The Speed Merchants (!)

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The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby Kanouté » 2010 Nov 10, 15:19

Well, now here's an important (imo) work to do in the hand. Which players should get the new S14 Speed Merchant card?
Maybe the name of it sounds like we should give it to only fast players but it's not that. This card should be given to agile players who is able to do very quick body turns in real as the card's explanation suggests. I think that it's important because it's sth like the dribbling styles (type 1,2,3,4) in the game that represent a player's way of dribbling for the realism of the game. For a start:

the players who are given this card in default database;

arshavin (true)
wright-phillips (haven't any idea)
krasic (true)
alexis sanchez (true)
piatti (true)
messi (true)
villa (haven't any idea)
ronaldo (true)
diego capel (haven't any idea)
ribery (true)
robben (true)
elia (true)
donovan (haven't any idea)
tamada (hai)
m. moralez (hai)
s. blanco (hai)

in addition to them;

adam johnson
robinho
iniesta

are the players who's come to my mind as candidates for the card first.

these are my thoughts. so let's see your opinions, please. it'd be great to get everybody's contribution for this important work. :)

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby jurgens » 2010 Nov 12, 02:09

I gave it to Ronaldo, and he was weaving in and out of my defenders at high speeds. This isn't liek ronaldo at all. I don't think he deserves this card, it just doesn't resprsent his style. Yeah he can move at high speeds, and make quick turns.. but when he gets to a player its his tendency to slow down and dance around the ball to try and beat them, he doesn't slamon in and out of defenders, ever. He never makes multiple quick succesion turns like Robben or Messi does. Often times he will stop the ball dead to try and beat players, its rarely, if ever, his style to continue running at max dribbling speed and weave in and out. With his 95 agility he can turn at speeds like he does in real life, this card makes him beyond that.

I don't think robinho deserves it either for similar reasons. He's better at beating players and keeping speed on while doing tricks than ronaldo, but it's also really his style to slow down and trick his opponents with step overs and second guess them which way he will turn. When he was at his best.. maybe he could get this card. I don't really see it for players that slow down to beat their opponents though. Thats the exact opposite of what this card does.

I don't like it on krasic either. Imo his style is really well replicated without it and just r1 runs. Just like in game where a player will run with r1 and wait to catch up with the ball then turn is basically exactly how krasic runs. He can keep close control.. but its not like this card allows, hes not that quick at turning either, hes pretty big and as such not so fast at turning, though hes pretty fast for his stature.

The rest.. I don't know. I'd say its best to assign a player and see if he behaves like he does in reality with the card. Most I've tried with it don't.. they either gain control they don't have, turn to fast, slalom in and out of defenders, or run at high speeds with the ball sticking to their feet like glue.

I really can't see much other than Robben, Messi and, Iniesta having it...

The vast majority of players are well represented without this card. Imo it only needs to be given to players that truly have that slalom style, those who run at close to max speed with incredible close control weaving in and out of defenders... cause thats the essence of this card. If players don't do this in real life.. and are assigned this card.. thats what they will do. They shouldn't have it then.

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby Luisao82 » 2010 Nov 12, 05:18

I also don't agree that Ronaldo for instance, deserves the Card.


Uzair wrote:ok these are the only players that are definites in my eyes, atm; Messi, Robben, Iniesta, Ronaldo, Robinho, Ribery, Ben Arfa, Arshavin, Alexis Sanchez. the reason is that these players are all quick & agile dribblers. most importantly however, they all have high figures for DA and all of them, more often than not, can maintain good levels of ball control when dribbling at pace. so the card shouldn't make them act any differently to how you'd expect them to.


So that would be exactly the reason why Hulk deserves the Card more than some of the players you mentioned. The explanation is quite simple: if you put Hulk in that list you'll notice that he's the player with the lowest value in DA, but ATM he's as good (or arguably better) than Ben Arfa at effective dribble runnings, and that's not only due to his superior speed stats. Also his mastery when it comes to make quick turns and maintain good ball control is easily comparable to Ribery's.

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby jurgens » 2010 Nov 12, 05:49

Hulk defintly doesn't deserve it.. have you tried him with the card? It doesn't move like him at all.

The vast majority of players are well represented without this card. Imo it only needs to be given to players that truly have that slalom style, those who run at close to max speed with incredible close control weaving in and out of defenders... cause thats the essence of this card. If players don't do this in real life.. and are assigned this card.. thats what they will do. They shouldn't have it then.
This is what needs to be looked at for players to be assigned it.

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby Luisao82 » 2010 Nov 12, 06:30

jurgens wrote:Hulk defintly doesn't deserve it.. have you tried him with the card? It doesn't move like him at all.


I have him with the Card for some time now, and so far I haven't detected any problems at all. It actually makes him more realistic IMO.

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby jurgens » 2010 Nov 12, 06:46

It makes him dribble with tha ball glued to his feet as though he had god region DA, literally at his toes as he dribbles at max speed. Gliding in and out of defenders like Messi, lol. How is that like hulk? He has explosive pace, and decent body turning ability, and really avergae control. ... this card doesn't suit him at all, it gives him close control and turning ability that he could never dream of. Its for the ELITE (Messi/Robben) dribblers ONLY.

If you feel every decent dribbler should have control at speeds similar to Messi, then by all means give them that card in your OF. If we want PSD to be accurate we should be extremly picky with who we give this card to.

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby adieet » 2010 Nov 12, 07:17

*Bump*
What about the likes of Ronaldinho ? Neymar ?

I think we can find many player in classic section who deserve this card :lol:

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby jurgens » 2010 Nov 12, 07:26

As far as I can tell what this card does is... when this card is in place and the r1 button is held down, this card has its own set DA/AGI. You can set agi/da/tec to 1 and while the player holds down r1 and moves left and right, he still moves as fluid. To me this seems like a major system flaw (to be expected from pes by know). You can clearly tell how much an effect da/agi has when its set to 1 when dribbling normaly, but hold r1 with speed merchant and move left and right and it will feel like god region DA/AGI. Thats what I mean by it has its own DA/AGI. Of course, you can't just hold down r1 in pes and will have to use it in combination with r2/normal dribble, and when the dribbling stats are extremly low, you will feel it then, but not while your using movements related to the r1 button.

Since it basically gives a god region like agility/da to the player while they are holding down r1 (which is retarded) it should only be given to players who actually have something similar to this already, again like Messi and Robben.

ronaldinho doesn't deserve it, classic probably does

Last edited by jurgens on 2010 Nov 12, 08:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby Luisao82 » 2010 Nov 12, 08:06

jurgens wrote:How is that like hulk? He has explosive pace, and decent body turning ability, and really avergae control. ... this card doesn't suit him at all, it gives him close control and turning ability that he could never dream of. Its for the ELITE (Messi/Robben) dribblers ONLY.

If you feel every decent dribbler should have control at speeds similar to Messi, then by all means give them that card in your OF. If we want PSD to be accurate we should be extremly picky with who we give this card to.


If you say that he has a decent body turning ability/average control then clearly you haven't seen enough of Hulk. Replace 'decent' with 'great', and 'average' with 'good' and now you're talking about Hulk. ;)
I agree that we have to be extremely picky with this Card, but believe me, if you give it to Ribery or Ben Arfa then Hulk definitely deserves it as well. It often gives the impression that his control is better when he does dribble runnings then when he does a slow dribble.

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby Ricky » 2010 Nov 13, 12:06

from what u said about this card maurito zarate must be a serious candidate to get it

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby r0dz » 2010 Nov 13, 20:59

Hulk doesnt deserves it PERIOD
Im a fan of M. Zarate, and I feel he doesnt deserve it.

Ppl should stop thinking that fast players deserve this card, most of the players mentioned here slow down when they are dribbling, thats why they dont deserve this card. This card is for players like Messi/Robben/Maybe CR7, players that have the ball glued to their feet when they are sprinting/ dribbling at high speeds.

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby Gugu » 2010 Nov 13, 21:08

I feel that when this card is activated, regardless of DA/AGI, movements of the body are quickened, turns just before the defender can intercept and so forth. However, I feel that the DA is actually hampered, as the player then has a set motion mat to move, like older dribble versions of PES (8-axis like). But basically, DS is hampered, there is basically a slowdown of speed with the card... Robben wouldn't be a perfect candidate, also Ronaldinho has excellent control, outside of the set motion mat, and the card isn't really applicable to him IMO :)

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby Luisao82 » 2010 Nov 14, 06:30

r0dz wrote:Hulk doesnt deserves it PERIOD


Now, easy there young fella. Talking like if you own the truth will just make you look pathetic. :roll:


r0dz wrote:Ppl should stop thinking that fast players deserve this card, most of the players mentioned here slow down when they are dribbling


That comment only show how misiformed you are about Hulk.


r0dz wrote:This card is for players like Messi/Robben/Maybe CR7, players that have the ball glued to their feet when they are sprinting/ dribbling at high speeds.


By comparing them with respect to the following stats, you'll notice that CR9 already have the edge over Hulk:

Agility: 95 (+7 than Hulk)
Dribble Accuracy: 90 (+6 than Hulk)
Technique: 91 (+7 than Hulk)

But the truth is: when dribble running, Hulk can can glue the ball at his feet with great accuracy and can turn very quickly in less than a half-second, so really CR9 has got nothing on him in that respect. From your list, I only rate Messi and Robben higher.
So if you say that CR9 is a contender for this card, then Hulk DEFINITELY is IMHO.

Now, try for some constructive criticism and try to elaborate so that our discussion can shape up a bit. ;)

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby Uzair » 2010 Nov 14, 18:48

i'm beginning to agree with jurgens and starting to think that ronaldo and robinho may not be as strong contenders as i previously thought. their dribbling style is a bit too much stoppy-starty when they go 1-1 with opposition players. at least it is nowadays. less so when they were younger. but everyone else on my list i still regard as definites.

i'm still unsure about Hulk tho

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby Luisao82 » 2010 Nov 16, 00:25

Uzair wrote:i'm still unsure about Hulk tho


Try to watch a bit more of him, then we'll talk about it.

I'm not saying that he definitely deserves the Card. I'm just saying that if you give the Card to someone like Ben Arfa (suggested by jurgens) or CR9 (suggested by r0dz), then Hulk deserves it as well, and I'm quite sure about that. ;)

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby jurgens » 2010 Nov 16, 03:32

Luisao82 wrote:
Uzair wrote:i'm still unsure about Hulk tho



I'm just saying that if you give the Card to someone like Ben Arfa (suggested by jurgens)


I never suggested that.

Yesterday I was playing alot of matches with my brother and he had a diffent C.ronaldo than me (mine had no speed merchant and his did) it seems that players actually lose a good bit of their max top speed when speed merchant is on, because they no longer hit it in front of them and chase it.. they slightly slow down and still keep really decent speed but not their max speed. We noticed this because my c ronaldo was outpacing his defenders while his was struggling. Imo speed merchant is OP for close control.. but you lose some advanatges by using it too. So its not like a player using speed merchant and another not using it will be vastly insuperior. Its just diffent styles, I perfer ronaldo without it... feels so much more realistic without it. Hulks style is much better reflected without it aswell.

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby Luisao82 » 2010 Nov 16, 11:24

jurgens wrote:I never suggested that.


My bad, my bad... i meant Uzair, not you. ;)

jurgens wrote:So its not like a player using speed merchant and another not using it will be vastly insuperior. Its just diffent styles, I perfer ronaldo without it... feels so much more realistic without it. Hulks style is much better reflected without it aswell.


I'll give CR9 a test ASAP. As for Hulk, still no problems detected here. He really is amazing when dribbling at high speed, and the Card suits him perfectly IMO.

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby JMVP » 2010 Nov 16, 20:02

Luisao82 wrote:I'll give CR9 a test ASAP. As for Hulk, still no problems detected here. He really is amazing when dribbling at high speed, and the Card suits him perfectly IMO.


Why ? Hulk's dribbling is pretty straight forward and the reason why he's so effective is a mix of speed and strenght, and often some trickery before he stars running. Speed Merchant is more suited for Coentrão than Hulk because of the way Coentrão zig-zags, Hulk can't do that and he can't change direction at full speed, at least not often enough to warrant that card. I honestly don't see anything special in his agility or turning ability, he's just like a freaking train, fast and heavy.

I also agree Cristiano doesn't deserve it, maybe when at United he did but not now. Barça's Ronaldinho definitely deserves it though.

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby Luisao82 » 2010 Nov 17, 10:16

As for his agility or turning ability being nothing special I rly don't agree with you. I think he's very agile for a guy who is also quite strong and corpulent. And I've seen him doing some great turns a couple of times. Of course his style is more 'hit and dash' but it's not like he loses control of the ball when DR. Also his touch is getting finer and finer.

But you definitely got a point there when you say that Coentrão's style is more suitable for that Card. Your counterargument was the most elucidative here and it really made me backtrack a bit in my own about him deserving that Card. Much more debatable than I thought.

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby The Immortal Warrior » 2010 Nov 22, 12:43

This is an awesome card!

You can literally DESTROY defences like Messi and Ronaldo do in real life. Well done pes. :D

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Re: The Speed Merchants (!)

Postby The Immortal Warrior » 2010 Nov 22, 22:54

For the classic teams, I have checked and Cruyff has it, so I think thats accurate, what do you think?

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