Dixie DEAN | 1926-1932

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Dixie DEAN | 1926-1932

Postby Brezza » 2008 Dec 10, 16:02

Image

Club: Everton



Growth type: Early/Lasting

INFO:

One of the greatest goal scorers in British football history, Dixie Dean was a focused striker. His statistics speak for themselves: 379 goals in 438 games, 28 goals in FA Cup matches, and 18 in only 16 caps for the national team. In his first five games of his International career he scored 12 goals. His most incredible feat was 60 goals in only 39 games during the 1927-28 season. The title of 59 goals was held by Middlesborough's George Camsell. On the last day of the 1927-1928 season, Dixie Dean entered the game vs. Arsenal with 57 goals, and broke the record with his hat-trick goal, heading the ball in during the closing minutes of the match. Considered one of the toughest players, he did all of this despite serious injuries sustained from a motorcycle accident at the age of 19, and once loosing a testicle in a challange.

Matt Busby played against Dean several times. In his autobiography he pointed out:
"To play against Dixie Dean was at once a delight and a nightmare. He was a perfect specimen of an athlete, beautifully proportioned, with immense strength, adept on the ground but with extraordinary skill in the air. However close you watched him, his timing in the air was such that he was coming down before you got anywhere near him, and he hit that ball with his head as hard and as accurate as most players could kick it. Defences were close to panic when corners came over. And though he scored a huge tally of goals with headers he was an incredibly unselfish and amazingly accurate layer-off of chances for others. He was resilient in face of the big, tough centre-halves of his clay - and I cannot think of one centre-half today to match up with that lot, though it was often the unstoppable force against the immovable object - and he was a thorough sportsman."


Eddie Hapgood, the Arsenal full-back agreed:
"Dixie Dean, a wizard with his feet, but just as deadly with his head, as strong as a house, and just as hard to knock off the ball, as clean in his play as a new pin, a great sportsman, and a trier to the end. Dixie was always a tough handful, not only because he was so big and fast, but because he used to roam out on to the wings, taking the centre-half with him, and, frequently, slipping him, making it extremely hard for the rest of the defence to keep some sort of order."



VIDEOS:




ADDITIONAL LINKS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Dean

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FdeanD.htm

http://www.nsno.co.uk/43p-Dixie-Dean.html

http://www.talkfootball.co.uk/guides/football_legends_dixie_dean.html

Last edited by Brezza on 2009 Jul 10, 03:47, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1927-28

Postby dixie1sixty » 2008 Dec 14, 02:13

surely 60 goals in one season warrants 99 on SA. Think about it he must have stuck away nearly every chance he had that season whilst a lumbering centre half was about to clatter into him. Look at his goals to games ratio surely a higher SA. If Dean doesnt deserve 99 then no one does!

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1927-28

Postby Oriello » 2008 Dec 14, 16:01

Well he already has the perfect rating for Heading, I have no idea how he scored those 60 league goals, but I assume due to the header rating that many must have been through that, in combination with the *Positioning star and 96 in Attack. He is also by the stats not just a poacher but actually very skillful, with these stats overall he will be able to man handle mnay defences, and dribble a bit, so it is not as if he is soley relying on his shooting alone, which itself is formidable already, with that kind of Shot Technique and Shot Power he will be scoring Ibrahimovic style goals with Van Nistelrooy +1 accuracy.

Also consider that the quality and style of football back then, football was far more oreinted on teams attacking and little thought was given to defensive tactics or organisation, and really the defenders and goalkeepers were several grades lower than modern standards. Compare to someone like Gerd Muller, who contended with actual defense that were marshalled and drilled, manned with not only ruthless defenders but ones that were techinically proficent in the art of defending. What he accompished was in a far more difficult climate.

So my point is that I think he should not be raised to 99 in Shot Accuracy. :P He already has 8 Consistency, so that means he is legendary in his consistency, and without video (I know there is very little) we cannot judge whether he really placed every shot well, and into corners, as a perfect SA would require.

According to wikipedia it was 67 goals in total in 46 games during the 1927/1928 season. A season before it was 36 in 36 and a season after 1928 it was 27 goals in 33 games. Then by 1931/1932 he managed another 47 goals in 40 games (I am not including the previous season as that was second division).

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1927-28

Postby dixie1sixty » 2008 Dec 14, 16:32

I agree it was a much different style of play back then, but if you are insinuating it was easier to score back then due to shoddy defences I can't disagree with you more. I think it takes more skill and accuracy when the defender can basically rugby tackle you to the ground. The defenders Dean had to manouvre around where massive brutes who were allowed at the time to kick him into touch as much as they like. Consider that factor and then think of how many goals he scored. AS mentioned above he lost a testicle in a tackle and the perpetrator was not so much as booked.

Also if all defences were poor quality surely every striker would have been banging in 60 a season.

Plus there is no way you can compare Ibrohimovic or RVN to Dean. They are simply not in Dean's league and never will be.

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1927-28

Postby Oriello » 2008 Dec 14, 18:02

I agree that the defenders in that era were known for their brutality, but Dean already has 89 Balance to help him combat massive brutes, and in addition to that he has supreme positioning and poaching skills that will allow him in PES to out manuver and essentially out smart the average defenders of the 20' and 30's. As defenders may have been brutal and tough, and marked well but they were deficent in actual quality defending (reading the game, positioning, defensive team work). With the current stats Dean is in a league all his own in the quality he would have had on a pitch back in the 20/30's, and defenders did not regularily contend with great forwards, as overall the quality of football back then was poor, and players like Dean, Merdith, or Leonidas were not just above average, they were supreme exceptions to the general standard of an average player.

And if not every player was scoring 60 goals (Dean only did this in one season, it in itself shows that even with his skill he could not replicate that sort of feat constantly), this was due to formations of 2-3-5 where the attack would have been spread out rather than focused as it is in modern foot ball in 4-4-2's or 5-4-1's, and not every forward had Deans abilities.

I was not comparing the type of strikers that Ibrahimovic and van Nistelrooij are to what Dean was, but I was comparing theri shooting stats, Ibra: SP 89, ST 94 and Ruud: SA 97. Dean already has a combination of Ruud's great accuracy +1 point and Ibra's ability to score wonderful and difficult angled goals. This alone makes him supremely lethal in PES, combine Deans shooting stats with the rest of his package and you have one of the deadliest forwards on this database.

In any case Shot Accuracy is with how well a player places his shots, and as I stated above since there is a lack of footage to confirm that Dean was the best ever player in the history of football at placing his shot exactly where he meant to each time, there is no reason to raise it to 99, as 98 in Shot Accuracy is not exatcly a bad rating to have.

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1927-28

Postby Dino » 2008 Dec 14, 18:10

POSTER#1 wrote:and once loosing a testicle in a challange.

Yikes :o :shock:

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1927-28

Postby dixie1sixty » 2008 Dec 14, 18:24

Oriello wrote:I agree that the defenders in that era were known for their brutality, but Dean already has 89 Balance to help him combat massive brutes, and in addition to that he has supreme positioning and poaching skills that will allow him in PES to out manuver and essentially out smart the average defenders of the 20' and 30's. As defenders may have been brutal and tough, and marked well but they were deficent in actual quality defending (reading the game, positioning, defensive team work). With the current stats Dean is in a league all his own in the quality he would have had on a pitch back in the 20/30's, and defenders did not regularily contend with great forwards, as overall the quality of football back then was poor, and players like Dean, Merdith, or Leonidas were not just above average, they were supreme exceptions to the general standard of an average player.

And if not every player was scoring 60 goals (Dean only did this in one season, it in itself shows that even with his skill he could not replicate that sort of feat constantly), this was due to formations of 2-3-5 where the attack would have been spread out rather than focused as it is in modern foot ball in 4-4-2's or 5-4-1's, and not every forward had Deans abilities.

I was not comparing the type of strikers that Ibrahimovic and van Nistelrooij are to what Dean was, but I was comparing theri shooting stats, Ibra: SP 89, ST 94 and Ruud: SA 97. Dean already has a combination of Ruud's great accuracy +1 point and Ibra's ability to score wonderful and difficult angled goals. This alone makes him supremely lethal in PES, combine Deans shooting stats with the rest of his package and you have one of the deadliest forwards on this database.

In any case Shot Accuracy is with how well a player places his shots, and as I stated above since there is a lack of footage to confirm that Dean was the best ever player in the history of football at placing his shot exactly where he meant to each time, there is no reason to raise it to 99, as 98 in Shot Accuracy is not exatcly a bad rating to have.


He doesnt have 98 though mate he's got 96. How can you say for definite it was of a lower quality though thats what I don't get?? Because i think that is very unfair on players who played back then. I'm sure if you asked those who played at the time if it was lwoer quality Im sure they would disagree with you. Your right we havnt got much video evidence but what we have got is incredible statistics which provide us with a numerical picture as to just how accomplished William Ralph Dean was.

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1927-28

Postby Vandeach » 2008 Dec 14, 20:37

Footballers wheren't as intelligent back then for example football in th early 1900's allowed goalkeepers to handle the ball anywhere on the pitch but it was not until 1912 until Leigh Richmond Roose actually thought about just taking the ball out of the box and carrying it into the net(and even he was a qualified doctor of bacteriology) , just one example of how players are far more intelligent nowadays, so if he have a look at the average Modern day Defender and the average Defender from the 1920's-1930'shere's how I think it would pan out.

The Average Modern day Defender would be higher in:
Defence
Response
Top Speed
Acceleration

Whereas the Average defenders from the 1920's-1930's would be higher in:
Balance
Mentality

Dean's dribbling accuracy could actually be higher, he was well known for taking on defenders with his pace and dribbling ability.

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1927-28

Postby Oriello » 2008 Dec 14, 22:24

I swear that the value was 98 when I was looking at the stats earlier today...

I cannot say with 100% certanity anything, and thus I am not being definate as I was not around then. But of what I have read and listended to, older generations always remark on how modern (depending what generation) football is better in general, I am not referring to any particular aspect of the game, but over all.

As selectively, footballers before the late 50's could all be considered to be generally more affluent in being quality dribblers, as the game then was centred around 11 indivudals showcasing their talent and when they could not dribble anymore then they passed the ball off. The early 60's were regarded as being the advent of defensive mindsets on a global scale, and many teams began to abandon indivudualistic approaches to the game and 'teams' were formed, mainly to assist in cooperative defending and team oriented counterattacks, not showcasing of player skill but a collaborative effort and result. Pinnacled at the moment by current top teams (Manchester United, definately Barcelona), who have become masters of possesion and use team tactics to subdue inferior opponents, relying on individual brilliance in crunch matches. Also with this focus on the defensive side of the game greater and more intelligent defenders arose, arguable the 60's to 80's saw the greatest qaulity of defenders, where players such as Terry or Vidic might be regarded as average Image.

Also remeber that many footballers pre-war footballers were not professional footballers, they were workers in factories or miners, and would only play as a secondary form of income and for fun. Very few players earned enough to be able to focus soley on just being footballers, Dean with his talent may have been one, but on the whole. Ordinary players were not supported by the infrastructure of today's 'big buisness' football and were not seen as sources of revenue that need to be primed and sharpened to maximum potential.

By modern standards footballers have become fanatastic physical specimens, with great athletic ability, significantly above that of the late 70's and early 80's. This leap in athletiscm in the game has also seen arguably a decline in the quality of the footballers themselves, especially evident in the type of defenders that now dominate most teams, large (185+ cm), fast, strong players who for the life of them cannot claim a ball from a tackle from behind, save for Nesta ;).

In anycase try this Dean out in PES as is and he will absoultely dominate most teams already, and if you play with a 2-3-5 or 3-2-5 like I sometimes due games of 11-7 can happen, usually though the games are under 10 goals :P.

But yeah I am unsure why it is now 96...

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1927-28

Postby dixie1sixty » 2008 Dec 14, 22:26

Vandeach wrote:Footballers wheren't as intelligent back then for example football in th early 1900's allowed goalkeepers to handle the ball anywhere on the pitch but it was not until 1912 until Leigh Richmond Roose actually thought about just taking the ball out of the box and carrying it into the net(and even he was a qualified doctor of bacteriology) , just one example of how players are far more intelligent nowadays, so if he have a look at the average Modern day Defender and the average Defender from the 1920's-1930'shere's how I think it would pan out.

The Average Modern day Defender would be higher in:
Defence
Response
Top Speed
Acceleration

Whereas the Average defenders from the 1920's-1930's would be higher in:
Balance
Mentality

Dean's dribbling accuracy could actually be higher, he was well known for taking on defenders with his pace and dribbling ability.


I agree in an increase in dribbling stats. I am confused however as to how you can make such confident assertions about the quality of football back then when you have no evidence to justify it with?? Just your opinion at the moment mate...subjective

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1927-28

Postby Oriello » 2008 Dec 15, 02:08

I am probably writing too much for my own good :P.

I stated at the begining of what I wrote that I am not 100% certain about anything, and that I am only going by what I have read and heard in documentaries and from others who talk of pre-war football. I have no evidence because the game was barely filmed back then, and I am unlikely to suddenly link a youtube link to back up what I have learned.

My main point from my long winded response, was that footballers back then were not professionals, at least not every single one of them, only Players of great skill could command wages enough as to not to have to take on extra work. Since they were not soley dedicated to practicing and improving themselves individually and as teams as they were working in other jobs, it is doubtful that they could match the smae standards of modern professionals, especially if you take into account that modern football in multi-million dollar industry, where players not only train and pratice regualrily to be excellent at what they do, the money factor has teams competing on levels off the pitch, to help give players and their team a edge where ever they can find one. Someone stated an example on the old forum of how Rooney has a special medical expert to help him improve his peripheral vision to help him see and link up with team-mates better, that sort of obsessive perfection of footballers did not exist in the 20's, when the game was still thought to be more of a sport rather as a buisness, the light that it is taken under currently.

They were the modern equivalents of some lower league players of today, who may be a Police officer during the week and a footballer on the weekened, but do not have actual footballing careers. But yes there were a few, the legends that we talk about today who were naturally gifted and a grade above and beyond all the others, Dean was one such individual. Similar to what might happen if C. Ronaldo began playing in Leaugue One, he would blow away spectators with skill that was not comparable to the standard.

You are correct that it is subjective, as there is no visual evidence for either of our views, I simply am going by articles describing football of the past.

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1927-28

Postby dixie1sixty » 2008 Dec 15, 13:07

Fair enough. Sometimes though I feel agrieved at the fact people sometimes instantly disregard players such as Dean and say the quality of football back then was poor. I feel the English nation should be proud of such players and if anything encourage the legend rather than trying to dispell it.

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1927-28

Postby Vandeach » 2009 Mar 11, 17:18

I think mentality should be lowered I highly doubt he was Rooney/Tevez type hound perhaps 81/82 and surely he must have had very good agility to evade the 'kicking' defenders of the time.

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1926-1932

Postby Plava Čigra » 2009 Dec 26, 16:53

I've slowly started to work on some of those Before '30s players (I mean on their update, off course). I've already stated that I've updated this player, two weeks ago (in this thread: classics/update-thread-t6274-40.html). I'll give an explanation for some of his stats (if something doesn't sound right, feel free to ask ;)).

1. Now, Heading and Jump was like that when I started this update and I can firmly say he deserves red numbers (99 value for Header can be discussed, but everything under 97 wouldn't do him justice, since he was well ahead of his time in this area). Personally, I think he was on the same level as Kocsis.

2. P16: Dummy Runner was given because I found a fact that he played unorthodoxly for his Era (he ran on to the wing without a ball, distracting his guards, who were confused and, in most cases choose to follow him, therefore leaving a big gap in their defensive line).

3. He knew how to dribble but I couldn't find any special dribble or his behavior in that area (that would completely convince me what card to give), so I left that blank in new Cards. After reading all those texts I assume it was plain body dribbling, but I couldn't find a fact did he tried to dribble two or three guys in a row, so I decided not to guess (if I had to guess a new Card for *Dribbling it would be Mazing Run and/or Speed Merchant and maybe also Incisive Run, but the last one seems most unlikely).

4. Also, his Teamwork was in white (probably updated, because I remember him being in yellow number, when I first visited this site). Now, I've gave him yellow value again, because not only did he confused those guards, he understood his teammates moves, and sometimes even stay on the wing (when he saw there isn't a space for a man with the ball to go through the middle) in order to receive the ball and send usable cross (also an explanation for his green passing value).

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1926-1932

Postby Alcohomicide » 2009 Dec 26, 22:04

Dixie wasn't selfish, from what the people who watched me that I spoke to over the years have told me. Like Totti and Gerrard he just knew that he was the best player and thus relished taking responsibility for the things he was best at and scoring as many goals for his team as possible. I'm told his movement was fantastic and one of his best attributes, his anticipation and ability to sniff out goals was unquestionable. He could score with any foot, his head and knees and any other limb required. :P Not all of his goals were beautiful and crisp but his finishing was very effective and would find the back of the net around 8-9 out of 10 times.

I think one area he deserves a god stat in is response. A defenders nightmare was the ball breaking loose and Dixie pouncing on it. He'd chase after the defenders and make them play it faster than they'd like and could often force errors just by doing this. Dixie's movement is a big part of why he was so effective. He was a very intelligent player from what I've told and his record confirms this. I can't give you shooting or heading values, but his intelligence, speed of thought, decisively quick reactions and understand of the strengths of the players around him was a big factor in why he was such a fantastic player.

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1926-1932

Postby Plava Čigra » 2009 Dec 28, 16:12

After talking with Alcohomicide, I've done some changes in Dixie's stats.

Balance: 89>90,
Response: 93>95,
Heading: 99<97.

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1926-1932

Postby sencesor » 2009 Dec 28, 17:52

Alcohomicide wrote:A defenders nightmare was the ball breaking loose and Dixie pouncing on it. He'd chase after the defenders and make them play it faster than they'd like and could often force errors just by doing this. Dixie's movement is a big part of why he was so effective.


If it's true, he could possibly have a bit higher MEN than 82 no? :|

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1926-1932

Postby Plava Čigra » 2010 Jan 16, 02:36

Now, I would like to hear some opinions on my suggestions, then somebody could test this player in realistic formation and when we've done all that, lock this thread (like Maradona's), because I would like to eventually lock most of the greatest players threads from different Eras, if we emulate them realistically in PES (and only re-open them if somebody has great argument). Now, this is gonna be tough with players for which we didn't watch full games, but we will have to rely on descriptions and try to synchronize players with descriptions as much as possible (off course without tending to overrate).

***

For the suggested changes, I've checked the ladders and I'm gonna try to remember everything I know about him and his Era in football (what I don't comment, means that it's fine in my opinion).

1. Defence: 25>40 - Seems like a major improvement, but if he really knew how to pressure opponents then it can't be just about his Mentality and Response. I gave Blagoje Marjanović 39, because of the similar cause and I think I haven't made a mistake (or at least that's what it looks like when I use him in my PES).

2. Response: 95>96 - One of his main weapons, besides heading and positioning. I think 96 isn't too high value.

3. SA: 95<94 - If I've understood correctly, during some of his prime years, offside rule changed and coaches didn't know how to deal with it, during one period (in that period we have a few players that managed to score over 50 goals per season). Other argument is, that he looked intimidating on the field, and some defenders were a bit afraid of him (and his power), so he didn't had to have such precise shot to score that high number of goals. Also, I've read as something similar as Alcohomicide about his SA and because of all those things I think 94 is ok. For me his main assets were his heading, his reactions, his positioning and his defensive pressuring (last thing, because it was quite rare for his Era).

4. ST: 92>93 - I'll repeat once again that, I've also read similar stories as Alcohomicide about his goal scoring ways. So I would put this Ability 1 point under his SA.

Alcohomicide wrote:I'm told his movement was fantastic and one of his best attributes, his anticipation and ability to sniff out goals was unquestionable. He could score with any foot, his head and knees and any other limb required. :P Not all of his goals were beautiful and crisp but his finishing was very effective and would find the back of the net around 8-9 out of 10 times.


5. Jump: 97<95 - I think he wasn't that good in jumping as much he had good head technique and power in his headers. Also, if we take into concern his Balance: 90, then I think this decrease sounds logical enough (Kocsis is on 95 also).

6. Mentality: 82>86 - I tend to agree with sencesor that he could have higher Mentality from the above mentioned reasons, but not on a Rooney level, for instance (92). So 86 might seem adequate for his playing style.

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1926-1932

Postby matthew » 2010 Jul 20, 16:39

Shouldn't he have the goal poacher card?

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Re: Dixie DEAN | 1926-1932

Postby Plava Čigra » 2010 Jul 20, 17:30

Nope. P15: Goal Poacher is most similar to old *Lines. It doesn't have too much to do with *Scoring if that's why you're asking. ;)

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