Michael Carrick

[jurgens]

Spoiler: show

Talented holding midfielder, Carrick has won over 10 caps for England at international level. He joined Manchester United in 2006 from West Ham and has played regular first team football since his arrival. During the 2007/08 season he made a good contribution in both domestic and UEFA Champions League competition despite his manager's rotation policy. Carrick has impressive vision, distribution and good positional sense.

VIDEOS:

Spoiler: show

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr_OHQcAv1Q

[Mr. Evans]

Are you kidding me? He's been outstanding this/last season, best DM in the PL in 11/12 for me. Fantastic tackler and interceptor, great tactician. He's much better than De Jong's ever been, despite De Jong being superior in terms strength, stamina, pace, agility and responsiveness. He should sit even higher.
Check his stats if you're not convinced.

[jurgens]

Stats won't convince me really. As I said he's good, but not that good. Hes nowhere near de jongs level in def if you ask me. De jong disposses players much easier, and is a much better tackler, hes just way over him in def in every regard. ATM, hes ranked as one of the best DMF's.. not only in the modern database, but of all time.

[Mr. Evans]

A 78 makes him on of the best ever. That while the likes of Busquets, Masche, Toulalan for example are much higher?
Completely disagree with De Jong being a much better tackler, not true at all. Carrick's a far better tactician than De Jong. I advise you pay more attention to him.

[jurgens]

A 78 does make him one of the best ever. There a certain DMF's like the ones you've named that are really, really exceptional and have been for an extended period of time, as such they've earned such values. Carricks is good I'm not denying it, I still think de jong is just much better in def than him. Other stats add up. this response/def/tw... puts him all round level with the lieks of gilberto silva, do people really think carrick is that good?

btw, whiel your here what do you think about what I'ev said about his passing being too low in the previous pages?

[Mr. Evans]

We've only recently been working on DEF for DMFs. DMFs with a DEF rating over 78 were very rare, obviously a lot of DMFs are still outdated.
The gap between him and the likes of Busquets and Masche isn't all that big and I'll keep saying it. Cambiasso for example is an exceptional DMF but it shouldn't be the case that any other DMF doesn't even compare to him, being miles away of him.
And De Jong's a good DMF but I've never found him to be anything special. His physicality is his strongest point, rather than pure skill.

Higher passing? I'd agree with that, impressive passer.

[alawadhi3000]

I agree with jurgens BTW, 78 is a bit too much, something like 76 fits him better.

Generally our CMs are a bit overrated, if you look at their stats in the game you'd see that they are good, but in reality our CMs are subpar compared to the rest of squad/other top teams.

[jurgens]

We've only recently been working on DEF for DMFs. DMFs with a DEF rating over 78 were very rare, obviously a lot of DMFs are still outdated.
The gap between him and the likes of Busquets and Masche isn't all that big and I'll keep saying it. Cambiasso for example is an exceptional DMF but it shouldn't be the case that any other DMF doesn't even compare to him, being miles away of him.
And De Jong's a good DMF but I've never found him to be anything special. His physicality is his strongest point, rather than pure skill.

Higher passing? I'd agree with that, impressive passer.

Myself and brezza have already reworked most of the def ratings for classics and I think most of the big players on the board have been reworked for def? So time shouldn't be an issue.

Cambiasso for example is an exceptional DMF but it shouldn't be the case that any other DMF doesn't even compare to him, being miles away of him.

But why exactly? I don't think it's about pure ability in game, like if you have 75 def you can't compare with someone of 85.. I don't think thats true at all. The high def on cambiasso is for the reason that hes probably the most intelligent DMF I've ever seen and mainly, the ease which he disposes people is just phenomenal.. theres no one that compares to him, even today. By giving higher DEF values to other players, it makes them capable of these acts and you kill that uniqueness imo.
And I'm almost certain this is the reason Konami has always been so sparse with def ratings on DMF's. Cambiasso is above most CB's throughout the years at standing, clean dispossession. But what other DMF's can you say that about? That is a unique trait that should be represented through stats imo.

About the lower def/high def.. comparability in game. For example, I'm switching between palombo/cambiasso/vidal or using two at the same time in my master league. Vidal has 10 def less than him, but does it put a huge gap between the two? Not at all, just when cambiasso closes in he wins the ball with ease and consistency, vidal is more than capable of winning tones of balls too, but it's not with the same ease and consistency.. and I think that's really quite accurate.

I think when you reach the 75 value for def, you have basically a world class DMF. 80+ response just increase it, and when you get 80+ TW it just gets better and better. I mean.. I can't stress enough how competent a player is with just a 75 def and good response/tw. They are essentially world class and they can play to an extremly high ability. I'm not saying thats justification for not giving others higher, not at all. But I think it should be handed out more prudently. If the player is really special, if theres something unique to his game that makes his style in game better represented by this value being increased.

But regarding carrick stats and the gap you talked about between players. This is carricks best season ever defeinsly right? I'd say that, it's by far his best ever imo. But what about cambiasso's season? This was probably his worst season ever in inter. He struggled with fitness issues, stamina problems, severe lack of will at times,.. sometimes it really looked like he didn't care at all, or like he didn't have the energy, found himself on the bench several times too. But inspite of all this.. he still has more dispossessions and interceptions than carrick as well as double the amount of clearness. What does that say to you? If one is in his best season ever, and the other is in his worst... and the other player still beats this guy in the some of the most important areas of the defending.... it tells me one is unique and very special, and should have values that portray that, the other is just having a great season to me. I'll concede the point on 78 def since you seem so sure, but I really don't think closing gaps in pes stats is right. (I just wanna point out, that those stattistics really mean very little anways)

Whenever we adopt a new value on PSD.. we tend to hand out values really easily and it makes everyone, so, so good. But I don't think it's right, many just good players in PSD would be rated among the best in the world in konamis standards.


edit: sorry for writing an eassy... it's not so much carrick related, but how we are applying def

[čale]

just wanted to barge in and say that i agree that there is no way of Carrick being above Vidal when going head-to-head on the 11/12 season, Vidal has been arguably one of the finest DMF's in the world this year.

Plus, agree on higher Passing as well.

[Mr. Evans]

My goodness I actually read that.
I understand what you're saying but it still doesn't justify why Carrick doesn't deserve a very good DEF value for me. Players like Vidal and De Jong, they're great now in their physical prime. But when they age and go through that physical decline, unless they pull of a J. Zanetti, they'll be a lot less effective. Players like Carrick and Busquets will of course also decline when going through the same thing but their decline will be more steady and it won't affect them as much (Carrick is already going through it, him about to turn 31 soon). As they use their mind to defend. Cambiasso and Maka combined tactical and physical excellence and that's what made them unique. Yes Cambiasso is going through his worst season but he was still good overall and he's still far superior to Carrick with his set, which is correct.

Look at Carrick. No strength, speed, agility, aggresiveness, unimpressive energy and responsiveness (needs to go down by a point btw) and despite being a tall guy, he's not strong in aerial challenges yet his defending is effective. The art of defending is extremely limited in PES so we don't have much to work with but the area(s) in which he excells is mostly related to DEF. High DEF alone doesn't make him an incredible DMF but he needs it imo. I remember playing with Konami's default Maka set in his last season, DEF 84. He was good but not great due to his set not being impressive overall.

But it seems like it's just me so all I can say is, watch him closely next season, I'm not crazy .

[iman]

i agree with Evans.

first we should notice DMF main duty is game destroying and the best way is game reading to cut passes then physical challenge.

so first priority is cutting passes(Res + Acc) then physical challenge (BB + Def) also other parts like Sta , Men , TS and Jump help alot but after those abilities.
other abilities are in lower priority for a DMF.

* Def and BB more help when player is on defending tactics in/near their box but first duty of DMF is block opposite players in middle of pitch.
at most times in middle of pitch teams try passes to create their attacks instead of individual dribbling so game reading is more effective that physical challenge.

[yourigo]

It's not just you. I understand that noone around here seems to like statistics much, but here they are: last year carrick had 2 tackles per game, 2.2 interceptions and 0.5 fouls per game. This year he went to 3 tackles per game (29 more tackles than last year), 2.4 interceptions (14 more) at only 0.7 fouls per game. It's like mr. evans says, much more effective. And 0.7 fouls to 3 takcles is actually one of the best ratios around, which just goes to show how much more he relies on timing inteligent tackles rather than relying on strength and athleticysm like vidal for example. He also won 8 out of 11 aerial duels, but it's not that significant since he has a big height advantage over most other midfielders

again, before anyone jumps my throat, statistics don't say everything, but that doesn't mean that if you read them right you can't use them to back your reasoning.. or in this case, mr evans's reasoning . The question is if he can keep the same drive next year, he actually looked very motivated and that's what was missing from him all along

[iman]

in PSD Vidal , Combiasso , Mascherano and Busquets are very better than him just can talk about De Jong that like what Evans said he is more strength player like what we gave him already

[vinnie]

mascherano.... busquets... these players frequently play CB. I dont think they are good DMF's to compare to...

[iman]

yes but i didnt remember Busquets played as CB also i think his Def should be 80.

[Alexalibur]

Busquets played at CB a number of times (The 3-1 win against Arsenal), it turned out awful though.

[vinnie]

Busquets... is best at a possession sweeper type role behind the CB's. He's a snail, so his speed is EASILY exposed if allowed (Pato...)

Anyways Carrick shouldn't be compared to Mascherano or Busquets at all. He should just be compared to other english DMF/CMF players like Song, or Arteta, or Parker, or Lucas.

[Mr. Evans]

Busquets etc. being able to play at CB, what does that mean? That's like the constant arguments in the past of Ramos warranting high DEF because of his ability to play at CB. CB, SB, DMF all require different type of defending. T. Silva played at DM a couple of times and wasn't special. At CB though, he's special.

[Paddy]

Busquets... is best at a possession sweeper type role behind the CB's. He's a snail, so his speed is EASILY exposed if allowed (Pato...)

Anyways Carrick shouldn't be compared to Mascherano or Busquets at all. He should just be compared to other english DMF/CMF players like Song, or Arteta, or Parker, or Lucas.

I actually think you're completely wrong in comparing him to Song, Arteta, Parker and Lucas, all of them are enforcers or attacking players, Carrick is essentially Busquets but English and a tad bit worse, he's played at CB innumerable times and been decent.

[vinnie]

i concede the argument. Not sure of the comparison though from what i know of busquets and carrick... (probably due to my spotty carrick impressions )

[win_zhou]

actually, the only one can be compared to Carrick playing style is Busquets...
- both of them sit deep as anchorman protecting the defender
- both of them good at playing simple passes...

Carrick is somewhat unlucky playing at EPL..if he was playing at spanish league or italian league, they will rate him higher...EPL fans don't seems to bother what he did at man utd, even some of man utd fans didn't even want him on the team...