Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974

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Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974

Postby Oriello » 2008 Dec 10, 20:38

Name: Kazimierz Deyna

Nickname: "Kaka"

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Club: Legia Warszawa




INFO:

Considered one of the best players, if not thee best, to ever hail from Poland. Was the general of any midfield he took part in, a footballing brain of the highest order allowed him to effortlessly organize the shape of a match from deep in midfield to the forefront of the attack. He was most greatly famed for his exquisite curling shots both from open play and set-pieces, he could make them from anywhere on the pitch and they were popularly known as "rogale" or croissants, in reference to their tremendous dip.

Deyna was not a player of pace or power but of pure and almost unrivalled genius, his mind simply operated on a different level, perfectly aware that the ball is always faster than any player. Deyna's leisurely style was exemplified by his fantastic dribbling, without any pace he could slice right through the heart of a team on technical execution alone, avoiding an array of opponents by anticipating the movements of his rivals and at times seemingly standing in place yet still bypassing defenders.

Deyna had a phenomenal ability to regulate the tempo of matches, highlighted by his magnificent long distance distribution; he was renowned to be a master of the surgical 30-meter pass, which in a single moment could turn a match on its head. At his peak was considered by some to be the paragon of a playmaker, Gerson tended to caress the ball for too long, Charlton played too mechanically, and Netzer had difficulty in balancing the individual and team aspects of the game, yet Deyna managed to strike an equilibrium.

For an attacker he read the game so exceptionally well that he often negated the presence of the very markers that were charged with neutralizing him. This understanding of the game offered him the opportunity to switch positions on the field seamlessly, this was best seen in international matches when he would have the opportunity to play with a collection of the most astute talents, most notably Lubanski, due to who's calibre the two were able to rotate freely between playmaking duties and becoming a typical centre forward.

Strangely despite his unquestionable talent he was only appreciated and loved in Warsaw, and generally detested and jeered in all other parts of Poland, especially in Śląsk, where the fans had their own beloved hero in Lubanski. While the two players were great friends personally, popular opinion outside the capital resonated that Lubanski was the greater player and the true symbol of Polish football. This dislike of Deyna could be explained by his affiliation with Legia which was a club infamous for recruiting and hording the best talents of the country, yet still there is no clear reason behind this general animosity of a player who helped to guide Poland to Gold in the Munich games, and after Lubanski's long term injury replaced him as captain and led Poland out of international wilderness to a third place in 1974 World Cup. Even when Deyna was recognized globally as a player of supreme class and ability, in Poland he was still regarded with a lack of respect, and this was not only limited to domestic appearances in the league, but bizarrely in home appearances for the Polish national team, where the most famous example (as there were numerous incidents) was in 1977 in a qualifier for the 1978 World Cup against Portugal when Deyna scored directly off a corner kick levelling the match at 1-1 and ensuring qualification, yet the supporters could not contain themselves and whistled Deyna at every opportunity.

From 1966 to 1978 he played for Legia Warszawa, winning two league titles and a domestic cup, appearing in 390 games for the club and scoring 141 goals. During this time he also participated in the 1972 Olympics winning gold and finishing top scorer with 9 goals in 7 matches. Came in third place behind Beckenbauer and Cruijff for the Ballon d'Or in 1974 (6th in 1972,1973). Won silver in the 1976 Olympics. In total appeared 97(102*) times for Poland scoring 41(45*) goals (*unofficial matches; olympic mathces not recognized by FIFA).

After the 1974 World Cup, Real Madrid sought the services of Deyna but was blocked by the Polish government, as Deyna was playing for Legia at the time, a military club, he was considered an officer of the army and forbidden to leave the country without permission. Also the rules at the time (in Poland) stated that no player may depart for another country until he was 30 years of age or older. Finally at the age of 31 Deyna moved to Manchester City, in his twilight he struggled with injuries and adapting to the English style of football, managing only 39 appearances and 13 goals in two and half years. Ultimately Deyna moved to the NASL playing for the San Diego Sockers for three years.

In 1981 he starred alongside Sylvester Stallone, Michael Caine, Bobby Moore, and Pelé in 'Escape to Victory', a film depicting a band of POW's forced to play a game of football against their German captors.

Sadly Deyna died in a road accident on September 1, 1989, only 41 years of age.



Last edited by Oriello on 2010 May 19, 23:48, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974

Postby Oriello » 2009 Feb 02, 01:14

list of changes

Defence -2 -- I based the original value more when he was played as a DMF/CMF(Pirlo'esque') against England at Wembley, he put in an honest shift for a guy being played out of his natural position, but I have no idea if he could do this regularily, and one of the issues with his faliure in Manchester City was beacuase they had no idea where to play him and he failed both as a typical centre forward and as holding player in the centre of the park. And one of the problems was his unwillingnes to tackle an opponent for the ball, he considered it to be ridiculous for him to go to ground to battle for a ball. ( Apparently fell in love with the idea of playing in England after the Wembley match, but he quickly regretted it as his style absolutely clashed like anti matter with what was excpected of him)
Balance +1
Top Speed -1 --these next sets of changes are more to replicate his dribbling more relistically, and of what I read I guess I would liken him to Dobrin, and this better suits that sort of walking with the ball -- strangely though he seemed to get faster when he had the ball. XD
Accelration +2
Agility -5
Dribble Speed -5

Short Pass Accuracy +2 --Sort of debated whether to give him *Passing, which would have increased the quality of his passing, so a bit of offsetting, also in test matches I would pass from the centre to a fullback and the ball is too hard and goes out of play!! What the Fuc|<!! Do not remeber any retard pass like that, if he is capable of that on 87 then an increas was needed. And I was agaianst *Passing as it made him play ulike himslef too many killer balls, while Deyna was the ultimate regualtor of matches and involved others into build up, he could slice any defence but did not attempt it so frequntly as to warrent the star, but by quality of passing should have it.
Long Pass Speed +2 --floated orbs all over the place, but in PES were getting intercepted far too much needed, this is probably maximum as his long passes were in direct contrast to a Gerrard rocket that only Maradona could bring down. :P
Shot Accuracy +1 --dropped the Middle Shooting star trying to offset that by a slight increase here, still warrented considering his finishing was rated on par with any quality forward.
Shot Power -1
Header -1
Jump +8 -- really undervalued, despised heading the ball (apparently the head is only for thinking to him XD) but from what I seen he could rise well on set pieces and get good direction and power.
Stamina +2 -- Pitor Mowlik former keeper and teammate stated that he was the best in the Legia squad at endurance training. And I have obliterated his Mentality trying to mimic his lethargic style, so he needs a bit more to last properly. 2 points ahead of Gadocha anothe Legia player, and if I ever get around to making Cimikiewicz then I will make sure to keep him around 83.
Free Kick +7 --I never seen a free kick on goal by him (except that goal off a corner, but was that intentional?) hence why I was being conservative, but many sources insist that he was very capable, and that only Beckham rivals his ability to bend the ball. Still without actual footage I am reluctant to go silly, but the problem exists as I have found out that Polish league games were not recorded until the late 70's I think, so there is no video reference except for Internationals and some high profile European games (hopefully I will come across Legia-Milan 1973 matches (*fingers crossed*) where Deyna and Rivera both took turns in putting on masterclass displays, with Deyna supposedly scoring his greatest ever goal in the first leg some sort of remarkable volley) Yet never the less one written account stated how in a league game Deyna took an exquiste set piece into the top corner of the net, but the play was called back for some strange reason by the referre, yet on the resulting retake Deyna fooled the keeper who gambled on him aiming into the same corner, but Deyna shot around the bottom of the wall directly into the opposite bottom corner. So apparently he had a great command of aiming his efforts.
Curling +1
Mentality -6 --I think I was 'trapped' in a EPL zone(no offence or anything) when I rated this and failed to appreciate that some of thse players in the 70's really went about the midfield in a 'delicate' fashion, very unlike modern all-rounders who do everything, while Deyna's game was definately more 'fractured'/segmented, sort of forwards score, midfilders create, and defenders defend, none of this Kuijt rubbish of playing like a right back because I am bored up front. :P
Removed *Middle shooting --Finally his shots are real! He was able to shoot from distance, in fact he could shoot from nearly anywhere, but the star was crippling his ability to give his shots theri famed curl, now their all beaatuies.

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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974

Postby Oriello » 2010 Jan 10, 19:25

General update

Oriello wrote:list of changes

Defence -2 -- I based the original value more when he was played as a DMF/CMF(Pirlo'esque') against England at Wembley, he put in an honest shift for a guy being played out of his natural position, but I have no idea if he could do this regularily, and one of the issues with his faliure in Manchester City was beacuase they had no idea where to play him and he failed both as a typical centre forward and as holding player in the centre of the park. And one of the problems was his unwillingnes to tackle an opponent for the ball, he considered it to be ridiculous for him to go to ground to battle for a ball. ( Apparently fell in love with the idea of playing in England after the Wembley match, but he quickly regretted it as his style absolutely clashed like anti matter with what was excpected of him)
But Oriello you are talking out of your ass again, as indeed he was playing the 1970's equivalent of the Pirlo role from Poland against England at Wembley, and this was due to team tactics of only playing to abosrob a rabid English side on the romp for goals galore as the Poles needed only a draw to secure qualifiaction. In anycase Oriello you clearly missed that while he was fielded exclusively as a CMF for Poland in 1974 he displayed excellent positional sense easily worthy of a 66 rating but considering comaritively a CMF/AMF hybird such as Lampard at 67 Defence currently you would be well within your frame of mind to give him a similar value as in reality though he may have put in a less labour intensive shift he was juast as capable of deciphering play and stopping it like Lampard is now a days. The classic Lampard being DEF 69 RES 90, and if Pirlo gets a 69-70 DEF - despite tackling more than Deyna (did he ever go to ground? :lol: ) his positional sense was not any 3-4(+) points better.

Oriello wrote:Balance +1

Balance +2 - That little thought process back in the Boniek thread already had me considering it and from the play he was indeed 'strong' and looking at West Germany players and others when watching the match the 82 fitted well in the ladders, though he was not in the slightest a physical player - those that tried to be with him to their dismay found him able resist quite a bit more than his frail figure might convey. Noticable on setplays when competing for high balls he often claimed due to factors of ATT/DEF/RES but at the same time was not knocked of his leap and won pretty much everything in the air he decided to go for.

Oriello wrote:Top Speed -1 --these next sets of changes are more to replicate his dribbling more relistically, and of what I read I guess I would liken him to Dobrin, and this better suits that sort of walking with the ball -- strangely though he seemed to get faster when he had the ball. XD
Accelration +2
Agility -5
Dribble Speed -5
Yes from a textual point of view he may have been akin to Dobrin indeed, but Oriello once again your muddling with stats has had diastrous consequences. Top Speed is a difficult one, as he was perferred walker on the pitch, but I might have take into account the possible Summer heat of the WC, yet never-the-less his ability to almost 'charge' through midfield at oppurtune moments could only be possible with a 78 TS minmum, but he would do this at most once every three matches - and potentially why it was so effective as many players thoguht him to be naturally slow were wrong footed when he decided to change gears and were left in the dust.

In my notes Deyna actually out paced Bell (struggling to keep pace) TS 86 ACC 88 - with the ball! Well pulling that kind of shit off is liable to confuse anyone.

Anyways at the current TS 76 and DS 78 he seems to feel about right in that he most prod his way through a congested midfield, but if a gap is their a quick turn and shift of the ball and the opposing players will be admiring Deyna's ass - it is do-able when playing with him yourself as the 93 DA and TECH 94 (perfect ratings I think, fit him like a glove) help to create this classy driblling.

Of those stats I think Acceleration was his outright weakest element, and I may have confused those clever turns of body to shift/dance around an opponent within a 3 yard space as a rapid ACC to a low TS but if looked over a longer idstance he did have "pace" TS that is, but it took him ages at times to get there anything over 10 meters he would not win through accelration.

Oriello wrote:Short Pass Accuracy +2 --Sort of debated whether to give him *Passing, which would have increased the quality of his passing, so a bit of offsetting, also in test matches I would pass from the centre to a fullback and the ball is too hard and goes out of play!! What the Fuc|<!! Do not remeber any retard pass like that, if he is capable of that on 87 then an increas was needed. And I was agaianst *Passing as it made him play ulike himslef too many killer balls, while Deyna was the ultimate regualtor of matches and involved others into build up, he could slice any defence but did not attempt it so frequntly as to warrent the star, but by quality of passing should have it.
Long Pass Speed +2 --floated orbs all over the place, but in PES were getting intercepted far too much needed, this is probably maximum as his long passes were in direct contrast to a Gerrard rocket that only Maradona could bring down. :P
Well I cannot deny *Passing to him on the basis of frequency, he did pull them off even if from his deeper role he would only playmake, and only when played as a AMF or when higher up during a match would he risk a threaded ball, but indeed he did have the eyes to spot the gaps (through the legs of Bennetti :lol: ) and deliver some really tantalizing balls - the only criticsim would be they were given with to much weight and had a similar result to Juves Diego form of going too far ahead of the strikers at times.

In anycase with the addition of the *Passing star I have taken measures to regulate the quality of his passing and have reduced SPA and LPA down -2 and -3 points respectively.

Oriello wrote:Shot Accuracy +1 --dropped the Middle Shooting star trying to offset that by a slight increase here, still warrented considering his finishing was rated on par with any quality forward.
Shot Power -1
Added Middle Shooting back due to frequency issue, curlers be damned he was no where as consistently willing to shoot wihtout it. Unless the P13[]Long ranger card is independent and does not dampen the curl of the shot.

SA I am keeping at 85 and damn modern ladders too! As he is still putting them wide in game - so heshould not be too prolific and I have also dropped his Shot Power to 85, camparing classically to Rivelino SA85 SP97 ST85 I really cannot see him ahead in in proper finishing - especially with that 97 sledge hammer he need not aim to get it past keepers, at SP 85 Deyna's efforts are often saved from distance in PES if not aimed for a low corner. It plays realistically on PES 5 not too sure how the more 'arcady' incarnations of the game with shit keepers will handle the stats.

ST dropped to 85 also level with Szarmach. Hope Jaxinho does not get wind of my three consecutive 85's or there may be hell to pay. :D

Oriello wrote:Header -1
Jump +8 -- really undervalued, despised heading the ball (apparently the head is only for thinking to him XD) but from what I seen he could rise well on set pieces and get good direction and power.
Header back up +1, the best of the midfield in heading, also useful on defensive set pieces in clearing out the danger - I know those articles and reports of him disliking using his head to actually head the ball - but really he was very competent and good in this aspect.

Oriello wrote:Free Kick +7 --I never seen a free kick on goal by him (except that goal off a corner, but was that intentional?) hence why I was being conservative, but many sources insist that he was very capable, and that only Beckham rivals his ability to bend the ball. Still without actual footage I am reluctant to go silly, but the problem exists as I have found out that Polish league games were not recorded until the late 70's I think, so there is no video reference except for Internationals and some high profile European games (hopefully I will come across Legia-Milan 1973 matches (*fingers crossed*) where Deyna and Rivera both took turns in putting on masterclass displays, with Deyna supposedly scoring his greatest ever goal in the first leg some sort of remarkable volley) Yet never the less one written account stated how in a league game Deyna took an exquiste set piece into the top corner of the net, but the play was called back for some strange reason by the referre, yet on the resulting retake Deyna fooled the keeper who gambled on him aiming into the same corner, but Deyna shot around the bottom of the wall directly into the opposite bottom corner. So apparently he had a great command of aiming his efforts.
Curling +1
FK -1 86 I think sufficent for tat article basis, if not still overrated by maybe a point or two, I could see 84-85 here being good enough. Every set piece for Poland, upwards of 10 he would be there only to lay off the ball on the ground or do a dummy execution the fk takers were Gadocha>Gorgon>Kasperczak(deliveries)>Deyna not once shooting on goal.. from a stats point of view I kept asking WTH!? Was that a one off where I read on the article about the two different corners being aimed for? Was he unconfident in 1974 - like Del Piero refusing to take Penalties for Italy in EURO 2008 clearly a master but just not up for it? By the way Gadocha was exceptional on FKs on goal, close several times including woodwork against Argentina and DEU.

Oriello wrote:Mentality -6 --I think I was 'trapped' in a EPL zone(no offence or anything) when I rated this and failed to appreciate that some of thse players in the 70's really went about the midfield in a 'delicate' fashion, very unlike modern all-rounders who do everything, while Deyna's game was definately more 'fractured'/segmented, sort of forwards score, midfilders create, and defenders defend, none of this Kuijt rubbish of playing like a right back because I am bored up front. :P
Removed *Middle shooting --Finally his shots are real! He was able to shoot from distance, in fact he could shoot from nearly anywhere, but the star was crippling his ability to give his shots theri famed curl, now their all beaatuies.
Mentality up to 75, -1 below the previous 76 since my last edit, I am taking into account the Summer heat and the general slow tempo of the games then, as looking across the board during the matches many ITA, DEU, BRA, players could be lower than their values indicate, EX Vogts not quite a 95+ in MEN in the DEU-POL game, and in the Wembley match he did give alot of effort - a bit of a headless chicken at times - but for the occasion a 78 was appropiate, well anyways on modern ladders Ibrahimovic and Balotelli though forwards exemplify a laziness that Deyna was not equal too, and would indeed haul ass when when danger was apparent EX twice against Braazil on set plays the defence failed to read the Brazilans clever set pieces and were caught cold only Deyna to come out of nowhere and clear in a last man manner, virtues ofResponse and Mnetality for myself.



Other thoughts;

Consistency was tinkered to a 6 but he was just too unreliable in the centre of the pitch, and he holds such a critical section of the pitch linking all that play, though as evident in that first video that he did make mistakes, the majority of the rest of his play was rather consistent - not Maldini spotless but better than an average 6.

TeamWork well there has been discussion to its nature in Prilo's thread, and by my own view I have to drop it on basis of TW encompassing not only vision, but all that other fun stuff like making your self avialable, supporting runs, cohesive defensive play in the second line in midfield etc. Looking at moden ladders Fabregas at 93 CMF, good compriosn and I feel that Deyna offered that bit more in helping the defense out as to be that +1 vpoint more - as otherwise he was almost a box-box player - not a frenzied all action man like Marchsio but pretty much anywhere where he was needed looking to help relive pressure and create something ath the same time.

Also in the three man midfield with him having no arrows and Med defense arrow he seems so well ballanced between ATT/DEF/TW/RES/AGG in involving himself at just the right quantity - from playing the ball out of defence to orchestrating in the middle to colluding upfront wth teammates for efforts on goal.

P07 Mazing Run is a guess by me whether it is what I think it might by from the text in the cards thread. But some of it is applicable "A great dribbler whose turns and dummies are a handful for any defence", one of his main weapons was these slow elegant turns, no need to be twisty just purposful and deliberate to loose a player or two while dribbling. Not too sure about dummies - I know some of the Polish players did them but I don't think Deyna was one (Gadocha/?Lato?/Szarmach/Musial I think were the ones). So not sure on the cards inclusion.

P03 – Classic No.10 might work with him, "An old-style static playmaker who makes use of deft touches and passes rather than pace or movement."Not really static like Pirlo, Yes on deft touches, No to pace but yes to Movment :lol: Heck I simply do not know.

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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974

Postby Plava Čigra » 2010 Jan 10, 21:18

After reading this update report I can give a few suggestions.

1. P05: Trickster suits him better then P07: Mazing Run. I'm not saying that just because he has *Tactical Dribble, P05: Trickster suits better to slower players and the ones with greater DA.

2. P03: Classic No.10 really could work for him, especially if he liked to slow down and just use his technique and passing in order to organize game better. Once again, P Cards can be turned off. ;)

3. Free Kick Accuracy: 86 - Puskas has the same value (with much lower Curling, off course). Many people say that he was a great FK taker. I found one or two of his goals from free kick (pretty good precision) and that helped me to make up my mind and suggest 86 for FKA. So, in conclusion, if you didn't saw him scoring from FK, but you've read about it I think you can be a bit more conservative, something like 83-84 (due to his Curling he'll still be quite a danger from FKs). When you see his goals from FKs, it won't be too much of a problem to raise it. ;)

4. Growth Type: Standard - I've noticed that when Standard is used in ML, player's stats begin to drop after he reach 25-26 years. With Standard/Lasting he's able to held his current stats longer (although not until the end of his career). You know Deyna better then me... It's your call. :)

***

I'm not suggesting anything, this is just an observation. It's not too hard to score from distance in PES2010 (but not as easy as it was in PES6). With his shooting stats Deyna will be deadly from 20-30m distance. I've used Negredo in Master League with his default stats (SA: 81, SP: 85, ST: 80), as soon as I got the game, and he scored more then 14 goals from around that distance (most of his goals were from 25m or more). Negredo has no Cards in his default stats.

For the end just a small, general note. Please try to add Attack/Defence Awareness Card to your players stats after you've written your Special Abilities. It's very easy to add, there are only 3 choices: Attack Minded, Balanced, Defence Minded. Deyna could have Attack/Defence Awareness Card: Balanced, in my opinion.

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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974

Postby Oriello » 2010 Jan 10, 23:21

Thnaks for the input.

1. Well I will trust you from your explanation in the Musial thread that the Konami wording/definition of the cards is not necessarily accurate and on in game visual play the cards are a bit different. Will switch now, just hope he does not start doing stupid Figo/Ronaldo stepovers in midfield - none of that silly shit was bothered with by the Poles, they were more about end product then flashy moves that ultimately acheived nothing.

2. Yeah :lol: by my breakdown of the defenition at the end as you seen only half of it applied to him :D , so I guess we can risk it and see if people complain or something. Also noticed it only applicable to AMF and CMF - I guess it will not even be utilised by the game in my version of the Polish formation. :?

3. No problems with a solid 84 for me, just the article I found - besides his actual crossaint shots I know that Polish writers stated that only when Beckham began scoring FK's was Deyna's level of Curl and dip seen again, my major basis for Curling in 97 range -1 below Beckham.

4. 26/27 seems about his peak, would not say he got better after this, maybe even stagnated a bit in terms of development, he most likley should not be a 'lasting' growth type. The Manchester City move was a clear window into a player past his 'physical' prime, much slower and a bit overweight - Things the English style of play would punish - as long as only his physical stats drop than there should not be too much problem, as his technical aspects allowed him to continue in America right until his death, NASL but still got something like 200 goals in 300 games - a bit tied in with your comment about the lethality of his shooting. ;)


About shooting, like I mentioned I had reservations of toning down the shooting due to Rivelino's set - I could not see Rivelino that much more capable, especially with those wayward efforts in 74 :? - not to imply Deyna did not hit ones off target in attempts at glory from distance, but a great deal of the time his finishing within the box was as clinical as any striker and when close in a keeper he aimed for top corners, rather than powering through efforts.

Comparisons
############SA#SP#ST#CARDS/STARS
Kaka#########83#86#87#*1-1 Scoring
classic Kaka####84#86#87#*Middle Shooting *1-1 Scoring
Lampard#######83#89#85#*Middle Shooting
classic Lampard##86#90#86#*Middle shooting
Gerrard#######81#93#85#*Middle Shooting *1-1 Scoring

Some of these are aided by *1-1 scoring in addition to better power, I think Deyna preferred to place often - even at distance over just blasting it - as when he did try from 40 + yards, Haiti match he would sky them, but as in the Italy match when he is not going for brute power he was forcing Zoff into decent saves from just in and around the box. I know you were not suggesting anything, but I will play with SA 84 a bit more and see if I can settle on it, just instantly lookin at classic Kaka aided by 1-1scoring at 84 thinking Deyna should not be that bit behind the Brazilian or +2 behind Prime Lampard...anyways things to think on for me. :)


Yeah I seen that awarness card in your examplars from that 'read or GTFO :P' thread, I just had no idea what it was. Is there a descreption of how to judge it properly for all the positions somewhere, so I can try to nail it down better for the other players?

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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974

Postby Plava Čigra » 2010 Jan 10, 23:57

Well, I don't know is there any special explanation about Attack/Defence Awareness Card (at least I didn't saw it :? ). Basically you can give a player default Awareness Card, but you can still change it before you play the game in PES2010 (so even if you put Balanced you can still change to, for example, Defence Minded or Attack Minded). I assume it means that player will be strictly focused on Attack or Defence or he will balance between the two.

These are my examples for it (the way I understand this Card).

1. I tend to give Attack/Defence Awareness Card: Balanced to attackers who like to drop deep and help out while their team is defending. On the other hand, to poachers, who solely focus on attack, I always give Attack/Defence Awareness Card: Attack Minded. I'm not sure is there attacker that could claim Attack/Defence Awareness Card: Defence Minded...

2. Side backs that solely focus on attack (and don't like to drop too deep and help out to the rest of the defence), I give Attack/Defence Awareness Card: Attack Minded.


I hope these examples help out a bit. ;)

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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974

Postby Oriello » 2010 Jan 11, 00:14

Oh okay, that did help a bit, I just had no idea if they related to that stats - like giving one card over another meant you might ave to tinker with AGG/ATT/DEF. But that does not seem to be the case at all.

For Defensive Minded Attacker, I guess maybe for Rooney sometimes against tough opposition for united when he doubled up with the SB and basically played LB/RB #2 :lol:?

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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974

Postby SpongeBob » 2010 May 19, 13:57

Seeing you started with massive lowering of Polish players stats, I hope you'll skip this thread Oriello :lol: He's already underrated so please don't lower
him more.

Kazimierz Deyna - the unforgettable spiritual leader of Poland team. It's almost 21 years since you're gone. An eternal idol for all of us communists.
We'll never forget you. I saw pictures of his car after crash and now I wish I didn't. I almost started to cry as it's happened yesterday.

Anyway there are about 15-20 videos on this site: http://embedr.com/playlist/kazimierz-deyna_2


P.S. And Oriello I didn't forget your promise about White Mountain :lol:

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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974

Postby Oriello » 2010 May 19, 22:55

SpongeBob wrote:An eternal idol for all of us communists.


:o

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SpongeBob never forget, your body may have been manufactured in China, but your an American cartoon!!!
;) :lol:


SpongeBob wrote:Seeing you started with massive lowering of Polish players stats, I hope you'll skip this thread Oriello :lol: He's already underrated so please don't lower
him more.
I have!? :shock: I just adjust players to what I think they might correlate to ladders in the Serie A (as I am most familar with it) - I initally may have gone over board a year or so ago when the norms of big mods like S-J23 were more common, but I am just trying to keep in line with the general trend now-a-days of the site. The players all should ladder well in game to everyother player (current era included) to get good balance, at least I hope thats what happens - I do not want to make any Terminator PES players :) .

Do not worry about Deyna in his prime, I think the stats are very representative of him in those years - but I did make a set for 1978 WC (posting after I finish this post) that I think you may want to look away for, if you think I 'underrated' him in his peak years. :P

I will see if I can include a video or two from that site into first post, though some seem to be old men flapping their gums in Polish about him - not going to do any good for an English based forum :lol:, I will check for some with a goal that will not be repeated from a earlier vid.


EDIT - updated first post with second set and two new vids, on the 1978 set his SA/ST might be underrated as he was screwing an awful many shot off target and clearly misplaced his shooting boots - often taking forever to shoot - trying to dribble everyone for the perfect pass into net - as I mentioned before in a previous post his goal record for a CMF/AMF is Lampard like astonishing (SS was only early in his career 1972 and before) so the 77/75 might seem harsh but I went on visual evidence rather than goal tallies or anything. MEN too might be a bit soft, in the last match agaisnt Brasil (win or out) he raised himself from his tournament slump and his passes were finally on, and he was working through out MF like in 1974 - though was this for the occasion or as a 30 year old have that streaky nature to him , good somedays and off the rest? So unsure if Men should be closer to his 1974 75 value considering Consistency is 4 now. Finally since Gadocha retired he was the main set piece taker, and took them with either foot, and nearly scored a few. Passes also gained more range and sharpness in his twilight years, before everything was measured with an exacting labour, in 78 seemed more inclined for the spontenous pass that would maintain the quicker tempo of the move - though still liable for his traditional slow downs when on the ball (since he lost that killer touch and dribble it was frustrating to watch as he could no longer glide through midfield, but just kept losing the ball if under too much pressure :|.

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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974 & 1977-1978

Postby SpongeBob » 2010 May 20, 08:07

Oriello wrote:but your an American cartoon!!!


I didn't know it's an American cartoon, I thought it's a German cartoon.
Actually my nick is an abbreviation for SpongeBob Schwammkopf, since I saw it few times on German TV , I thought it's their
cartoon :oops:

Well I was wondering if Deyna could see small boost in his passing values? And if you are a Polish could you please translate
that video with Legia player, man from museum and old bald man? I would like to know what are they saying about General.

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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974 & 1977-1978

Postby Oriello » 2010 May 21, 16:41

SpongeBob wrote:
Oriello wrote:but your an American cartoon!!!


I didn't know it's an American cartoon, I thought it's a German cartoon.
Actually my nick is an abbreviation for SpongeBob Schwammkopf, since I saw it few times on German TV , I thought it's their
cartoon :oops:

:lol: I had no idea other countries had appropiated that cartoon to destroy the minds of their youths :P, actually the German version still seems to capture the sharp witty nature of the show :mrgreen: ;



And SpongBob I think I found a real communist Sponge Bob;
:lol:

SpongeBob wrote:And if you are a Polish could you please translate
that video with Legia player, man from museum and old bald man? I would like to know what are they saying about General.


I only know a bit of Polish (more so recently after forcing myself to learn to read the lagnuage after all this research, a benefical experince personally of doing stats for this site! :D ) and these guys are talking really too fast for me to hang onto and distinguish every word (a great deal very mushed up jargon in my ears still) I rewatched some areas a few times but it is still very difficult for myself to understand - I will try to get the jist of it, maybe Sikor could do a better job if he stumbles by :).




Andrzej Strejlau; Something about working with Deyna on national team (He was one of the staff) and Legia, and that in that period before leaving for Manchester City the opinon about him was (some phrase) [great player I guess] - 3rd behind Cruijff, (I think) Strejlau mentions Deyna was most pleased with that accolade.

Wiktor Bolba; He was not some awesome dribbler or sprinter, simply...(Bolba flusters here I have no idea WTF he is saying)..People were angered when he did his little turns, but all the same he did make his little turns and in those moments, inspiration struck him and he made unconventional plays.

Andrzej Strejlau: He was like [I think he says (Lucjan) Brychczy] he had excellent (some word) -- nerves muscles (way too fast for me), he innately 'felt' (again some bloody weird word) - some people made dirty of the fact, that Deyna kept making his little turns, truthfully how he makes one then a second -- (something) he changed the course and no fan (I think a word like "could comprehend") and equally no manager/coach who sat like a fan on the stadium.

Stefan Szczelplek: This was a very (some word (uczliwy!?!?! WTF?)) person, he was simple in the sense that he did not have a large (some big ass word), but he was very (again uczliwy (i must be spelling it wrong as I cannot find it in my dictionary)), very right, he was a normal boy - having the years he had going to Legia, he had how many - 19 (years).

Jakub Konarski; He was someone in whom we could see ourselfs, on his [excursions] for example or in his matches, we as a detested people of Warsaw or detested supporters of Legia, he felt something like this too as a player (some phrase that is too much for me, basically he was disliked/hated, very much an uncounted individual) like no one else on the national team, like in that match in 1977 against Portugal in Silesian stadium.

Andrzej Strejlau: This was a tramuatic life for one [footballer (i think)], small for small that he did score that goal that did give us an advance to the World Cup. (Something) and he declares that he will never again play in that stadium, and for what I remember he kept his word.

Wiktor Bolba: Kasek (short for Kazmirez I gather) himself was stumped as to why people hate him so much, truthfully for the National team he shot so many goals, he was such a strong point of our national team, thankfully to him the team reached its highest success'. Tried to understand why did people in Poznan hate him, for he had a wife that was from Poznan. Why did they hate him in (someplace), for he came/raised from (that place), truth/right? But this was due to Legia, nowhere liked, and probably also because he brought (someword) the supporters of the other teams.

Stefan Szczelplek: (something) life gave him a bone, and he displayed (something) that people normally do that have problems (in life), and then he began to drink more (some long sentence) hazard he wanted to strike away all his that he lost, he lost it through the taking of the wrong manager he lost around a million dollars, for the money of that era it was a fortune (I do not really understand how he lost this money, an actual Polish person might help here :mrgreen:). In those casinos drank massive money, it lead him to his edge/end mentally.

Wiktor Bolba: A little later his life got complicated, apparently he did not handle it well, he was not so strong mentally in life (someword), in his private life as he was on the field, truth/right? And he began to use a little too much alcohol, and this lost him.

Stefan Szczelplek: If not for all that, then I would not stand here, but he would and would tell of how beatiful it was some 30 years ago.

Wiktor Bolba: There are two versions, accident, he had two (someword) alcohol in the blood, truth/right? So he either fell asleep behind the wheel or saw too late (some phrase) [ and I think, "truck"] - it is difficult to know, it is not highlighted. (Some phrase) people close to him, acquaintances (someword)..(something, I have no clue this Bola guy rambles too much and I cannot pick out words)

Jakub Konarski; Mnay people have weaknesses he too had his weaknesses as a simple (someword), and those weaknesses in history (someword) we can learn -- ruined his life in some measure, and I think the memory of him [might be stained (i think)].

Inscription: Is a symbol of the greatness of Legia. Behind No-one as the best in Polish football, excellent example of football genius. "Unforgotten Legend" -- Supporters of Legia Warsaw



SpongeBob wrote:Well I was wondering if Deyna could see small boost in his passing values?

In which stats, and what values were you thinking?

-If I could just give my view; the LPA is only as high as it is because of texts and how he was regarded highly in that area of his passing, but on a basis of watching him I personally was not exceptionally impressed (87 maybe 89 I was thinking), so due to praise of ability that is why I put him -1 below Gadocha in LPA, a player who very much impressed me with an uncanny accuracy at times. The LPS value I touched on in the thread earlier of how he tended to loft many passes in that 26 age timeframe, and though he could hit a few at pace, they then seemed rushed and lacked precision (too far ahead of the intended player).

SPA I was actually thinking about Thiago at juventus and how he was sort of mesmerizing me with these deft passes that I thought on accuracy/execution alone were Thiago was worthy of 87 (I think Thiago sat on an 86) and sort of held Deyna to that standard of trying to impress me equally, and he somewhat did (different types of passers) but Deyna could pull really neat tight passe through legs of opponents, so at an 87 World class value I thought it was at a good spot in consideration of the *Passing star and the TW of 94 - my view was that Deyna was more of a thinking passer than a player who could lay down a Rui Costa like pass with awesome precision, he envisioned the space, though my viewing of him is limited to some almost 20 matches but I do not recall anything really earth shattering to be worthy of a 90+ value. To myself, he seen the match in his head and kept the tempo really well, but he was not a pure artist that would continually baffle opposition with unpredictable and devestating passing.

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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974 & 1977-1978

Postby SpongeBob » 2010 May 22, 07:55

Thanks for translating that dear Oriello. You were right in those last Wiktor Bolba's words. He had collision with truck and the car was so flattened,
it's a horror what remained of the car, I wish I never saw that pics. I don't believe he was under alcohol in that moment, he was coming back from
children's training which he guided and I think it was still a morning.

I was thinking, could he have SPA 89 and SPS up by 1-2 points? As you said he wasn't Rui Costa but when I watched him (not as much as you) he
rarely missed a pass. And there should be some borders or levels in comparing old players with current ones. Player like Deyna DOESN'T EXIST
right now and will never exist anymore in the future. Deyna's brain was on another higher level than any other player's. Today you must be a butcher if
you want to play on highest level. Rui Costa and Zidane were last artists in this game, game which becomse hit hard-run more game. It's an insult to
compare Tiago or any other current player with Kaz. KAZIMIERZ DEYNA WAS ONE, UNIQUE AND THE BEST EVER MIDFIELD'S CONDUCTOR.

He didn't deserve such a tragic end. R.I.P. :cry:

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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974 & 1977-1978

Postby Oriello » 2010 May 26, 14:32

SpongeBob wrote:I don't believe he was under alcohol in that moment, he was coming back from
children's training which he guided and I think it was still a morning.
It is possible both accounts could be true at the same time - returning from that child training session and a bit under the influence. But it does seem pretty sad to have been barred from making a fortune in his prime out in the West, then once he did get to England/America in his decline yet apparently still did manage to rake in a fortune (according to the video) then to lose it all - and fall on hard times (I think I read his wife left him too) so much so that he died relatively 'young'.

Though if the liqoured up part is true then I am very MADD! If true then he was simply being a jackass in consideration of others driving like that.


SpongeBob wrote:I was thinking, could he have SPA 89 and SPS up by 1-2 points? As you said he wasn't Rui Costa but when I watched him (not as much as you) he
rarely missed a pass. And there should be some borders or levels in comparing old players with current ones. Player like Deyna DOESN'T EXIST
right now and will never exist anymore in the future. Deyna's brain was on another higher level than any other player's.
It is true he rarely did miss a pass, though that could partly be owed to his regista role - similar to Pirlo at Milan, Deyna played in front of the defence (Yet way more box to box than stagnent Pirlo) and though he was the main dictator of what would happen on the pitch, much of it was like Pirlo does - with lateral passes, or an angled pass after a dribbling move (which would clear up opposition from interfering with a pass) to open play up. I just think that a player like Guti at SPA 90 has that more clear ability of being able to split a defence apart (through forests of legs) and give the easiest of set ups to others - for me a 90 represents a pass in which the setup is so accurate/wonderful that the recipents workload in scoring is cut in half, and an 89 approachs that level too close in view of Deyna for myself, his weighting in penetrating passes seemed off and away from any sort of mastery. Though I must concede to democracy again :x , and if anyone else thinks along the same lines as you do and believes a raise in SPA would reflect more accuratness then I will raise it accordingly. ;) Like I wrote I have not seen that many matches of Deyna so he very well could have been a differnt beast for Legia or in other international matches, possibly ones you seen SpongeBob where he more obviously showcased passing above what I rated him here.

Just one final food for thought, here is a vid of a brilliant moment from Del Piero two seasons ago now, but I think he was SPA 87 (*Passing) then (now he gots 85), this was not a everyday pass but something a cut above for Del Piero - yet this is the sort of thing I would like to have seen (or see in future footage) to even begin to be convinced of a higher SPA for Deyna, assuming he could pull it off consistently.


The SPS at 82 I put is what I think was maximum for him at that age - of course there could have been a few passes that zipped quicker, but on everage he actually had a very lazy ground pass (shockingly not intercepted more often), Maszzyk and Kasperczak were more regular in giving a speedy pass -- in fact Gadocha had the best ground passing of the lot in terms of safety in SPS, the only reason I got Deyna up to 82 was because he 'could' hit long distance ground passes like no one else on the team - even though in general his SPS was more like 75-77, he needed an 82 if he ever was to do it in PES even 'sometimes'.

As I mentioned earlier in 1978 Deyna had very much improved his passing speeds - especially on set-pieces both LPS and SPS was like 86-88 - so I balanced with what he gave in normal play - and feel that the 1978 version should contrast him in 1974, when in 1974 he was not spontaneous/direct and took his sweet time but was more accurate and on target.

And I do not know what kinda of 'borders' there should be between comparing past and present players :? - it is mostly subjective rating a player anyway - so having well argued ladders of modern players as reference points I think is good, especially if these stats are meant to be used across eras, possibly against a modern team in PES.

SpongeBob wrote:It's an insult to compare Tiago or any other current player with Kaz. KAZIMIERZ DEYNA WAS ONE, UNIQUE AND THE BEST EVER MIDFIELD'S CONDUCTOR.
:lol: I was just comparing them two in SPA alone, not overall - I think Deyna's overshadowing Thiago in pretty much every other department does not diminish Deyna's image :lol:.

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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974 & 1977-1978

Postby Pumpernikiel » 2010 Aug 12, 14:22

Oriello wrote:Stefan Szczelplek: This was a very (some word (uczliwy!?!?! WTF?)) person...

uczciwy - honest, don't even try to pronounce it! :). Really hard for non-polish people.. at least for non-slavic :).

IMO stats of players you make are really, really reliable, you don't overrate them. I'm sure you spend many hours creating them - the results are fantastic.

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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974 & 1977-1978

Postby Blade_Runner » 2012 Oct 17, 02:45

There's been no new posts in this topic for quite some time, but maybe someone will answer :) I wonder why there is a major drop of technical abilities (especially technique itself) between those sets of stats. Large drops of speed or stamina over the years are understandable, but big drops of technical abilities are pretty uncommon.

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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974 & 1977-1978

Postby blumbas » 2013 May 25, 14:59

This set is so bad. Deyna was one of the best player in his generation. Need higer pass stats and better technique too. Sorry for my English.

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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974 & 1977-1978

Postby Oriello » 2013 Jun 01, 16:06

Blade_Runner wrote:There's been no new posts in this topic for quite some time, but maybe someone will answer :) I wonder why there is a major drop of technical abilities (especially technique itself) between those sets of stats. Large drops of speed or stamina over the years are understandable, but big drops of technical abilities are pretty uncommon.


Pretty much like in the Boniek thread, the set from 1978 is a representation of what he showed at the World Cup - and like Boniek he was not very good - stats are accurate for that timeframe - overall he may have still retained his technical qualities better at club level ...anyways I just noticed those have been deleted - so issue resolved :lol: .

blumbas wrote:This set is so bad. Deyna was one of the best player in his generation. Need higer pass stats and better technique too. Sorry for my English.


Thanks mate, I aim to displease.

I notice some changes have happened to his passing, Accuracies upped/Speeds lowered - like for Boniek - is this due to how the new games are? do all players have to be reworked to this sort of...ratio?

I know others (SpongeBob) see him as a better passer, I still disagree about orange values on his Short Pass Accuracy, and this is not just from a world cup, but like 20-30 matches, i dont think he was ever 90+ spa, but thats just me. LPA should be over his SPA.


Seeing Bonieks modernizing/standardizing with increase in Attack - yeah suppose 88 works, looking at modern analogues for reference; Xavi and Pirlo...Defence could be dropped to 65, closer to Xavi.

Agility is probably down because of the new gen games, Dribble Speed could come down as well to 73-74 Xavi/Pirlo level.


I have been using a tweaked version on my own OF, after looking at JeanMarc's (SpongeBob) stats in one of his websites a while ago - he gave him *Reaction and higher Aggresion (84 I think), having played with him in Poland's 1974 formation, I am sure these are necessary changes to make him more accurate (the forward attack arrow is rubbish by comparison).

*Outside is not a strength of his, but in his repertoire - it could be added too.

..looking at JeanMarc's version now, on that other pes site , he gave him *1-1 Scoring ... man, JeanMarc gots balls :lol: . Jean Marc if you read this, I am not attacking you by proxy or anything - just not 100% onboard with your set, a bit uberman of a finisher (SA 86/SP 84/ST 89/ *1-1) - I can see where your coming from overall though, he was an exquisite shooter.

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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974

Postby Fantasista » 2013 Jun 01, 20:32

Definetely lpa over spa, should be in red region IMO. His crosses were immense, he could pass the ball with perfect precision from any place on the pitch.

I also don't know why he is rated so low in terms of overall speed and mobileness. In his physical peak and NT best times (1972-74) although not a speedster he was pretty decent, high greens IMO, well, maybe TS could stay as it is. Obviously it changed with time and he became more a stationary type playmaker.

Agree with Oriello about Def, it should be lowered, maybe even more than around 65, he was definetely offensive players, didn't really contributed much in defense, always had some box to box CM or DM to do def. work for him.

I will try to find some footage as soon as I can to justify speed increase and some free kicks by him since I think he deserves a bit more than that. Just don't have time now.

we should try to be a little nice to newer members, even if they are retards
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Re: Kazimierz DEYNA | 1973-1974

Postby Oriello » 2013 Jun 07, 12:14

On speed, yes he was high greens, but he usually did only one full out sprint per match :lol: , and I am completely serious - he sort of conservatively jogged everywhere 80-90% of the time, and then he would completely out of nowhere speed up, in an attack scenario, usually throwing off his markers, resulting in a rash foul or a goal scoring situation..yet in pes people and the CPU would just use that speed non-stop to close down and rush him forward in a counter - he would be all busy busy, 'look at my 78/79 TS suckers, normally I use this to good effect by keeping it in reserve for an opportune moment, but this is a video game so I rush, rush, rush"..well you get the idea. :D

On defense, it is true he relied very much on others to do the real leg work and battling, but he was still rather capable in the middle of the pitch, he was pretty impressive in his ability in cutting out passes by seeing and closing off passing lanes - mind you with nary the energy levels of a Makalele or Davids, but if it was within 5m of his lazy bum he had that shit locked down ;) . I have to disagree, in my view he did contribute to defense - he played almost like a more offensive minded Pirlo, main job being so far back was to play the ball out, and helping out to defend was second, in this regard he was slightly worse from a defensive standpoint.

It would be great if you find some vids of his freekicks, I know later on 1976+ he came into his own, but at this time I think Gadocha still overshadowed him.

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