Oriello wrote:list of changes
Defence -2 -- I based the original value more when he was played as a DMF/CMF(Pirlo'esque') against England at Wembley, he put in an honest shift for a guy being played out of his natural position, but I have no idea if he could do this regularily, and one of the issues with his faliure in Manchester City was beacuase they had no idea where to play him and he failed both as a typical centre forward and as holding player in the centre of the park. And one of the problems was his unwillingnes to tackle an opponent for the ball, he considered it to be ridiculous for him to go to ground to battle for a ball. ( Apparently fell in love with the idea of playing in England after the Wembley match, but he quickly regretted it as his style absolutely clashed like anti matter with what was excpected of him)
But Oriello you are talking out of your ass again, as indeed he was playing the 1970's equivalent of the Pirlo role from Poland against England at Wembley, and this was due to team tactics of only playing to abosrob a rabid English side on the romp for goals galore as the Poles needed only a draw to secure qualifiaction. In anycase Oriello you clearly missed that while he was fielded exclusively as a CMF for Poland in 1974 he displayed excellent positional sense easily worthy of a 66 rating but considering comaritively a CMF/AMF hybird such as Lampard at 67 Defence currently you would be well within your frame of mind to give him a similar value as in reality though he may have put in a less labour intensive shift he was juast as capable of deciphering play and stopping it like Lampard is now a days. The classic Lampard being DEF 69 RES 90
, and if Pirlo gets a 69-70 DEF - despite tackling more than Deyna (did he ever go to ground?
) his positional sense was not any 3-4(+) points better.
Oriello wrote:Balance +1
Balance +2 - That little thought process back in the Boniek thread already had me considering it and from the play he was indeed 'strong' and looking at West Germany players and others when watching the match the 82 fitted well in the ladders, though he was not in the slightest a physical player - those that tried to be with him to their dismay found him able resist quite a bit more than his frail figure might convey. Noticable on setplays when competing for high balls he often claimed due to factors of ATT/DEF/RES but at the same time was not knocked of his leap and won pretty much everything in the air he decided to go for.
Oriello wrote:Top Speed -1 --these next sets of changes are more to replicate his dribbling more relistically, and of what I read I guess I would liken him to Dobrin, and this better suits that sort of walking with the ball -- strangely though he seemed to get faster when he had the ball. XD
Dribble Speed -5
Yes from a textual point of view he may have been akin to Dobrin indeed, but Oriello once again your muddling with stats has had diastrous consequences. Top Speed is a difficult one, as he was perferred walker on the pitch, but I might have take into account the possible Summer heat of the WC, yet never-the-less his ability to almost 'charge' through midfield at oppurtune moments could only be possible with a 78
TS minmum, but he would do this at most once every three matches - and potentially why it was so effective as many players thoguht him to be naturally slow were wrong footed when he decided to change gears and were left in the dust.
In my notes Deyna actually out paced Bell (struggling to keep pace) TS 86
- with the ball! Well pulling that kind of shit off is liable to confuse anyone.
Anyways at the current TS 76
and DS 78
he seems to feel about right in that he most prod his way through a congested midfield, but if a gap is their a quick turn and shift of the ball and the opposing players will be admiring Deyna's ass - it is do-able when playing with him yourself as the 93
DA and TECH 94
(perfect ratings I think, fit him like a glove) help to create this classy driblling.
Of those stats I think Acceleration was his outright weakest element, and I may have confused those clever turns of body to shift/dance around an opponent within a 3 yard space as a rapid ACC to a low TS but if looked over a longer idstance he did have "pace" TS that is, but it took him ages at times to get there anything over 10 meters he would not win through accelration.
Oriello wrote:Short Pass Accuracy +2
--Sort of debated whether to give him *Passing, which would have increased the quality of his passing, so a bit of offsetting, also in test matches I would pass from the centre to a fullback and the ball is too hard and goes out of play!! What the Fuc|<!! Do not remeber any retard pass like that, if he is capable of that on 87 then an increas was needed. And I was agaianst *Passing as it made him play ulike himslef too many killer balls, while Deyna was the ultimate regualtor of matches and involved others into build up, he could slice any defence but did not attempt it so frequntly as to warrent the star, but by quality of passing should have it.
Long Pass Speed +2 --floated orbs all over the place, but in PES were getting intercepted far too much needed, this is probably maximum as his long passes were in direct contrast to a Gerrard rocket that only Maradona could bring down.
Well I cannot deny *Passing to him on the basis of frequency, he did pull them off even if from his deeper role he would only playmake, and only when played as a AMF or when higher up during a match would he risk a threaded ball, but indeed he did have the eyes to spot the gaps (through the legs of Bennetti
) and deliver some really tantalizing balls - the only criticsim would be they were given with to much weight and had a similar result to Juves Diego form of going too far ahead of the strikers at times.
In anycase with the addition of the *Passing star I have taken measures to regulate the quality of his passing and have reduced SPA and LPA down -2 and -3 points respectively.
Oriello wrote:Shot Accuracy +1 --dropped the Middle Shooting star trying to offset that by a slight increase here, still warrented considering his finishing was rated on par with any quality forward.
Shot Power -1
Added Middle Shooting back due to frequency issue, curlers be damned he was no where as consistently willing to shoot wihtout it. Unless the P13Long ranger card is independent and does not dampen the curl of the shot.
SA I am keeping at 85 and damn modern ladders too! As he is still putting them wide in game - so heshould not be too prolific and I have also dropped his Shot Power to 85
, camparing classically to Rivelino SA85
I really cannot see him ahead in in proper finishing - especially with that 97
sledge hammer he need not aim to get it past keepers, at SP 85
Deyna's efforts are often saved from distance in PES if not aimed for a low corner. It plays realistically on PES 5 not too sure how the more 'arcady' incarnations of the game with shit keepers will handle the stats.
ST dropped to 85
also level with Szarmach. Hope Jaxinho does not get wind of my three consecutive 85
's or there may be hell to pay.
Oriello wrote:Header -1
Jump +8 -- really undervalued, despised heading the ball (apparently the head is only for thinking to him XD) but from what I seen he could rise well on set pieces and get good direction and power.
Header back up +1, the best of the midfield in heading, also useful on defensive set pieces in clearing out the danger - I know those articles and reports of him disliking using his head to actually head the ball - but really he was very competent and good in this aspect.
Oriello wrote:Free Kick +7 --I never seen a free kick on goal by him (except that goal off a corner, but was that intentional?) hence why I was being conservative, but many sources insist that he was very capable, and that only Beckham rivals his ability to bend the ball. Still without actual footage I am reluctant to go silly, but the problem exists as I have found out that Polish league games were not recorded until the late 70's I think, so there is no video reference except for Internationals and some high profile European games (hopefully I will come across Legia-Milan 1973 matches (*fingers crossed*) where Deyna and Rivera both took turns in putting on masterclass displays, with Deyna supposedly scoring his greatest ever goal in the first leg some sort of remarkable volley) Yet never the less one written account stated how in a league game Deyna took an exquiste set piece into the top corner of the net, but the play was called back for some strange reason by the referre, yet on the resulting retake Deyna fooled the keeper who gambled on him aiming into the same corner, but Deyna shot around the bottom of the wall directly into the opposite bottom corner. So apparently he had a great command of aiming his efforts.
FK -1 86
I think sufficent for tat article basis, if not still overrated by maybe a point or two, I could see 84
here being good enough. Every
set piece for Poland, upwards of 10 he would be there only to lay off the ball on the ground or do a dummy execution the fk takers were Gadocha>Gorgon>Kasperczak(deliveries)>Deyna not once shooting on goal.. from a stats point of view I kept asking WTH!? Was that a one off where I read on the article about the two different corners being aimed for? Was he unconfident in 1974 - like Del Piero refusing to take Penalties for Italy in EURO 2008 clearly a master but just not up for it? By the way Gadocha was exceptional on FKs on goal, close several times including woodwork against Argentina and DEU.
Oriello wrote:Mentality -6
--I think I was 'trapped' in a EPL zone(no offence or anything) when I rated this and failed to appreciate that some of thse players in the 70's really went about the midfield in a 'delicate' fashion, very unlike modern all-rounders who do everything, while Deyna's game was definately more 'fractured'/segmented, sort of forwards score, midfilders create, and defenders defend, none of this Kuijt rubbish of playing like a right back because I am bored up front. Removed *Middle shooting
--Finally his shots are real! He was able to shoot from distance, in fact he could shoot from nearly anywhere, but the star was crippling his ability to give his shots theri famed curl, now their all beaatuies.
Mentality up to 75, -1 below the previous 76 since my last edit, I am taking into account the Summer heat and the general slow tempo of the games then, as looking across the board during the matches many ITA, DEU, BRA, players could be lower than their values indicate, EX Vogts not quite a 95+ in MEN in the DEU-POL game, and in the Wembley match he did give alot of effort - a bit of a headless chicken at times - but for the occasion a 78 was appropiate, well anyways on modern ladders Ibrahimovic and Balotelli though forwards exemplify a laziness that Deyna was not equal too, and would indeed haul ass when when danger was apparent EX twice against Braazil on set plays the defence failed to read the Brazilans clever set pieces and were caught cold only Deyna to come out of nowhere and clear in a last man manner, virtues ofResponse and Mnetality for myself.
Consistency was tinkered to a 6 but he was just too unreliable in the centre of the pitch, and he holds such a critical section of the pitch linking all that play, though as evident in that first video that he did make mistakes, the majority of the rest of his play was rather consistent - not Maldini spotless but better than an average 6.
TeamWork well there has been discussion to its nature in Prilo's thread, and by my own view I have to drop it on basis of TW encompassing not only vision, but all that other fun stuff like making your self avialable, supporting runs, cohesive defensive play in the second line in midfield etc. Looking at moden ladders Fabregas at 93
CMF, good compriosn and I feel that Deyna offered that bit more in helping the defense out as to be that +1 vpoint more - as otherwise he was almost a box-box player - not a frenzied all action man like Marchsio but pretty much anywhere where he was needed looking to help relive pressure and create something ath the same time.
Also in the three man midfield with him having no arrows and Med defense arrow he seems so well ballanced between ATT/DEF/TW/RES/AGG in involving himself at just the right quantity - from playing the ball out of defence to orchestrating in the middle to colluding upfront wth teammates for efforts on goal.
P07 Mazing Run is a guess by me whether it is what I think it might by from the text in the cards thread. But some of it is applicable "A great dribbler whose turns
and dummies are a handful for any defence
", one of his main weapons was these slow elegant turns, no need to be twisty just purposful and deliberate to loose a player or two while dribbling. Not too sure about dummies - I know some of the Polish players did them but I don't think Deyna was one (Gadocha/?Lato?/Szarmach/Musial I think were the ones). So not sure on the cards inclusion.
P03 – Classic No.10 might work with him, "An old-style static
playmaker who makes use of deft touches
and passes rather than pace or movement
."Not really static like Pirlo, Yes on deft touches, No to pace but yes to Movment
Heck I simply do not know.