CLASSIC SECTION RULES

Moderators: Korinov, Epsi, Adrien, jurgens, Brezza, frshmn, Albo7

CLASSIC SECTION RULES

Postby Brezza » 2010 Jan 08, 19:25

- We will be putting far more scrutiny into approving players stats from now on. Once new players are allowed to be created again they must follow the new template format and include videos and/or some explanations about the players behavior especially for less known players. If you just post a set of numbers with little or no explanation or something copied of Wiki your stats will more than likely wont be approved. I know some players are already like this, hence the updating phase ... check these examples for what should be required:

40-s/stanley-matthews-1947-1957-t2655.html
60-s/milan-gali-1960-1966-t8613.html

- Of course there aren't always videos but if you read about a player that means there has to be some text somewhere that's what we want to see key info's and arguments from what the stats where deduced . The goal is to post arguments and info at the same time, in order to justify your stats and share at least some of the knowledge about the player you've posted. For example, if , Plava Čigra posted everything he knew about Stjepan Bobek it would take 20-30 pages to sum up all that. Instead of that he posted just the most vital info, and arguments so people can understand his stats.

- We should really just focus on players that make part of all star/era team from now on and the most important players. Please refrain from making stats for virtually unknown players unless you provide sufficient information and if they are needed for an all star team. I believe we already have a the majority of the best players from the less known early 20th Century players for example.

- I know that there are quite a large number of dubious stats for before 50's players in particular so it is likely that a list of these players will be looked at and decided upon whether they should be updated or worth keeping altogether. Deleting them is the last resort however, Like Nightcaller said in the Mod section We should try to, in time, improve those stats and make them look as real as we can achieve, because I think classic section would lost a lot if we delete stats for those pioneers of football.

Thanks for your time ;)

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby Alcohomicide » 2010 Jan 08, 19:53

Sounds good and is what we should be doing - getting right the players who've already been made.

"When we were winning leagues and European Cups at Real I always said Makelele was our most important player. There is no way myself Figo or Raúl would have been able to do what we did without Claude and the same goes for Liverpool and Gerrard."
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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby Classical » 2010 Jan 08, 22:24

Sounds good to start labeling and put in the same ledger.

One question tough, about the old players are you going to update them without confering with the original statsmakers?
I am aware that it is impossible to interact with so many but , at the same time, there shouldn't be that much old players with super wrong stats. They can be outbalanced here and there but they we all know it is not a precise science making stats for classics, specially the old ones.

This said, I agree with that and offer to help or, in a more passive approach, to let you guys review the players I've created the way you want, just think if changes are to be made they could be posted in the respective player thread to see the pattern you are addopting.

Good work chaps

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby Plava Čigra » 2010 Jan 09, 17:18

As you could see in the first, Brezza's post, we've given you examples how to post.

For players that are known to almost every classic football fan, like Matthews is, you can provide info from various sites and also you could leave videos and links to the other sites with even more info. That certainly can't be a big problem.

For players that aren't that famous, like Milan Galić, it's best to write decent info yourself (off course, it's always good to have some extra videos and a few links).

Just follow that pattern and that's it.

***

Players that are made by no longer active members will be updated by mods, in time (for example players made by zingo, blanka, yourigo...).

I actually would prefer if people could update players they've made to the new format. Off course, every stats maker should try to do more comparing and looking at the ladders in order to improve his stats, because some players are imbalanced comparing to the others. Also, values for some players need to be standardized. For example, Attack: 45 for a defender is too low, no matter who he is (I personally think the lowest Attack value for defenders shouldn't be under 56-58).

It would be much easier for all of us, if everybody do their share of work. By that I mean, that it would be great if every active member could update his own stats to new format and according to ladders. Also, don't forget to report your update, either in the Update Thread or in that player's thread.

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby BigStu » 2010 Jan 09, 17:24

im currently formating updating and carding all my players, and often tweaking them

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby Oriello » 2010 Jan 09, 17:57

So the new stats will have to from now on have club names coloured and bolded? Blackpool. :?: Also the positions bolded and coloured, and the growth type listed? As I always thought the 'format' with all the extra colours to look like gay pride parade, does not a reader get the same information out of the basic white text? :P

About the PES2010 cards I cannot include them properly as I do not have a PES2010 to test them out in game and see if the players still play differently. I know there are descriptions on this forum and videos on wikipedia, but I still rather test than guessetimate what might fit. (The PES2010 demo editor is limited and I can not fully implement all the cards in game to test them out)

Plava Čigra wrote:Also, values for some players need to be standardized. For example, Attack: 45 for a defender is too low, no matter who he is (I personally think the lowest Attack value for defenders shouldn't be under 56-58).
:mrgreen: After watching youung Zmuda in action again I cannot bring myself to have him higher than a 52 (on account of two 'okay' dribbling out of own half (under no pressure) but after this he stops dead meters away from the half way line and lays the ball off, and never goes up for set pieces despite being the second tallest outfield player. So Cannavaro 55 Cordoba 57 and Legrottaglie 58, How can I even approach a minimum of 56 :P. The ratings in Serie A you might say are underrated but I am more a proponent of leaving Attack down despite good set pieces header/instinct, and only go high 50's low 60's if the player is as well decent-good in open play in making forward runs or just on ball forays.



PS i HIT BACK BUTTON MY ORIGINAL POST WAS LOST :x :x :x :x needed to rewrite I HAT TECHNOLOGY SOMETIMES SO MUCH, even though it was the fault of my undexterious fingers. :x

EDIT electrictrigger if you read this, then I will not be able to get to the Italy match this weekened, too swamped - also wanted to do my retweaks and final posts today, next weekened for sure. :) "This message brought to you by PLAY GOLF" :lol:

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby Plava Čigra » 2010 Jan 09, 18:44

First and most important thing. You don't have to list Growth Type (although it's not too hard to put it if you've done a good research about your player). I'm actually the only one who does that, in order to make things easier for the people who would like to use my players (or players I've updated so far) in Master League.

Second, I don't see a reason why wouldn't you color positions? The reason for doing that is mostly because positions are colored like that in new PES:

attributes-analysed-and-explained/player-index-cards-as-they-apear-in-the-game-t13582.html

Club colors are there because it's good to know colors of player's club(s) (especially if you've posted a black & white picture). Also, modern players section already posts like that and I don't see a reason why shouldn't we do the same...

Third, about the Cards... People who don't own PES2010 can add some cards, because some cards are very easy to add if you've researched about the player (like S dribbling cards, or most of the S Cards). For P Cards you can ask for a suggestion from other members who know that player (again, some P Cards are similar to old Special Abilities; like P05: Trickster is most similar to *Tactical Dribble or P21: Fox in the Box is most similar to *Post Player...). If nobody answers, second option is to describe player's style of playing and try to suggest cards, based on descriptions and other people can help you, based on the info you gave about that player (I know it's a bit complicated, but I don't see any other way if the first option doesn't work).

Fourth, I wrote that remark about standardized stats and Attack, because I saw that somebody gave Attack: 38 for one defender (I think it was a '60s defender). There can be a few extreme cases, but I really feel that Attack<54 for defenders looks un-standardized. Off course, this is just my opinion (although I think that at least some experienced members will agree with me). Cannavaro in his prime has Attack: 60 - viewtopic.php?f=188&t=3910&hilit=Cannavaro

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby Oriello » 2010 Jan 09, 19:28

Fifth :mrgreen: Thanks for your reply. :lol:

I was just trying to list and confirm the differences between this new 'format' and the older one which I though still to be acceptable - just for clarification purposes, not an attack on your style Plava_Čigra/NighCaller3 (P. DIDDY/Paddy, GonnerLover66/Jeff..Jeffity.., RadioKiller/Pazza_Interista ma so many people on the run from the internet police :lol: ).

Well my only real qualm is the coloured positions thing just seems redundant to me, same amount of information, just simply looks 'prettier' for some, "basic white all the way", I say. ;)

Yeah on Cards I know you can include some that are reduplicates of the *Stars, I was just wondering about ones like *Classic number 10 would this be good for Deyna? will he sit around too much, or get involved in play? Only testing would really allow me to gauge the proper effect. But I will be sure to include the no-brainers in. :)

Cannavaro set of stats, at Madrid had that Attack 55 rating, he was still going up and decently getting onto corners, not so much for juve, though I think he actually scored one in a friendly against Madrid. :lol:

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby Fevernova » 2010 Jan 09, 19:51

I've already updated like 20 of the players I've made. I've added cards, coloured the positions, teams names and stuff, trying to fit 100 % the new standards, altough I think most of my players allready met those requirements, except for the vids, maybe, I'll get to that soon.

PS: Guys, I allready have like 4 players in the queue, do U have the slightest idea of how long it's the "freezing" going to take (they all belong to classic teams) ;)

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby Plava Čigra » 2010 Jan 09, 20:07

@Oriello

And for clarification purposes, I've changed my nick (NightCaller3) to Plava Čigra, because I want to pay a tribute to this player:

50-s/milos-milutinovi-1952-1958-t8988.html ;)

Yes, the hardest thing in stats making is colouring... No, it's not getting the info, watching the videos and finally comparing with the other players, it's colouring... I totally understand you :P :mrgreen: .

As for P03: Classic No.10 is concerned, I can say that together with P20: Talisman, it represents the closest thing to *Playmaking (both of these cards affect team synchronization and their teammates movement). Although, I think that P20: Talisman is closer to old *Playmaking. P03: Classic No.10 is most appropriate for playmakers who prefer to use their passing abilities combined with great vision without moving too much. P20: Talisman is for playmakers who like to move with the ball until their teammates become more synchronized in order to send good passes. There are players who deserve both Cards, off course (although there aren't too many of them). I can think of 2 examples right now. From older players that would be Stjepan Bobek (in my opinion). From Contemporary players in their prime, I think maybe Totti could have both (although he can use them only when played as AMF). After El Grande patch with classic teams is released, I'll try to do more testing (maybe I could even try to test Deyna and help you with my suggestions).

***

@Fevernova

Well, I think it'll last until at least 70-80% of classic players are updated. Or if one user updates all of his created players and post the list of players and changes in Update Thread (or in each player's thread), I'll be glad to look in to his new created players and approve, if they meet the standards. It's up to you people. The classic section already has a great number of players, so we have to think more on quality then on quantity. ;)

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby Fevernova » 2010 Jan 09, 20:19

How about complete the missing players in the allready made All Star-Era teams? There´s not much sense in having them in a carefuly selected roster without even showing the minimun set of stats. At least that´s where I think we should focus. ;)

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby DeFrenZ » 2010 Jan 09, 20:21

Very good thing to do, but... HOW should the new updated stats be rated? trying to do something that fits moderladderswise? I sure hope so :D

and Oriello, all colouring and formatting is for only two reasons... making it prettier (yeah, we like pretty things :P) and enabling another info to our eyes, the color. It's like when you watch an hairy thing and you touch it at the same time... you get the same message but you could prefer one or another :P

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby Oriello » 2010 Jan 09, 20:31

DeFrenZ wrote:Very good thing to do, but... HOW should the new updated stats be rated? trying to do something that fits moderladderswise? I sure hope so :D

and Oriello, all colouring and formatting is for only two reasons... making it prettier (yeah, we like pretty things :P) and enabling another info to our eyes, the color. It's like when you watch an hairy thing and you touch it at the same time... you get the same message but you could prefer one or another :P

:lol: Damn this shit was hilarious, I was like "WTF!! is he trying to say". DeFrenZ some of the shit you say sometimes has the akward tinge to it but it funny as hell.

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby Fevernova » 2010 Jan 09, 21:06

Right. You should give those lines to Jeff Dunham, DeFrenz, he´d kill, for sure...

Imaging this guy going:
Image

"It's like when you watch an hairy thing and you touch it at the same time... you get the same message but you could prefer one or another" :P

hilarious!!!

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby DeFrenZ » 2010 Jan 09, 22:18

Funny though that I was trying to explain it seriously :lol: I hope the message got through, though :P

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby Fevernova » 2010 Jan 10, 17:21

Plava Čigra:
@Fevernova

Well, I think it'll last until at least 70-80% of classic players are updated. Or if one user updates all of his created players and post the list of players and changes in Update Thread (or in each player's thread), I'll be glad to look in to his new created players and approve, if they meet the standards. It's up to you people. The classic section already has a great number of players, so we have to think more on quality then on quantity.


Should we "bump" our players thread with an "UPDATED" post so they can be seen by U guys?

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby Plava Čigra » 2010 Jan 10, 17:32

Plava Čigra wrote:@Fevernova

Well, I think it'll last until at least 70-80% of classic players are updated. Or if one user updates all of his created players and post the list of players and changes in Update Thread (or in each player's thread), I'll be glad to look in to his new created players and approve, if they meet the standards. It's up to you people. The classic section already has a great number of players, so we have to think more on quality then on quantity. ;)


I already stated that, mate. ;)

Either write in that player's thread or in the Update Thread (wherever you write, if it's not too big problem, please list the changes). Whatever is easier for you.

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby Kempie » 2010 Jan 13, 20:39

I agree this is a good idea - most of the classic players (certainly the most well known ones) have already been created now, but some of the stats are maybe a bit dubious. I don't think the balance between quantity and quality is right at the moment but this should definitely help.

I think more developed classics ladders would be a good thing - there isn't much in the way of ladders at the moment.

Ladders-wise, I'd suggest something like:
- Group all the pre-50's classic players together as these are all difficult to rate accurately (lack of video footage in particular).
- Group 50's and 60's players together for same reason (although more video footage available).
- Have separate ladders for remaining decades.

Also, should there be a new category for the 'noughties', as were now in 2010?

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby Plava Čigra » 2010 Jan 14, 01:41

Well, are you applying to make all those ladders? :mrgreen:

***

Nice suggestion(s), but we are aware of that. :)

With all due respect to you mate, that is one of the hardest tasks to do (I would be very thankful to anybody who would even try to do the task :) ). Classic section has over 2200 players and stats are updating on the daily basis. ravlee made ladders 8-9 months ago (for what I'm very thankful to him), but they very quick became unreliable due to the fact many members did silent updates and ravlee didn't find anybody to follow official updates (neither anybody volunteer to do that job :( ). Basically, what I'm saying is that we need a few people for this job, and a couple of people who would check for updates every week and update the ladders (since I'm here, I never saw anybody, except ravlee, applied to try and do the ladders).

Brezza started a nice Dribble Accuracy project but he can't do that by himself (I mean he can, but it takes a lot of time), and it may need a month or two (or maybe more), just to finish DA ladders.

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Re: NEW CLASSIC SECTION RULES (read or GTFO :P)

Postby DeFrenZ » 2010 Jan 14, 10:54

well, declaring updates would make the task quite simplier :)

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