Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

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Best Independiente player ever?

YES, HE'S # 1
62
77%
TOP 3, BUT NOT # 1
16
20%
NOT EVEN CLOSE
3
4%
 
Total votes : 81

Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

Postby PES Stats Database » 2009 Sep 03, 19:56

Nickname: "El Bocha"
Club: Club Atlético Independiente



INFO:

Who said Maradona was alone in the 1986 World Cup? Terribly mistaken, Bochini was there. The 32 year old was the voice of experience, and by the way, Maradona's idol. The almost creepy resemblance in their game led to a sort of legacy from the Avellaneda's idol to a young 26 year old Maradona.

Bochini was devoted his whole career, and some might say his whole life (as he continues attached), to the club of his heart: Independiente.

He stayed there for 19 years, scoring near a 100 goals, and winning so many titles it would be an un-ending list, including a Inter-Continental Cup final against no other than Juventus (in this season: 1978) scoring the winning goal and becoming a legend between the Independiente's supporters, who still see him as one of the greatest Argentineans of all times.

Nowadays, whenever someone does a great, unbelievable pass a lot of Argentineans refer to them as a "bochinesque pass"; imagine the excentricity of this player's lobs and passes.

Well, to end, I'd like to add what Maradona said to him when he was subbed in the '86 WC: "Thanks 'Maestro', thanks for the football"

VIDEOS:



ADDITIONAL LINKS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bochini
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Enrique_Bochini

Last edited by Vickingo on 2013 Jul 30, 11:16, edited 29 times in total.
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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1977-1978

Postby ingus » 2012 Jun 24, 23:14

Yes, this pass against Olimpia is one moment, etc, but with SPS 76-77 you will never do the same pass in the game


Please test these things in game before you make such claims. I play with cassano in my ML as my AMF and he has greens for SPS and he reguarly makes 30 yard+ through balls right into players feet. Having low SPS doesn't mean you can't reach a target, it just means you reach it slower.


Also about SPS: why Iniesta has 90? Visually his SPS = Bochini's SPS, plus or menus few points.


If you ever seen any of iniestas deep passes you'd know why he needs such a high value.

Maybe your effort isn't bad, but if we will give this numbers to Bocha, he will be very underrated comparing with other players.


No he won't. He'll be one of the best players in the DB. Passes evolved over time, in the past most players didn't go for such high speeds and deep ground passes, that came over time. It's not something that was in bochichins game, so he doesn't need it "just because".


But this isn't write because Xavi plays simply and Maradona, Bocha etc always had trying to make very difficult "jugadas", and because of this missed a lot of passes.


Xavi plays simply most of the time. But he still pulls of crazy passes that are very, very diffuclt. Just look at the macth yesterday.. 20/30 yard through ball right into cescs feet, thats what xavi can do when he opts for a more diffuclt pass.

And when Xavi try something difficult, he missed a lot more than Bocha.


No he doesnt, and statistics are there to show you otherwise.


I agree with you, maybe I'm exaggerating him a bit, but like playmaker he was better than Maradona, so he has to have 96 min, because Maradona has SPA 95.


Sorry, but he was nothing compared to maradona in playmaking. The vids are right there for you to see, watch his.. then maradonas. Hes a great, great player, but Maradona supercedes him in every aspect of his game. Maradonas SPA will be tweaked to higher than 95, I am thinking of possible red too for bochini though.

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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1977-1978

Postby ingus » 2012 Jul 11, 03:28

Well, I watched what I could. I have major qualms with any value, any changes I'd suggest would only be cosmetic, and I'm not sure of them. So updated with your set. Great work btw, keep it up.

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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1977-1978

Postby Vickingo » 2012 Jul 11, 03:46

Nice, thanks. Emm, just a few things. This era represents 1983-1984 so it'd be nice if the thread could be moved there, I'm not 100% sure of his early years, I'm working more in his later years, even my pic is from 80's and current is in 70's (look his body :lol:). Been testing a while the set and I'm very satisfied, just a thing...his SPS could use a bit increase, I've been playing with 78, not too much difference but suits better. And SP, i'm more convinced with 73, again not too much difference but i feel now it was a bit underrated there. I'm really satisfied of how he moves, how much, his passing, his vision and his balance...all about it...looks pretty good for me, just those increases in sp/sps.

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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1977-1978

Postby ingus » 2012 Jul 11, 04:17

Well you have the first post, you can edit around the years and what not. I'll move it when you're done.

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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

Postby Vickingo » 2012 Jul 11, 04:32

Edited 1st post. So, rest these changes: Move to 1980's forum and in the editor. Increase SP to 73 and SPS to 78. Add this pic already uploaded to a server:
Spoiler: show
Image
. Thanks in advance ;)

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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

Postby lucashag » 2012 Jul 13, 02:12

age is wrong, he was 29 at that time

Jó without ronaldinho is as useless as larry flint's legs.
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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

Postby Dimon » 2012 Sep 11, 20:39

Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZjfN29H ... ure=relmfu you can find two examples that Bocha could strike strong when he wanted.

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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

Postby Vickingo » 2012 Sep 11, 20:49

Dimon wrote:Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZjfN29H ... ure=relmfu you can find two examples that Bocha could strike strong when he wanted.


You've already said it, when he wants. He almost never showed it.

Btw there are three missing changes, included a raise in his SP, jurgens can you update this?
vickingo_73 wrote:Edited 1st post. So, rest these changes: Move to 1980's forum and in the editor. Increase SP to 73 and SPS to 78. Add this pic already uploaded to a server:
Spoiler: show
Image
. Thanks in advance ;)


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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

Postby Dimon » 2012 Sep 11, 21:27

I just not agree with your number. To make this shot from center of the field or this strong shot from the side of the area to top corner you has to have SP 78. Bochini was capable of shoot strong, he only posted on accuracy. And in PES it's just impossible to replicate. However, I don't see him under greens in SP.

Also I don't understand why was deleted his best time's set. I have some (four) matches with him of that era, and I have to say that this set was quite accurate (except FK thing), only needed some tweaks (a bit less SPS, SP and a bit more TS, ACC, AGI and DA) and maybe some changes to new format (like little decrease in RES and TW).

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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

Postby Vickingo » 2012 Sep 11, 21:43

If we should rate players because of 1 or 2 times they show smth, then we'd have most of players with +80 in numbers. I mean, that number is to make Bocha most of times shot from inside the box or avoid long shots as he didn't make it.

He had imo two 'primes' with two different characteristics. Earlier is 1973-1978 aprox when he was faster and mostly a dribbler. And this set represents his classic. no 10 style for his later years, 1983-1984 (my favourite one). Which 4 matches? I could watch vs Gremio/Olimpia/Liverpool and Tachira in 1987 appart from one of Copa America in 1979 vs Brazil. I didn't get any complete match from the era you say you have 4 matches. Taking into account he didn't play Intercontinental Cup vs Ajax in 1972 and that's the only match I could get from 70's.

It was deleted cause was a mix of 70's and 80's and was completaly wrong. I mean, it's better to have an accurate set from an era and then, if we have the knowledge to make a good and accurate set for his early days (73'-78'), then there isn't anything wrong to have 2 sets. But I'd like to get and watch those 4 matches you have from 1973-1978 to try a set; but I looked for a lot and I didn't find them.

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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

Postby Dimon » 2012 Sep 13, 19:47

I have match with River (where he decided a match with two goals to Pato Fillol), with San Lorenzo, famous game with Talleres (draw which significant title win, with 8 man left on the field) - all from 77/78 season with The Greatest (for me) Pato Pastoriza on the coach bench. And one game with National team (against Germany, if I correct; where he also decide outcome of the game).

I downloaded all this games four or even five years ago, but if I'll find the links, I for sure send them to you.

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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

Postby Vickingo » 2012 Dec 06, 15:34

Dimon wrote:I have match with River (where he decided a match with two goals to Pato Fillol), with San Lorenzo, famous game with Talleres (draw which significant title win, with 8 man left on the field) - all from 77/78 season with The Greatest (for me) Pato Pastoriza on the coach bench. And one game with National team (against Germany, if I correct; where he also decide outcome of the game).

I downloaded all this games four or even five years ago, but if I'll find the links, I for sure send them to you.


Do you have those full matches? Waiting for watching them.

I found a really excellent article from Marca where is compared Bochini with Iniesta. I do recommend to read it (jurgens specially try to translate it ;))
http://www.marca.com/blogs/perarnau-221/2012/12/03/iniesta-el-futbolista-que-se-hizo-verbo.html

PS: There are two pending numbers to change if any can do it please.

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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

Postby Dimon » 2012 Dec 06, 19:13

I have them, mate. Sorry, but I'm really occupied on my job. When I'll have more free time, then I will deal with upload them to some file-exchange system.

BTW, combination of SP 70 and LPS 86 is one of the most ridiculous things I ever saw. I don't say that SP and LPS have some exact association, but the player who can do really long, fast and precise pass surely can strike with some hardness to the net. Who played football will understand me.

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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

Postby ingus » 2012 Dec 06, 21:16

can't update any classics atm with the editor change, they seem to get undone.

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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

Postby Vickingo » 2013 Feb 24, 16:29

Crazy talent in that final vs River, awesome match from him and from the whole team, in this era he was more a dribbler than a passer, despite not being my favourite from him, he was just insane.


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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

Postby Dimon » 2013 Feb 25, 23:28

Yeah, two great teams and Bocha decided this game tremendously.

BTW, here you can find few examples that he can shot a bit stronger than you suggested, some shots like 80-81. Yes, he usually doesn't used power, but I think 75-76 will be more correct for SP.




And I reviewed some games of this era (83-84) and I notice that SPS looks low just because many times his passes was for a partner who 5-10 meters away from him. But when he have to make low pass for the big distance, he was able to make it very strong, so I still think about 80-82 in SPS. And his long passes wasn't so strong, I think 84 is more correct for LPS.

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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

Postby Vickingo » 2013 Jul 30, 11:49

Well I found another match from him, a shame there's not so many cause he was incredible. I have to say i'm a little biased as he's Independiente's best player in the history and watching him more and more and in the circunstances he has done and showed all his abilities, it's even better. This match was in Copa Libertadores 1984 when Independiente won his last Cup till the moment and it was a great team really, full of talents and NT players like Giusti or Burruchaga.

Look the field, was a total mess, in the match commentators said it was -7° C and it has rained. I wanna say this cause it highlights the control of the ball from him and how good he looked even in those awful spaces.

I'm pretty sure his da/tech are reds, pretty evident btw and his long passing is red too. Rob has had reason about his pace on passing but his accuracy was just awesome as well as his vision. In this match he could do so much in grounded passes cause the conditions of the field, but still he was pretty good taking into account this. Imo he could get better spa as Dimon said but i'm impressed about his long passing, was strange cause it seems he made it without any effort...and they were really soft and lob balls but always to the target, just awesome.

Also his speed in this era didn't decline at all, specially his ds, he 'flied' when he had space to do it and off the ball i was wrong he has had decent speed...but his acceleration must be better, dunno how match but his explosive power/agility were just awesome...could both go up.

And i wanna highlight his physical abilities, he ran a lot in this match, going all around building up the play and all that stuff...probably he could get a better value in sta/tw...he was kinda lazy sometimes but it was really common in that era in playmakers.

Still i would like to make a set of him in 1978 and the other one in 1983-1984 but i wanna know other's opinions.

Here I made a summary of his actions:

Spoiler: show


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8zal3jcN2c&t=32 Awesome trap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8zal3jcN2c&t=44 1st touch Assist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8zal3jcN2c&t=67 Nice pass to open play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8zal3jcN2c&t=88 Nice cross
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8zal3jcN2c&t=97 Nice long pass despite the off-side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8zal3jcN2c&t=111 Accurate long pass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8zal3jcN2c&t=144 1st touch pass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8zal3jcN2c&t=185 Nice dribble and pass to the space
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8zal3jcN2c&t=199 Pass to the space (decent speed)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8zal3jcN2c&t=225 Crazy trap and dribble
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8zal3jcN2c&t=239 Look at this acceleration (aka explosive power?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8zal3jcN2c&t=272 Look how good his da is in small spaces
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8zal3jcN2c&t=282 Awesome ds and mainly da again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8zal3jcN2c&t=289 Good pass (assist to Burruchaga)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8zal3jcN2c&t=309 Despite losing the ball, look that agility and control of the ball
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8zal3jcN2c&t=318 Trap+awesome da to avoid marking+assist between defenders
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8zal3jcN2c&t=401 "Long" pass again

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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

Postby Vickingo » 2013 Oct 10, 02:00


Very late on his career, just found the 1st half and the whole match isn't available, not best teammates, awful pitch and not his best match...but please watch his class and his control on speed, is just awesome as well as his agility at that age...amazing.

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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

Postby distinguidosrx » 2013 Oct 10, 14:03

what do you think about the motion styles???

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Re: Ricardo BOCHINI l 1983-1984

Postby Vickingo » 2014 Feb 03, 12:06

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/jan/23/ricardo-bochini-argentina-legend-pausa
Amazing article describing his way of playing and with an interview included. He was such a legend, comments from users are pretty nice to read though. It was for his birthday the last month, he's 60 right now.

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