Shinji Kagawa

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Shinji Kagawa

Postby PES Stats Database » 2009 Mar 15, 11:22

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby čale » 2012 Mar 17, 19:03

i'm aware of that, in fact, i was watching that game too, but the thing is, he just doesn't make those kind of passes with that amount of weight on them regularly, you may see him doing them occasionally like in this instance but most of his passes come from his dribbling and look like simple toe pokes and layoffs after a successful dribble, and the one-two's he often tries are quite strong either, those kind of heavy passes by him are a rarity, while i'm not neglecting his ability to do them as i'm confident he's able to do them when he wants the thing is that he just doesn't...

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby Kruger13 » 2012 Mar 20, 14:44

I want to give him a update, so here are my ideas:

-ATT: 79 --> 81/82 // He is very smart creating, moving to assist or to be assisted. Good positioning.
-TS: 85 --> 80 // Similar as Götze, never showed a really high speed at long distances or maintain his burst through them.
-RES: 82 --> 77 // Like konami default value, responsiveness isn't part of his game. Nothing more to say.
-DA: 84 --> 85 // Control the ball very close to his feet. Again like Konami default value.
-SPS: 81 --> 79/78 // He passes are most of times weak, lacks of power.
-LPS: 79 --> 78 // Same as SPS.
-SA: 76 --> 78 // He is more accurate than current, he lacks of ST.
ST: 77 --> 75 // He has not a good shot technique, hard to see him making clean connections.
SP: 82 --> 78/79 // He doesn't shoot with power, prefer accurate & weak shoots, are mainly what he shows. Konami rates him at 69.
TECH: 84 --> 87 // Good first touch, he control balls easily and kills them too.
MENT: 80 --> 75/76 // Honestly, never see him as a guy with fighting spirit against adversity or something similar. Even white numbers.
TW: 78 --> 83/84 // Very supportive, as AMF almost all BVB plays pass through his feet.

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby KillaKlo » 2012 Mar 20, 15:32

MENT: 80 --> 75/76 // Honestly, never see him as a guy with fighting spirit against adversity or something similar. Even white numbers.

What? I heavily disagree with that. He works his ass off for the team in every single match. It's incredible how much he's running in the defense, what long tracks he goes, even in the last minutes.

And I think he is a much better player in difficult match-situations. Look at his goal against Leverkusen. When Dortmund is in lead, he gets pretty wasteful with scoring chances, he isn't as concentrated as before. He is better when he have to, I think. So I think a good Mentality value is a must.

The responsiveness: That value has a main impact on how the play can intercept passes, hasnt it? Kagawa is top class in this point. It's beautiful how he relentlessly closes passing channels for the opponent defenders. He doesnt actually intercept very much passes but with his very clever movement he forces his opponents to play blind long balls again and again. I don't know if this is more Defense or Response - I assume it's a bit of both. But as he isn't an exceptional tackler, we can not give him a huge Def value, so he have to get a good Response value too, I think. I'd rather increase it.

I think he is defensively as important as he is offensively for Dortmund. For me, he is one of the best pressing-players of the world. And beside his Def and Stamina, Response and Mentality are the values that have to represent this.

Maybe we should rather reduce his attack value a little bit, if he plays too well with high Mentality and Response. That could also reflect that he is sometimes too ineffecient around and in the box. (You are right that he is intelligent, but I don't know...his timing isn't the best, sometimes he misses good passing and shooting opportunities...he could be more efficient.)

The other changes look good to me. I think we could even go for higher gap between SA and ST.

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby čale » 2012 Mar 20, 16:09

well those really sum up what i suggested for him on the last page:

Kruger13 wrote:I want to give him a update, so here are my ideas:

-ATT: 79 --> 81/82 // He is very smart creating, moving to assist or to be assisted. Good positioning.
-TS: 85 --> 80 // Similar as Götze, never showed a really high speed at long distances or maintain his burst through them.
-RES: 82 --> 77 // Like konami default value, responsiveness isn't part of his game. Nothing more to say.
-DA: 84 --> 85 // Control the ball very close to his feet. Again like Konami default value.
-SPS: 81 --> 79/78 // He passes are most of times weak, lacks of power.
-LPS: 79 --> 78 // Same as SPS.
-SA: 76 --> 78 // He is more accurate than current, he lacks of ST.
ST: 77 --> 75 // He has not a good shot technique, hard to see him making clean connections.
SP: 82 --> 78/79 // He doesn't shoot with power, prefer accurate & weak shoots, are mainly what he shows. Konami rates him at 69.
TECH: 84 --> 87 // Good first touch, he control balls easily and kills them too.
MENT: 80 --> 75/76 // Honestly, never see him as a guy with fighting spirit against adversity or something similar. Even white numbers.
TW: 78 --> 83/84 // Very supportive, as AMF almost all BVB plays pass through his feet.


what i said:

cale1991 wrote:have to say that i'm quite surprised with such a low TECH value, he's been showing in recent matches the ability to kill long balls instantly and difficult passes in a single an easy touch of the ball, and he's been doing that the whole season, he may be a bit inconsistent in it, but he's just flawless IMO, for example just in todays match he's controlled at least 3 balls inside the penalty area with a man on his back with the slightest ease you could possibly see from a pro footballer. i don't open up a lot of BuLi threads but i'm quite surprised that he's an 84, definitely an 88 at least from my point of view...

also his TS is quite generous, he's never showed almost any kind of real pace on long runs and generally avoids them and looks for short bursts of pace to get away from his marker, definitely not over an 80 with such a high value he's able to constantly outsprint most players and definitely more than 90% of CB's in the league which just isn't true, on longer runs he's quite vulnerable and as i've said, he tries to avoid those kind of situations as he's aware of his pace.

and just a few more lesser things, his SPS is no way a yellow value, most of his passes lack on weight and are under-hit making them an easy prey for the oppositions defenders, he just lacks the ability to put proper weight on a pass simple as that.

Regarding his shooting, i feel that he's a bit more better than a 76 for SA would suggest, his main problem is hitting the ball cleanly and you can easily see that he's struggling on getting the right amount of power on his shots when going for a hard shot, mostly fumbling and not hitting the ball cleanly making his overall accuracy look bad while in fact his placed shots and curled efforts from outside the box are quite great and show his decent accuracy and mainly go for the corners, as he simply can't shoot properly when under pressure or when trying to put power on his shots, for that reason i'd go for something like 78/74 for his shooting stats.


And:

cale1991 wrote:i'm aware of that, in fact, i was watching that game too, but the thing is, he just doesn't make those kind of passes with that amount of weight on them regularly, you may see him doing them occasionally like in this instance but most of his passes come from his dribbling and look like simple toe pokes and layoffs after a successful dribble, and the one-two's he often tries are quite strong either, those kind of heavy passes by him are a rarity, while i'm not neglecting his ability to do them as i'm confident he's able to do them when he wants the thing is that he just doesn't...


@Killaklo

i'd rather say that his pressing game comes from his DEF value and STA, sure he's a great interceptor for an AMF but that's what he'll be with that kind of value (77/78) with a yellow value (82) and a yellow ATT he'll be going too much in the box and looking for rebounds and in the defensive phase he'll be way to occupied with intercepting than he usually is given his 50+ DEF rating, putting him on a mid green will just keep that in balance in both attack and defence.

Fixer wrote:No wonder there's a 'penetration' stat, all of them players look like rapists

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby KillaKlo » 2012 Mar 20, 16:24

cale1991 wrote:i'd rather say that his pressing game comes from his DEF value and STA, sure he's a great interceptor for an AMF but that's what he'll be with that kind of value (77/78) with a yellow value (82) and a yellow ATT he'll be going too much in the box and looking for rebounds and in the defensive phase he'll be way to occupied with intercepting than he usually is given his 50+ DEF rating, putting him on a mid green will just keep that in balance in both attack and defence.

As i said, I'm not sure if a yellow Attack is necessary. But another way to balance it would be the aggression then, I think he could get a very low aggression because he usually drops deep a lot.
Defensively, I'm not sure what you mean by "too occupied with intercepting". Instead of doing what?

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby s-cobar » 2012 Mar 20, 16:27

just short if there is a value who is definitely needed then a yellow attack value

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby s-cobar » 2012 Mar 21, 10:41

We should some up the suggestions of Helios, Kruger, Cale and Killa and try to find a balance between of all them.

just a short thing - Aggression has nothing to do, if he player drops back alot. Also if you use a classic Romario with a high aggression he will drops back to the meidfield - it`s just about with how much aggressive power he will run to the offense and that he use every opportunity to do it. there is an explantion in a thread

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby čale » 2012 Mar 21, 12:02

@seb

yeah i know that about AGG, but since we haven't reached any kind of general consensus on it, i've decided to stick with the current way of rating AGG until we decide as a whole to embrace the new definition. ;)

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby Helios » 2012 Mar 21, 14:24

I think we should avoid making drastic changes (as a general principle) unless it's really justified. My point is if there is a boost/drop in form, our stats would still reflect the player and last longer before an update is required.

-RES: 82 --> 77 // Like konami default value, responsiveness isn't part of his game. Nothing more to say.


A guy with such a high scoring figures cannot have a 77 for response, figures that cannot be achieved exclusively with a high value in attack + excellent shooting stats. Some of his goals were truly "poacher-like" ones. He had a 79 in my initial set but as his profile was growing in Bundesliga people wanted an increase. It's true that he is kinda sloppy in midfield and loses concentration many times but he is quite sharp in the box.

As for Konami, they're no reference. It's true that they did a half decent job on his default stats (The least you'd expect considering he is marketing the game, doing movements and appearing on the Japanese cover). :roll: But there is NO excuse to their poor job in his earlier versions, he had truly pathetic stats even though those who watched him long enough can tell you there is no difference between Kagawa in 2009 and the present day one, perhaps he slightly improved collectively (TW, passing) and slightly worsened individually (beating defenders with dribbles, quick movements) but that's all.

They have shown their bias and eurocentrist vision of football many times, giving decent stats to Asian players only once they move to European clubs.

He is no 77 guy and neither is Nagatomo, but that's an other matter. Let's settle for a 79 (-3) for now and we can bring this matter into discussion by the end of season if necessary.

As for dropping a lot and helping with defensive tasks, arrows + higher defense (but not too high) can easily achieve this, no need to touch his aggression, lowering Agg would only make him more "static" as a player. He is very mobile, continuous movement, hardly stops jogging. That's partly why he covers so much distance per game and intercepts many balls.
-TS: 85 --> 80 // Similar as Götze, never showed a really high speed at long distances or maintain his burst through them.


You have totally omitted his off-ball movement and he's quite fast without a ball, making those runs of his, his peak speed is superior to Götze. But I guess it's fair to reduce it to a 83 (-2), yet again the value he had when he just arrived to Dortmund.

TECH: 84 --> 87 // Good first touch, he control balls easily and kills them too.

The gap between him and Götze isn't that big, but a 86 is just enough, he's by no means superior technically to Honda.

TW: 78 --> 83/84 // Very supportive, as AMF almost all BVB plays pass through his feet.

As for TW a +3 increase (to a 81) should be enough, he doesn't have that sort of maturity in his game just yet and there are still many instances of mis-connection with his teammates, not to mention his tendency (more often than not) to go for the solo solution when he's near the box.

MENT: 80 --> 75/76 // Honestly, never see him as a guy with fighting spirit against adversity or something similar


I propose a 78/77. His period of misform is more due to lack of confidence in his self abilities than a problem of skills, he spent hours and hours reading the Internet forums and bad things that people written about him, it affected him a lot, but the support he got from his club and his coach helped him to get through those post-injury difficult times.
DA: 84 --> 85 // Control the ball very close to his feet. Again like Konami default value.

Fine.

-SPS: 81 --> 79/78 // He passes are most of times weak, lacks of power.

Ok for a 79.

-SA: 76 --> 78 // He is more accurate than current, he lacks of ST.
ST: 77 --> 75 // He has not a good shot technique, hard to see him making clean connections.

Agreed.

SP: 82 --> 78/79 // He doesn't shoot with power, prefer accurate &

weak shoots, are mainly what he shows. Konami rates him at 69.


That 69 is ridiculous beyond belief, he wasted many shots because he over-hit the ball, check the highlights of his first Bundesliga game this season for some examples. To score some of his goals in game you'd need a decent amount of power. Like that lob of his from +40 meters of distance, it's more about accuracy and curl but it still requires some power :

Image

I agree to a 79 with some reserves though.

-LPS: 79 --> 78 // Same as SPS.

I think the current value is good as it is. He scored a "straight" corner kick in Japan :

Image

Without a significant burst of power it wouldn't be possible. ;)

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby Helios » 2012 Mar 21, 14:33

@A quick summary :

Attack: 80/81(+2/+3)
Defence: 53 (+1)
Stamina: 85 (-2) I think people have overestimated his stamina, the current value is for sure too optimistic.
Top Speed: 83 (-2)
Response: 79 (-3)
Dribble Accuracy: 85 (+1)
Short Pass Speed: 79 (-2)
Shot Accuracy: 78 (+2)
Shot Power: 79 ?? (-3)
Shot Technique: 75 (-2)
Technique: 86 (+2)
Mentality: 77 (-3)
Teamwork: 81 (+3)

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby Kruger13 » 2012 Mar 21, 15:03

I like Helios sum up, it summarizes and standardizes almost all opinions, new standards and reflects Kagawa. Fine with his suggestions about my values, is much better when more people participate on a discussion, we reach to a best result. I'm sorry for my poor arguments on my previous post, it was like a "bump" post with some ideas (clear and unclear) and trying to develop discussion.

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby Rogatto27 » 2012 Mar 22, 15:10

Response: 7???

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby KillaKlo » 2012 Mar 22, 15:26

I can agree with everything, except for the lower Stamina. Bender and Großkreutz are the only players of Dortmund who run more than him, while he makes more fast runs. He beats the 12km distance regularly. I think the 87 in Stamina is the minimum for him.


Response 7 is too high, should be 4 or 3! :D

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby kuer86 » 2012 Mar 27, 11:15

I`m not really good in making stats, but i think he is a better player than this stats show, he is playing great this season and phenomenal in the last weeks. He scored 11 goals and gave 9 assists in 24 games and i dont think this is possible with these stats...

sorry for my bad english

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby s-cobar » 2012 Mar 27, 12:26

it`s true what you said - with your arguments - you`re not a good statsmaker

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby kuer86 » 2012 Mar 27, 14:05

i know that my argument are no arguments to change the one or the other stat...i just wanted to say that his stats seem a little bit low to me , for example in attack and response...no reason to be harsh...its still only a remark what i think and not like "increase every stat by 2" or sth...just that they dont seem right for me

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby s-cobar » 2012 Mar 27, 15:18

ok honestly, he plays a fantastic second half - no doubt. but we`ve to consider the whole season, also his set as a whole, his main strenghts and the form of the whole team. so he did a fantastic game vs Köln, no doubt, but watch that the defenders of Köln weren`t on the field at all. three or four meters between a defender an an attacker isn`t BL level. that`s a shame for a defender. nice goal, unbelievable, no doubt. but we rate him with a good ST and it was also a nice shot. but he don`t do it every week.

for response, don´t think that it is the biggest point of his game - if I see a player like Götze or Müller who lives much more by their response. kagawa lives by speed, by the advantage to be the free roaming character in the three man offensive, by a great back with kehl and Bender. so at the end we`ve to consider all of these different points. and it`s much more than just statistics

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby kuer86 » 2012 Mar 27, 15:40

ok, i understand that...its just my opinion and i was really impressed by him in the last couple of weeks...always reacting quick, always dangerous, good touches and good shots

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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby RedDevil17 » 2012 Apr 12, 21:41

viewtopic.php?f=903&p=382813&sid=88cf399fe0391e2673cf8583bb7cbd78#p382813 nice set for Kagawa by TBD. WHat yopu think?

Spoiler: show
Club: Borussia Dortmund
Name: Shinji Kagawa
Shirt Name: KAGAWA
Number: 23
Positions: AMF★, SMF, SS
Overall Rating: AMF --> 84'', SMF--> 89'', SS --> 81''

Nationality: Japanese
Age: 23 (17/03/1989)

Height: 172 cm
Weight: 63 kg

Injury Tolerance: B
Foot: R
Side: B

Attack: 82
Defence: 55
Balance: 74
Stamina: 87
Top Speed: 84
Acceleration: 86
Response: 78
Agility: 90
Dribble Accuracy: 88
Dribble Speed: 88
Short Pass Accuracy: 82
Short Pass Speed: 80
Long Pass Accuracy: 80
Long Pass Speed: 79
Shot Accuracy: 78
Shot Power: 78
Shot Technique: 76
Free Kick Accuracy: 77
Curling: 84
Header: 73
Jump: 78
Technique: 87
Aggression: 83
Mentality: 75
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 82

Condition/Fitness: 7
Weak Foot Accuracy: 7
Weak Foot Frequency: 7

SPECIAL ABILITIES:
★ Dribbling
★ Reaction
★ Passing

PLAYER INDEX CARDS:
P06 - Mazing Run
P14 - Free Roaming
S07 - Shoulder Feint Skills


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Re: Shinji KAGAWA

Postby s-cobar » 2012 Apr 12, 21:53

The set of TBD isn`t bad, but imo he goes a bit over the top, so for me it`s that I´m just more close with the current set mostly created by Helios, Kruger, Cale - I like the balance, how he acts. I don`t see him so agile like TBD, for example. But I`ll post a reply in more detail.

maybe other have a different oppinion.

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