Serie A Ladders Discussion

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Serie A Ladders Discussion

Postby Epsi » 2011 Oct 20, 21:09

Serie A Ladders Discussion Thread

Incoming:
- Big Teams Overhaul - Done
- Forwards Attack Overhaul - Done
- SBs Response Overhaul - Done <= to be reviewed
- CBs Stamina Overhaul - Done
- GKs Overhaul

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Re: PES 2012-PDS TW rating comparison

Postby Basilio » 2011 Oct 20, 21:31

Great thread i was just right now searching somewhere to post my thoughts regarding TW.
It seems to be primary off the ball movement, also lovismith did some testing, not sure if i understood it well but the conclution was that defence and attack stats are affected by TW. I believe he conclude that defence and attack determines the effectiveness of their TW, cambiasso have orange TW for example, but poor att and impressive defence, so hell be awesome defensive wise( covering, positioning, etc ) but average attacking, same goes for puyol, bonnuci, pepe, krasic, and other players ratings, they all make sense with this conclution. Selfishness also is taken into account by konami i believe.

Its also worth to mention the fact that konamis new definition for TW is: The higher it is, the better a player be at cooperating with the team and receiving passes. I think the conclution reached is: TW mainly off the ball movement, however there are other little things to be taken into account when rating it, also DEF and ATT determines the effectiveness of TW in their respective area.

For response well....Pirlo is a 76 and krasic 77( rated both in pes 2012 )then also most players are overrated. I got an idea, which i post it on jurgens thread: give all players with no exception, the given values by konami, like that it would be fixed fastly and would be a great base, and then do the necessary changes. That regarding response

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Re: PES 2012-PSD TW rating comparison

Postby jurgens » 2011 Oct 20, 21:52

great thread. theres a few things that need to be kept in mind when trying to decipher konamis ratings. Konami can get one stat quite wrong. For example in pes 6 cambiasso had amazing all round stats for a DMF, but 76 response.. was changed a game or two later, after they had a better view on him as a player. Also they usually only analyse one player once then leave him with the same stats for years... Pirlo has been basically the same for 6 or so games I belive.. Kaka too. They make a few changes here and there, but it's clear when they do this they aren't putting that much effort into re-analysing their games.

Also this is something I've been thinking for a long time now considering Konamis ratings, and after reading a post by jmvp in the daviz luiz thread. A high teamwork player like... Puyol isn't going to make any adventorus passes, hes just gonna pass to the safe easy option. But a player who opens up play with through balls, hes doing basically the opposite? Hes taking the risky option not the "teamwork" option in playing it safe, hes being adventurous.. shouldn't this go against what teamwork does? I mean thats basically ignoring the team build up play aspect... and going out for the unsafe pass.

Also this goes along with basically every player who plays a lot of through balls.. sneijder/pastore/kaka/totti/riquelme/ibra in konami they all have very low teamwork. Seems the low teamwork is also to make them more adventurous in the type of passes they play.... highteamwork = safe passes.... low teamwork + high spa = adventurous passer?

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Re: PES 2012-PSD TW rating comparison

Postby čale » 2011 Oct 20, 22:49

great thread Epsi, looks like Serie A is rated quite well when compared, also regarding the things which jurgens and Basilio said it looks like TW stat goes something like this when affecting ATT and DEF:

ATT --> how well a player is suited to an attacking position
DEF --> how well a player is suited to a defensive position

TW --> equals the % of ATT/DEF and measures his effectivness

example: Player A --> ATT 86 TW 75

TW 75 = his max, and now when converted/added to ATT equals a % of how much a players ACTUAL ATT stat is used when unmarked and which also enables him to find open space/make the right decision/make a correct run/position himself correctly...bla bla...

so when unmarked he actually uses around 75% of his ATT value which is 64, of course then countered by the value of the defenders DEF value and TW value which then gives the %, that is, the chance for the defender to make the correct decision and retrieve the ball, and opposite...

Player B, DEF 90 TW 85

now take the formula from Player A and use it here and you'll get to the conclusion that the defender actually uses 85% of his DEF value which is 76 and now when all of this is inserted equals that the Defender has a 76% chance to retrieve the ball and that the forward has a chance of 64% chance to slip by unnoticed...


i hope i haven't went off-topic now... ;)

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Re: PES 2012-PSD TW rating comparison

Postby Epsi » 2011 Oct 21, 08:14

jurgens wrote:highteamwork = safe passes.... low teamwork + VERY high spa = adventurous passer?


this is what I think after watching a lot of sets.. it's like they try to build upon the classic strategy and movements of the team.. then there are also the cards that make their effect.. but overall I think that it works like this:

high TW = very good interaction with the teammates, good chance of not losing the ball with a pass = safe passes
high TW + very high passing stats + yellow attack = genius like Iniesta, Xavi.. but also Pirlo is on the same values.. but he doesn't move so much as they do.. maybe it's just for the aggression value.
low TW + low passing stats = basically a player who won't pass the ball so much and will do everything he wants without following the team, that's why Koname gave Balotelli TW: 55
low TW + very high passing stats + high attack = playmakers that we're currently rating with very high TW and so we have to invert the trend.. Totti, Cossu, Sneijder, Riquelme, etc..

cale's reading is very interesting btw..

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Re: PES 2012-PSD TW rating comparison

Postby Epsi » 2011 Oct 21, 09:29

PES 2012/PSD

Image

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Re: PES 2012-PSD TW rating comparison

Postby ballmer » 2011 Oct 21, 10:17

This is very interesting. Great thread Epsi!

Recently I'd been noticing that Konami's and PSD's TW values were becoming more and more similarly rated.

If this idea of high TW = safe passes, low TW= risky passes is correct aren't there a few problems? Wouldn't a player with say, 99 SPA and 1 TW be constantly attempting killer balls and, owing to the 99 accuracy, be successful in doing so?

Also, how does this fit in with the idea of off the ball movement that seems to be prevalent at the moment?

Eitherway, you seem to be onto something, there's a pretty clear correlation.

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Re: PES 2012-PSD TW rating comparison

Postby jurgens » 2011 Oct 21, 20:54

Epsi wrote:
jurgens wrote:highteamwork = safe passes.... low teamwork + VERY high spa = adventurous passer?

high TW + very high passing stats + yellow attack = genius like Iniesta, Xavi.. but also Pirlo is on the same values.. but he doesn't move so much as they do.. maybe it's just for the aggression value.


pirlo was first given that TW value back in like pes 5/6 though.. he moved around a lot more back then didn't he? I can't remeber

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Re: PES 2012-PSD TW rating comparison

Postby Epsi » 2011 Oct 22, 11:07

@ballmer: need to test them.. anyway my idea is that there's a sort of "balancing" of stats that emulates players' correct behaviour.. extreme values like 1 and 99 in my opinion doesn't work fine for a testing..

@jurgens: yes, but not so much as a 90 suggests.. following this idea I'd say he could receive a 86-87 for his best days.

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Re: PES 2012-PSD TW rating comparison

Postby Basilio » 2011 Oct 27, 04:38

jurgens wrote:Also this is something I've been thinking for a long time now considering Konamis ratings, and after reading a post by jmvp in the daviz luiz thread. A high teamwork player like... Puyol isn't going to make any adventorus passes, hes just gonna pass to the safe easy option. But a player who opens up play with through balls, hes doing basically the opposite? Hes taking the risky option not the "teamwork" option in playing it safe, hes being adventurous.. shouldn't this go against what teamwork does? I mean thats basically ignoring the team build up play aspect... and going out for the unsafe pass.


I dont know what JMVP was trying to say, but i believe you got it wrong...I think he was simply using common sense, a risky passer means a player who likes to give difficult passes more often, difficult passes require more accuracy and speed, and same the opposite, a safe passer but who does not commit errors while passing or building up, needs more TW, just for going out cleanly. I dont believe he was reffering to anything related to what stat makes what

Also this goes along with basically every player who plays a lot of through balls.. sneijder/pastore/kaka/totti/riquelme/ibra in konami they all have very low teamwork.


Ill say they are just coincidences, messi gives makes plenty through passes but he is given mid yellow passing and mid yellow teamwork, but he may need some tweaking at next version. And as messi, im sure there would be some others players rated contradictory to this sort of conclution, i.e pirlo.


Also can we go on with the response revolution ? any idea ? i think mine should be discussed at least....At least we do know what response does and what standarts to use

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Serie A Ladders Discussion

Postby Epsi » 2012 Mar 08, 17:38

As you can see in the updates I'm revamping the Attack Ladder for CFs and I want to discuss it with you guys.. as parameters I'm counting incisivity in terms of goals and assist and in general consistency on the pitch while attacking (just like how smart a player can be).. I'm also taking in account the other skills of the players (for example I found Di Natale much more effective in terms of goal scored and consistency but Ibra is a real threat and with his attacking intelligence can create everything in every moment.. furthermore Di Natale has very high SA and that helps him a lot to be more incisive in goal occasions)

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Re: Serie A Ladders Discussion

Postby čale » 2012 Mar 08, 17:52

i for one support this completely, the whole league apart from a particular few forwards is rated on how good their positioning is and this has to be changed and a wider and broader scale should be introduced.

P.S. Epsi if you've got the time i'd like to divert your attention to the di Vaio thread ;)

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Re: Serie A Ladders Discussion

Postby Epsi » 2012 Mar 08, 18:13

As I already said to Seb (s-cobar) I want to stretch the ladders a lot and I know you cale are the perfect mate for this job since you always used your own standards (not being influenced by psd ones)..
as to the attack ladder for cfs I'm currently pretty sure about this short ladder in which we have to put the other strikers:
Spoiler: show
95 ibra
93 di natale
92 cavani
90 klose
88 milito
86 pazzini
85 osvaldo
84 borriello, rocchi
83 floccari, calaiò, pellissier, lucarelli
82 amauri, iaquinta, pinilla
81 budan, bergessio
80 caracciolo, destro
77 larrivey, corvia
76 okaka, malonga
74 makinwa


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Re: Serie A Ladders Discussion

Postby čale » 2012 Mar 08, 20:17

well this is my personal ladder from my OF with ALL players which i consider to warrant a yellows number for ATT in Serie A, i felt it would be good for comparison:

95 Ibro
94 -
93 Toto
92 Cavani
91 Totti
90 Klose
89 Matri,
88 ADP, Milito, Gilardino, Pazzo
87 Pippo, Di Vaio, Cassano, Lavezzi
86 Sneijder
85 Pato, Quags, Vucinic, Jovetic
84 Mutu, Floccari
83 Robinho, Miccoli, Maxi Lopez, ROcchi, G. Denis, Pirlo
82 Borriello, Pellissier, Hamšik, Palacio
81 Pandev, Lucarelli, Osvaldo, Giovinco
80 Iaquinta, Amauri, Acquafresca, Bojan, Floro Flores, Tiribocchi, di Michele, Cossu, Seedorf

the ladder is defined by the following definition - "ATT - A players ability to understand and/or anticipate his teams attacking flow and movements."

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Re: Serie A Ladders Discussion

Postby braindead » 2012 Mar 08, 21:05

I think this generally a good step in the right direction every league forum should take this as a step forward, because of the new revoultion, many players arent updated at all.
Btw who is toto?

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Re: Serie A Ladders Discussion

Postby čale » 2012 Mar 08, 21:11

Antonio Toto (short of Antonio) di Natale.

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Re: Serie A Ladders Discussion

Postby Basilio » 2012 Mar 08, 22:14

I like your ladder cale, but i'd swap del piero with matri, though i think what best defines attack was a random post on maradona thread by jeanclude "ATT is the whole ability of a player to find solution in attack." to a degree though, also considering overall effectiveness and how well they suit to theyre role


EDIT: VUCINIC 85 ?! :shock:

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Re: Serie A Ladders Discussion

Postby čale » 2012 Mar 08, 22:51

thanks,

regarding Vucinic, well i was dwelling (and still am) for weeks now, he's just great and always has a solution links up great moves into channels to find space always drawing markers on him he's a great forward but his downside is that he's plain idiotic, moronic, lazy, inconsistent and i could go on for a week at least...

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Re: Serie A Ladders Discussion

Postby Epsi » 2012 Mar 09, 13:11

Where's Borini? :P btw I can't understand some values like Miccoli @ 83.. maybe we're rating attack a bit differently.. my definition is "Attacking intelligence. How good a player can perform while attacking, including: positioning, passing, and making the right decision." This is also influenced by goal scored, as attack for cpu is maybe the most important stat to depict a frequent goal scorer. I think Basilio's definition is good, furthermore I ask you to make separate ladders from role to role since the stat works in different ways as to the role (at least for me :) )

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Re: Serie A Ladders Discussion

Postby čale » 2012 Mar 09, 13:23

nah nah you're right i'm just trying to decipher in my head why the hell did i put Miccoli on a 83 as i sure as hell remember and support the current 86, probably a typo as i edit all my stats via the Editor and not in game so that's the most probable and only reason...

well Borini is one of the guys waiting for an update on my OF so i didn't slotted him in the ladder since i'm still trying to decide what to give him...

and i put those few guys up there as i believe they're the only ones which currently deserve a yellow attack among midfielders in the league

and yes i support the definition Basilio put in 'cause it's actually the same as mine just expressed in a different manner

i just posted my ladder as a benchmark for further discussion and to have a comparison with yours so feel free to point anything out which you think is out of order ;)

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