But Oriello you are talking out of your ass again, as indeed he was playing the 1970's equivalent of the Pirlo role from Poland against England at Wembley, and this was due to team tactics of only playing to abosrob a rabid English side on the romp for goals galore as the Poles needed only a draw to secure qualifiaction. In anycase Oriello you clearly missed that while he was fielded exclusively as a CMF for Poland in 1974 he displayed excellent positional sense easily worthy of a 66 rating but considering comaritively a CMF/AMF hybird such as Lampard at 67 Defence currently you would be well within your frame of mind to give him a similar value as in reality though he may have put in a less labour intensive shift he was juast as capable of deciphering play and stopping it like Lampard is now a days. The classic Lampard being DEF 69 RES 90, and if Pirlo gets a 69-70 DEF - despite tackling more than Deyna (did he ever go to ground? ) his positional sense was not any 3-4(+) points better.Oriello wrote:list of changes
Defence -2 -- I based the original value more when he was played as a DMF/CMF(Pirlo'esque') against England at Wembley, he put in an honest shift for a guy being played out of his natural position, but I have no idea if he could do this regularily, and one of the issues with his faliure in Manchester City was beacuase they had no idea where to play him and he failed both as a typical centre forward and as holding player in the centre of the park. And one of the problems was his unwillingnes to tackle an opponent for the ball, he considered it to be ridiculous for him to go to ground to battle for a ball. ( Apparently fell in love with the idea of playing in England after the Wembley match, but he quickly regretted it as his style absolutely clashed like anti matter with what was excpected of him)
Oriello wrote:Balance +1
Yes from a textual point of view he may have been akin to Dobrin indeed, but Oriello once again your muddling with stats has had diastrous consequences. Top Speed is a difficult one, as he was perferred walker on the pitch, but I might have take into account the possible Summer heat of the WC, yet never-the-less his ability to almost 'charge' through midfield at oppurtune moments could only be possible with a 78 TS minmum, but he would do this at most once every three matches - and potentially why it was so effective as many players thoguht him to be naturally slow were wrong footed when he decided to change gears and were left in the dust.Oriello wrote:Top Speed -1 --these next sets of changes are more to replicate his dribbling more relistically, and of what I read I guess I would liken him to Dobrin, and this better suits that sort of walking with the ball -- strangely though he seemed to get faster when he had the ball. XD
Dribble Speed -5
Well I cannot deny *Passing to him on the basis of frequency, he did pull them off even if from his deeper role he would only playmake, and only when played as a AMF or when higher up during a match would he risk a threaded ball, but indeed he did have the eyes to spot the gaps (through the legs of Bennetti ) and deliver some really tantalizing balls - the only criticsim would be they were given with to much weight and had a similar result to Juves Diego form of going too far ahead of the strikers at times.Oriello wrote:Short Pass Accuracy +2 --Sort of debated whether to give him *Passing, which would have increased the quality of his passing, so a bit of offsetting, also in test matches I would pass from the centre to a fullback and the ball is too hard and goes out of play!! What the Fuc|<!! Do not remeber any retard pass like that, if he is capable of that on 87 then an increas was needed. And I was agaianst *Passing as it made him play ulike himslef too many killer balls, while Deyna was the ultimate regualtor of matches and involved others into build up, he could slice any defence but did not attempt it so frequntly as to warrent the star, but by quality of passing should have it.
Long Pass Speed +2 --floated orbs all over the place, but in PES were getting intercepted far too much needed, this is probably maximum as his long passes were in direct contrast to a Gerrard rocket that only Maradona could bring down.
Added Middle Shooting back due to frequency issue, curlers be damned he was no where as consistently willing to shoot wihtout it. Unless the P13Long ranger card is independent and does not dampen the curl of the shot.Oriello wrote:Shot Accuracy +1 --dropped the Middle Shooting star trying to offset that by a slight increase here, still warrented considering his finishing was rated on par with any quality forward.
Shot Power -1
Header back up +1, the best of the midfield in heading, also useful on defensive set pieces in clearing out the danger - I know those articles and reports of him disliking using his head to actually head the ball - but really he was very competent and good in this aspect.Oriello wrote:Header -1
Jump +8 -- really undervalued, despised heading the ball (apparently the head is only for thinking to him XD) but from what I seen he could rise well on set pieces and get good direction and power.
FK -1 86 I think sufficent for tat article basis, if not still overrated by maybe a point or two, I could see 84-85 here being good enough. Every set piece for Poland, upwards of 10 he would be there only to lay off the ball on the ground or do a dummy execution the fk takers were Gadocha>Gorgon>Kasperczak(deliveries)>Deyna not once shooting on goal.. from a stats point of view I kept asking WTH!? Was that a one off where I read on the article about the two different corners being aimed for? Was he unconfident in 1974 - like Del Piero refusing to take Penalties for Italy in EURO 2008 clearly a master but just not up for it? By the way Gadocha was exceptional on FKs on goal, close several times including woodwork against Argentina and DEU.Oriello wrote:Free Kick +7 --I never seen a free kick on goal by him (except that goal off a corner, but was that intentional?) hence why I was being conservative, but many sources insist that he was very capable, and that only Beckham rivals his ability to bend the ball. Still without actual footage I am reluctant to go silly, but the problem exists as I have found out that Polish league games were not recorded until the late 70's I think, so there is no video reference except for Internationals and some high profile European games (hopefully I will come across Legia-Milan 1973 matches (*fingers crossed*) where Deyna and Rivera both took turns in putting on masterclass displays, with Deyna supposedly scoring his greatest ever goal in the first leg some sort of remarkable volley) Yet never the less one written account stated how in a league game Deyna took an exquiste set piece into the top corner of the net, but the play was called back for some strange reason by the referre, yet on the resulting retake Deyna fooled the keeper who gambled on him aiming into the same corner, but Deyna shot around the bottom of the wall directly into the opposite bottom corner. So apparently he had a great command of aiming his efforts.
Mentality up to 75, -1 below the previous 76 since my last edit, I am taking into account the Summer heat and the general slow tempo of the games then, as looking across the board during the matches many ITA, DEU, BRA, players could be lower than their values indicate, EX Vogts not quite a 95+ in MEN in the DEU-POL game, and in the Wembley match he did give alot of effort - a bit of a headless chicken at times - but for the occasion a 78 was appropiate, well anyways on modern ladders Ibrahimovic and Balotelli though forwards exemplify a laziness that Deyna was not equal too, and would indeed haul ass when when danger was apparent EX twice against Braazil on set plays the defence failed to read the Brazilans clever set pieces and were caught cold only Deyna to come out of nowhere and clear in a last man manner, virtues ofResponse and Mnetality for myself.Oriello wrote:Mentality -6 --I think I was 'trapped' in a EPL zone(no offence or anything) when I rated this and failed to appreciate that some of thse players in the 70's really went about the midfield in a 'delicate' fashion, very unlike modern all-rounders who do everything, while Deyna's game was definately more 'fractured'/segmented, sort of forwards score, midfilders create, and defenders defend, none of this Kuijt rubbish of playing like a right back because I am bored up front.
Removed *Middle shooting --Finally his shots are real! He was able to shoot from distance, in fact he could shoot from nearly anywhere, but the star was crippling his ability to give his shots theri famed curl, now their all beaatuies.
SpongeBob wrote:An eternal idol for all of us communists.
I have!? I just adjust players to what I think they might correlate to ladders in the Serie A (as I am most familar with it) - I initally may have gone over board a year or so ago when the norms of big mods like S-J23 were more common, but I am just trying to keep in line with the general trend now-a-days of the site. The players all should ladder well in game to everyother player (current era included) to get good balance, at least I hope thats what happens - I do not want to make any Terminator PES players .SpongeBob wrote:Seeing you started with massive lowering of Polish players stats, I hope you'll skip this thread Oriello He's already underrated so please don't lower
Oriello wrote:but your an American cartoon!!!
SpongeBob wrote:Oriello wrote:but your an American cartoon!!!
I didn't know it's an American cartoon, I thought it's a German cartoon.
Actually my nick is an abbreviation for SpongeBob Schwammkopf, since I saw it few times on German TV , I thought it's their
SpongeBob wrote:And if you are a Polish could you please translate
that video with Legia player, man from museum and old bald man? I would like to know what are they saying about General.
SpongeBob wrote:Well I was wondering if Deyna could see small boost in his passing values?
It is possible both accounts could be true at the same time - returning from that child training session and a bit under the influence. But it does seem pretty sad to have been barred from making a fortune in his prime out in the West, then once he did get to England/America in his decline yet apparently still did manage to rake in a fortune (according to the video) then to lose it all - and fall on hard times (I think I read his wife left him too) so much so that he died relatively 'young'.SpongeBob wrote:I don't believe he was under alcohol in that moment, he was coming back from
children's training which he guided and I think it was still a morning.
It is true he rarely did miss a pass, though that could partly be owed to his regista role - similar to Pirlo at Milan, Deyna played in front of the defence (Yet way more box to box than stagnent Pirlo) and though he was the main dictator of what would happen on the pitch, much of it was like Pirlo does - with lateral passes, or an angled pass after a dribbling move (which would clear up opposition from interfering with a pass) to open play up. I just think that a player like Guti at SPA 90 has that more clear ability of being able to split a defence apart (through forests of legs) and give the easiest of set ups to others - for me a 90 represents a pass in which the setup is so accurate/wonderful that the recipents workload in scoring is cut in half, and an 89 approachs that level too close in view of Deyna for myself, his weighting in penetrating passes seemed off and away from any sort of mastery. Though I must concede to democracy again , and if anyone else thinks along the same lines as you do and believes a raise in SPA would reflect more accuratness then I will raise it accordingly. Like I wrote I have not seen that many matches of Deyna so he very well could have been a differnt beast for Legia or in other international matches, possibly ones you seen SpongeBob where he more obviously showcased passing above what I rated him here.SpongeBob wrote:I was thinking, could he have SPA 89 and SPS up by 1-2 points? As you said he wasn't Rui Costa but when I watched him (not as much as you) he
rarely missed a pass. And there should be some borders or levels in comparing old players with current ones. Player like Deyna DOESN'T EXIST
right now and will never exist anymore in the future. Deyna's brain was on another higher level than any other player's.
I was just comparing them two in SPA alone, not overall - I think Deyna's overshadowing Thiago in pretty much every other department does not diminish Deyna's image .SpongeBob wrote:It's an insult to compare Tiago or any other current player with Kaz. KAZIMIERZ DEYNA WAS ONE, UNIQUE AND THE BEST EVER MIDFIELD'S CONDUCTOR.
Oriello wrote:Stefan Szczelplek: This was a very (some word (uczliwy!?!?! WTF?)) person...
Blade_Runner wrote:There's been no new posts in this topic for quite some time, but maybe someone will answer I wonder why there is a major drop of technical abilities (especially technique itself) between those sets of stats. Large drops of speed or stamina over the years are understandable, but big drops of technical abilities are pretty uncommon.
blumbas wrote:This set is so bad. Deyna was one of the best player in his generation. Need higer pass stats and better technique too. Sorry for my English.
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