jumps on a good day I remember him scoring a header a few weeks back, can't remember against who but he was having a crap game that day(blue arrow) yet still rose well above the crowd, given your jump value he would be the worst in the Premiership aerially bar the overweight Andy Reid and Miroslav Stoch who has dodgy stats anyway. Is 70 really overrating Fabregas' jump?

[quincy_huang]

actually i would put it this way..
I would swap the jump and header stats
I agree that cesc hardly win in a header especially in midfield
But wait, wht stats would directly affect the header challenge in midfield?
its more then just jump and header stats
Height, boby balance and possibly weight should be also consider
With current stats cesc wouldnt win a header against almost all other player which is true in real
But also he will often make silly passes with header under NO pressure which i dont think thats true in real
Im pretty sure that he did make a few header passes back to defender just for reset the attacking role or waste a bit of time

About another point which saying cesc did score a header few weeks ago, i remember it as well but i think it was months before..
The header he scored was coming from a corner kick and the way he scored wasnt much relate to his body balance and jump becoz it was shown that he kind of squeezed to the gap where no one marking him
Its about positioning and header stats
With current stats he can make that kind of positioning but less likely he can score with his head due to lack for accurcy.

after swapping his header and jump stats, i wouldnt say its exactly wht cesc look like but its getting the correct direction

[josephd18]

actually i would put it this way..
I would swap the jump and header stats

after swapping his header and jump stats, i wouldnt say its exactly wht cesc look like but its getting the correct direction

I couldn't agree more with your post. Swapping them would mean he would have 68 for jump (+1 of what I had suggested) adn 73 for heading, which to me seems a little bit too much for him.

How does this look?
Heading: 71
Jump: 67

[Vandeach]

I can live with that . I also disagree about adding attacking midfielder as a position he always seems to look uncomfortable when playing their.

[quincy_huang]

i think the position that you guys said cesc wasn't comfortable is not AMF
to me it was a SS position
if you see the matchs he played as SS u will soon relise how much forward he stand than a normal AMF does

as i said the value swap that i suggested should be a right direction only but the magnitude can be wrong
The header stats should higher then jump stats

[josephd18]

AM, at least to me, is a must, not only because of his recent performances at Arsenal where he has been a AM/SS but more because of the Spain NT.