The difference between Attack and Agression?

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The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby ektos » 2009 Jul 04, 16:16

Can any one tell me what is the difference exactly between Attack and Agression?
Please discuss. ;)

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Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby DeFrenZ » 2009 Jul 04, 16:18

saying it poor:
attack is how much you're GOOD at attacking.
aggression is how MUCH you attack.

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Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby Tom » 2009 Jul 04, 16:21

Attack relates to the positional sense of the player, with a higher value indicating a greater ability within the area

Aggression relates to the frequency of which you attack.

The Attack stat also performs a function when in relation to Defence (although this applies only to midfielders) that affects the tendency of a player to go forward

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Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby ektos » 2009 Jul 04, 17:46

Thanks for both of you ..Nice explanations :D!
But..GoonerLover66..
GoonerLover66 wrote:The Attack stat also performs a function when in relation to Defence (although this applies only to midfielders) that affects the tendency of a player to go forward

Can u explain this point more?i didn't understand it well :?

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Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby Ulises » 2009 Jul 05, 04:51

ATK:

The attack player governs the player resistance against tackles. Players with higher values are much toughter against physical press and tackles against them.

Van Nistelrooy, Trezeguet, Luca Toni, are all strong players (defined as the high value of stability), but what really helps to hold the opponent players, its their value higher than 90 in attack. Combined with a high Shot Technique, and ideally, the special ability *Scoring, also improves the accuracy while shoting under preassure.


AGG:

Is the tendency of a player to go out of his assigned position, and move to forward positions.

Specially strikers with low aggresion will have less tendency to step into the box.


@Gooner: Can you explain what do you understand by "Positional Sense" without falling in a TW description?¿

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Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby Tom » 2009 Jul 05, 09:51

Ulises wrote:ATK:

The attack player governs the player resistance against tackles. Players with higher values are much toughter against physical press and tackles against them.

Van Nistelrooy, Trezeguet, Luca Toni, are all strong players (defined as the high value of stability), but what really helps to hold the opponent players, its their value higher than 90 in attack. Combined with a high Shot Technique, and ideally, the special ability *Scoring, also improves the accuracy while shoting under preassure.

........

@Gooner: Can you explain what do you understand by "Positional Sense" without falling in a TW description?¿


That definition is completely incorrect. The Attack stat governs the positional sense of a player with a higher value indicating that they are more adept in their "attacking intelligence". The definition you've supplied is incorrect, the Attack stat is no longer the all-encompassing attribute that it used to be.

If the Attack stat were to govern ball retention, then the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi would have the highest Attack values. That is not the case. Ball retention is a multi-factorial situation in PES. The Post Player ability, for example, makes a player hold on to the ball in order to bring others into play. The Tactical Dribble ability has, as one of it's effects, the effect of making a player think tactically on the ball in order to not lose it. And let's not forget the Dribble Accuracy, Dribble Speed and Technique stats ;)

And it does not affect shooting in that direct sense. A high Attack stat will only enable a player to get into a position where shooting will be more productive.

Shooting under pressure is governed by many stats, and your description ignores the effects of Shot Accuracy, Balance and Agility when it comes to shooting under pressure.

As for your other question:
Positional sense is a mental/technical ability that a player possesses that enables them to function better within their role on the pitch. A forward with "great positional sense" would be one that evades the attentions of his marker and slips into areas or "positions" within the opposition's box, by getting goal-side of his opposing marker, in order to increase the likelihood of him scoring a goal. However, the forward with "great positional sense" does this without being caught offside. Although we must realise that "great positional sense" means little when it is not combined with a sense of "great timing" as that also eliminates the odds of being caught offside and heightens the ability to evade the attentions of the opposing marker.
A defender with "great positional sense" is a defender who, using his tactical knowledge, gets into the right positions in order to eliminate and prevent goal-scoring opportunities.

But you are right, Ulises, in the sense that Team Work and Attack are linked. However, it has been shown that the Response stat and the Attack/Defence stat have a greater correlation and relation with each other. All the aforementioned attributes, however, are vital within every position in PES. ;)

@ektos: Within PES there exists an "Attack-Defence ratio" that is affected by the values that you give a player for Attack and Defence which regulates the attacking tendencies for a player. Basically, a player with a Defence > Attack would make a player more defensively inclined and therefore less likely to go forward and join the attack. A player with Defence < Attack would indicate that the player is attack-minded and therefore more likely to join the attack. If you make a player Attack = Defence then they'll go forward as often as they stay back. It's kind of like the political system; If you consider Attack as Left Wing, and Defence as Right Wing. So basically this:

High Attack-------------------------------------------Equal A/D---------------------------------------------High Defence

Makes a player act like this:

Attack Minded--------------------------------------Equal Minded------------------------------------------Defence Minded


However this "Attack-Defence ratio" is only truly noticeable amongst midfielders as Defenders & Goalkeepers will always have Defence > Attack and Forwards will always have Attack > Defence.

I hope this helps ;)

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Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby Ulises » 2009 Jul 05, 14:23

Goonerlover66 wrote:That definition is completely incorrect. The Attack stat governs the positional sense of a player with a higher value indicating that they are more adept in their "attacking intelligence". The definition you've supplied is incorrect, the Attack stat is no longer the all-encompassing attribute that it used to be.

If the Attack stat were to govern ball retention, then the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi would have the highest Attack values. That is not the case. Ball retention is a multi-factorial situation in PES. The Post Player ability, for example, makes a player hold on to the ball in order to bring others into play. The Tactical Dribble ability has, as one of it's effects, the effect of making a player think tactically on the ball in order to not lose it. And let's not forget the Dribble Accuracy, Dribble Speed and Technique stats

And it does not affect shooting in that direct sense. A high Attack stat will only enable a player to get into a position where shooting will be more productive.

Shooting under pressure is governed by many stats, and your description ignores the effects of Shot Accuracy, Balance and Agility when it comes to shooting under pressure.


I am very sorry but you are who is wrong... The thing i quoted is what Konami told us that ATK works in PES2009, or are you suggesting that the voice of Konami through the PES2009 Piggyback Oficial Guide is wrong?¿ Cause my quote is what LITTERALY the guide says... Affirm that is wrong is very hard...

i have been saying this in the last months, that ATK is missunderstood in this database... I know that if we accept that issue all the players are bad-rated...

About your explanation of "positional sense" i think that you fall in TW descripcion when you say "evade the attention of his mark"... Evade the attention of the marker is like saying that players are more able to recibe the ball... Wich is a TW issue.

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Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby Tom » 2009 Jul 05, 15:31

I see where the problem lies, you're reading the Piggyback guide to the T. Ulises, there are quite a lot of sentences in the Piggyback guide that are phrased incorrectly and thus draw a completely different interpretation.

We can tell by simply testing in game that the Attack stat relates to positional sense and not ball retention. If you test Cristiano Ronaldo with his current stats and then test him with an Attack stat of 97, you'll find no difference whatsoever in his ball control or ball retention or however you want to phrase. All you find is that he's a damn sight more lethal when it comes to set-piece situations and when meeting a cross, and that's all. Attack is not misunderstood at all, Piggyback have put in the wrong definition again (In the PES6 Piggyback Guide, they claimed that a higher Keeper Skills value makes a keeper throw the ball further :roll: ). I can guarantee that you'd get a similar response to the one I gave you if you asked the likes of Red_Phoenix or Re_arranged or Anis about the Attack stat. In-game testing simply proves the definition wrong, the fact that Owen loses possession of the ball often when dribbling (In a COM vs COM match) yet has an Attack of 90 is one of the many examples that prove Piggyback wrong. Ball retention is multi-factorial in PES, that's an unescapable fact.

And I'm also confused by something you've said. If you trust the voice of Konami via Piggyback, then why don't you trust Konami with their in-game descriptions and their default valuations?

Ulises, Team Work and Attack work together in the same way that Team Work and Response work together. But evading the attentions of your marker is not a Team Work thing, it is an Attack thing. But by escaping the attentions of your marker, you are able to get into a situation where Team Work is used.

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Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby Ulises » 2009 Jul 05, 22:31

The thing is that you probably are incorrectly phrasing your "positional sense" issue... And TW... And me or piggyback...

First thing; you ask me why i trust konami and piggyback explanations and i dont trust in konami stats?¿ (i see the porpouse) of this question... LOL) Simply, to make a detailed explanation of what every stat do, you only need to know about how the game engine works... And no doubt that the develepores know more than any other person about this... Even that you! But to know about the correct value of every stat of every single player you MUST see all the matches of every single player during the whole season, to make fair comparations, as we do here... And in this konami lacks cause this would be impossible for the developers... But not in their knowlegde about his game engine...

About that you are right and konami and piggyback not... In what edition are you testing this?¿ It must be in PES2009, and when i test this i get other results...

Particulary i tested in CR, and i feel that he plays diffrent (i removed *positioning to perform the tests, you should know why... well i removed *positioning from my OF time before cause he doesnt deserves it, but this is other thing). I left all the other stats the same...

With ATK: 97, i feel that he uses his body better to win the position, and this is particulary noticeable for example inside the box once he has recibed the ball turn his body and shot, also when he is getting a tought mark (both CBs) he wins the position to recibe a pass... This is the issue that allows strikers to win the position to better balanced players, as it is in real life... And a graphycal issue, you can see that he uses more his arms when he "fights" with an opponent.

With 97 TW: Mainly makes him to go better into the space, i meant that he takes avdantage of the spaces, an example are the well time runs, what everybody knows that is managed by TW. Also you can notice that he performs that little step to recibe the ball in better position. He is constantly moving between the two CBs

I recomend to you make your "tests" playing him as a DC, where the diffrence is more noticeable...

The thing is that you say that the piggyback description are wrong, and you base this on the argument that 3 years ago it had a bug... Tthis type of fallacy has an specific name: Argumentum ad Hominem.

And i told you that for example the description about DEF, is the same as its given in atack but the opposite, says more or less (if you are very interested i will translate for you or i send you the scan of this page in spanish) that higher DEF makes player to win the position better to the strickers, and give some values and examples... And the common sense suggest me that ATK is the opposite of DEF... So everything is wrong in piggyback!!! give my money back!!!

I will base my argument in that i am right and you are wrong in the Occam's razor principle.

If you don't what this is i will explain to you: It is apocryphally attributed to 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham. The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. When competing hypotheses are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selection of the hypothesis that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities while still sufficiently answering the question.

Well this is quoted by wikipedia, the principle says that when two hypotheses are against the one that is more simply with less postulates is probably the correct... And my explanation is the follow:

ATK: This stat governs the qualitie on how a player uses his body to win or hold the position, when the proper team is on the ball. Also improoves resistance to tackles.
DEF: The same as atack but when the proper team is NOT on the ball. And also improoves tackles.
BB: The strengh of a player, even when a striker wins the position by higher ATK, a stronger defense can outbalance the striker.
AGG: Manage the overall positioning, higher agg means that he has more tendecy to go to forward positions, positioning upper in the pitch.
TW: Governs the ability of a player to take advantage of the spaces that the opponent team leaves (well timed runs, more succes at recibing passes)
RES: This stat suits how fast the players react, noticeable in lost balls, defense that anticipates a opponet pass and cuts it.


Then you base your argument in vague, complicated and strange descriptions ("positional sense"), you mess up one stat with the other, and you introduce a lot of postulates... Not to talk about the issue that you affirm that the official explanation given by konami is wrong...

My description (not hypothesis cause there is an official source that confirms my hypothesis) explain all the issues that are necesary to describe the whole reality, and suite the behaviour of any player in the pitch.

Due to what occan's razor my explanation is simplier, have less postulates and explain all the posibilities. So my explanation will be the correct, even with my language handicap, if we were sciencists... But lunfortunatly we are not...

But anyway my simply explanation is not going to be taken into account, cause everybody thinks that you are GOD and omnipotent, and even if people or you agree with me, this will mean tha nearly all the striker in this databse are bad-rated and will represent a HARD work.

You are the best stat maker here but, you are absolutly wrong about this issue... Be more open minded (is this expresion corrects?¿)

Ulises
 

Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby Tom » 2009 Jul 06, 10:44

Ulises your arguement about Attack is simply incorrect. The reason why he's using physical strength to get past his man is because of his Balance value, not his Attack value.
The only thing you'll see with an increased Attack value is the player getting into positions where the odds of scoring a goal are high. However, if the player in question is being tested against a defender of high Defence (and therefore high defensive positional sense) and of a similar Balance (or higher) then of course Ronaldo will be jostling with the player, that's obvious! Because the player is trying to prevent Ronaldo getting into the position of which the player is occupying and is adopting his physical strength into the situation in order to block Ronaldo.

I've tested the Attack stat countless times in PES 2009 and there hasn't been any noticeable change within it's function in comparison to the past two Pro Evolution Soccer games. It still governs the attacking positional sense of a player, it doesn't improve ball retention at all.

I didn't say that everything in Piggyback is wrong. I said that the phrasing within their descriptions should be improved as they draw incorrect perceptions, based upon the syntax of their sentences, that create such arguements as the one we are having now.

And you have muddled your knowledge of the Team-Work stat. It doesn't govern the timing of runs or the positional sense of players, but it does play a part in situations where the two aforementioned things occur. And this is the one thing, judging from your last couple of posts, that you do not seem to understand; stats aren't linear. Certain footballing situations, in PES, are not affected by just one stat but by a multitude of stats. "Tackling", for instance, is affected by Defence, Balance, Response and Acceleration. "Free Kicks" are affected by Free Kick Accuracy, Curling, Shot Power and Shot Accuracy. "Heading" is affected by Header, Jump, Balance, Height and Weight. And the Team Work stat affects nye on everything because it is the only over-arching and all encompassing stat in PES. Team Work affects the understanding that a player has with his team-mates, so this therefore affects every footballing situation in PES. It does not mean that Team Work is the primary stat in every footballing situation, it just means that the Team Work stat is involved. Every situation, in PES and reality, has numerous variables that affect it. Nothing is affected by one sole factor.

And do not accuse me of simply presuming that something within PES is incorrect. I test every theory proposed to me. Red_Phoenix, a couple of months ago, stated that a higher Balance in a GK will make them perform more punches. I tested his theory and it was wholly incorrect as "performing more punches" was affected by Keeper Skills and that it was also dependent on the situation the keeper is involved with. I tested your arguements after you posted them, just to affirm my knowledge, and they were incorrect. I'd even posts videos that prove you wrong but I do not have a video card in my television.

What I find humourous is that your accusing me of closed-mindedness yet you're not willing to take on board anything that I've said at all.

As for being scientists, I've been accepted by 4 red brick universities within the "Russell Group" for their undergraduate Zoology courses which, as you'll know, is a pivotal biological science that also encompasses psychology and basic science theory. So actually......

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Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby Ulises » 2009 Jul 06, 11:52

Goonerlover66 wrote:Ulises your arguement about Attack is simply incorrect. The reason why he's using physical strength to get past his man is because of his Balance value, not his Attack value.


AGAIN i REPEAT to you that i am NO saying that stupid argument... ATK does NOT increase your BB, stop being DEMAGOGUERY!!!

Goonerlover66 wrote:Free Kicks" are affected by Free Kick Accuracy, Curling, Shot Power and Shot Accuracy


This is also wrong...

Goonerlover66 wrote:I've tested the Attack stat countless times in PES 2009 and there hasn't been any noticeable change within it's function in comparison to the past two Pro Evolution Soccer games. It still governs the attacking positional sense of a player, it doesn't improve ball retention at all


I can belive it cause i got other results...

Goonerlover66 wrote:And you have muddled your knowledge of the Team-Work stat. It doesn't govern the timing of runs or the positional sense of players, but it does play a part in situations where the two aforementioned things occur


TW is defined as the hability of a player in taking advantage of the the space. Players with high TW will make well time runs (combined with high aggresion... is obvious), they will be more likely to perform and recibe passes and interact with team mates, the will be in the right place at the right time, what could be called "Positional Sense"...

And piggyback is not wrong... you can find commentaries and explanation in the many diffrent pages that refers to the ATK definition. I agree that Piggback miss some issues... But not about ATK... You didn't accurately explained "Positional Sense", cause MY positional sense means Team Work:

"The ability of taking advantage when moving into the space. So player with high TW will perform more and better time runs (when combined with high aggresion), and will be more likely to recibe the ball in better position. Colloquialy, "being in the right place in the right time"

TW will work diffrent combined with a high AGG (strikers) or combined with a low AGG (midfielders). With high aggresion TW will make the player to perform more and better timed runs. With low aggresion the movements would be oriented in recibing the ball without evanding the press.


Mate you are explaining with the same description TW and ATK. But adding strange issues to the ATK explanation... And then you rate diffrent deppendin on the diffrent position of the player... You are explaining the same thing with two diffrent stats...

So i want you to explain detailed and without using that "high level" english (what doesn't make you more intelligent), cause i have problems to understand you, what does the stat "Atack" and "Team Work" do ingame, and of course your undefined "Positional Sense". Cause you are not explaining ANYTHING, you just defend yourself and acuse me to be wrong, ok, IF i am wrong what would be truth?¿

Ulises
 

Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby Tom » 2009 Jul 06, 12:18

Okay, I'm going to everyone of your paragraphs directly to avoid confusion

Answer to first paragraph: I never said that you were suggesting that Attack increases Balance. But you did say
Ulises wrote:ATK:This stat governs the qualitie on how a player uses his body to win or hold the position

And I said that was incorrect because that description describes Balance and not Attack.

Answer to second paragraph: Free Kicks are affected by Free Kick Accuracy, Curling, Shot Power and Shot Accuracy. The latter has a minimal effect on Free Kicks but it still has an effect as Free Kicks are a type of shot. Ask any top stat maker about it, they'll tell you that Shot Accuracy does have an effect on free kicks

Answer to third paragraph: Well then you are possibly one of the very few who believes that Attack does affect ball retention. It doesn't and countless stats-editors will tell you that. But it appears that I have no way of convincing you, so I'll simply repeat what I said earlier about what effects ball retention:
GoonerLover66 wrote:Ball retention is a multi-factorial situation in PES. The Post Player ability, for example, makes a player hold on to the ball in order to bring others into play. The Tactical Dribble ability has, as one of it's effects, the effect of making a player think tactically on the ball in order to not lose it. And let's not forget the Dribble Accuracy, Dribble Speed and Technique stats


Answer to fourth paragraph: You've ignored my entire paragraph explaining multi-factorial stats. Team Work is involved with all those things, but it is not the primary stat that affects such things as "Positional Sense" and "Well-timed runs". The primary function of Team Work is how well a player interacts and understands his team-mates. This means that any footballing situation that involves interaction, in PES, requires Team Work. As I've said repeatedly, this is true but it does not mean that it directly affects positional sense and the timing of runs. It indirectly affects them.

I did accurately explain "Positional Sense", but it is difficult to understand as it's a difficult topic. So again, I shall repeat what I said earlier:
GoonerLover66 wrote:Positional sense is a mental/technical ability that a player possesses that enables them to function better within their role on the pitch. A forward with "great positional sense" would be one that evades the attentions of his marker and slips into areas or "positions" within the opposition's box, by getting goal-side of his opposing marker, in order to increase the likelihood of him scoring a goal. However, the forward with "great positional sense" does this without being caught offside. Although we must realise that "great positional sense" means little when it is not combined with a sense of "great timing" as that also eliminates the odds of being caught offside and heightens the ability to evade the attentions of the opposing marker.
A defender with "great positional sense" is a defender who, using his tactical knowledge, gets into the right positions in order to eliminate and prevent goal-scoring opportunities.


Answer to fifth paragraph: I haven't explained the same thing for two different stats. Look at the definitions, they are completely different. But as I've said countlessly throughout the thread, the two stats are linked and work in cohesion with one another. The definitions are in my answer to your fourth paragraph.

Again, I have defined "Positional Sense", read my second quotation. And of course I'm defending myself: You've put forward an arguement and have accused me of being completely incorrect in my understanding of the stat whilst phrasing your posts in an aggressive tone. I have given you definitions for everything and yet you repeatedly ask me to define the things I have already defined.

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Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby Indy_Bones » 2009 Jul 06, 12:22

Ulises wrote:So i want you to explain detailed and without using that "high level" english (what doesn't make you more intelligent), cause i have problems to understand you,
I'm going to have to defend GL here and actually state that it's far harder to understand you than it is him.

As for talking about "high level" english:
A) It's CORRECT english,
B) How can you complain about it, then use totally overcomplicated choices yourself? E.g. -
AGAIN i REPEAT to you that i am NO saying that stupid argument... ATK does NOT increase your BB, stop being DEMAGOGUERY!!!


I've never, ever used Demagoguery in conversation, and I've studied Classics at A Level standard, and went to University also. I also don't know anyone else who's ever used it either, and I certainly don't hang around with a bunch of ill-educated morons either.

Rather than arguing between yourselves, can we just get other members to test both 'theories' to see which definitions are actually correct (I have my own suspicions as to which it will be...).

In fact, if I get time this week, I'll do a test as well.

Until then, can this unnecessary bickering be brought to a temporary ceasefire?

Regards

Indy.

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Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby Ulises » 2009 Jul 06, 13:04

Indy_Bones wrote:
Ulises wrote:So i want you to explain detailed and without using that "high level" english (what doesn't make you more intelligent), cause i have problems to understand you,
I'm going to have to defend GL here and actually state that it's far harder to understand you than it is him.

As for talking about "high level" english:
A) It's CORRECT english,
B) How can you complain about it, then use totally overcomplicated choices yourself? E.g. -
AGAIN i REPEAT to you that i am NO saying that stupid argument... ATK does NOT increase your BB, stop being DEMAGOGUERY!!!


English is not my mother language, i am spanish and i have a HUGE lack about understandig and explaining in english thats why i ask him to use simple words... But mate gooner is very able to defend himself...


@Gooner: Ok then we have diffrent ideas, imo you are messing up ATK with TW. And my explanation of ATK doesn't include a directly "Ball retention" improovement by the ATK stat... Yes ATK buffs the ball retention is some concret situations.

Its simply ATK is how a player uses his body to win position. And i explain this with a simply example... We can see in real life Messi, who is a weak player, winning position and chalenging with MUCH more stronger players (higher BB) and win the position. How can you explain this with your theory?¿


My explanation is much more simplier, with less issues... You know occan's razor...

Ulises
 

Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby Tom » 2009 Jul 06, 13:23

English isn't my native language either, although emigrating to England has helped greatly :D I can't help using some of the words that I use, you cannot explain things like "Positional Sense" in simple English and make it coherent as it requires a lot of technical language (In the same way that Chemistry uses words like enthalpy and nomenclature).

The only reason that I continue to mention "ball retention" is because you originally used that exact phrase when describing the Attack stat and you've built upon that arguement since.

Challenging a player is a completely different kettle of fish. A player with the Dribbling star will run when in possession of the ball and will "challenge" his opponent in order to beat (Was going to say surpass) him. As for Messi, well, you have to consider how pacy and agile he is. By having high Top Speed, Acceleration and Agility stats he has the attributes needed to blitz past an opponent (Let's not forget that a player running at top Speed can run with greater strength than a player standing still, it's the very reason why someone like Kenwyne Jones can outmuscle Sol Campbell despite having a lower Balance and being of a similar Height & Weight). Moreover, his high DA will enable him to keep close control on the ball even when he is in a "tight" situation.

Yes I do know about Occam's Razor. But let's not forget that the majority of simple explanations also tend to be incorrect, just look at theology and homeopathy ;)

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Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby Ulises » 2009 Jul 06, 14:18

First say that you can not explain my issue of "using body to win position" by any of the special habilities like *dribbling, *tac dribbling, Those stars manage the behaviour or the tendendy of a players to dribble or not, but doesn't have any influence on the abilitie of hold or win position, neither *post player, wich buff DIRECTLY the ball retention (yes here, YES!), and the behaviour tendecy of tracking back to recibe the ball (this star is to make strikers with high aggresion and low TW to track back, as for example RVN...)

You anwer doesnt anwer (is hard not be redundat when you lack english) my question. You explain that Messi wins the position to better balanced players (higher BB, height, and weight), because he has higher, TS, ACC and Agility, (Agility is described as the speed of the corporal movements), and your forgoten about RES... but when you are holding the position to recibe a pass, or you hold the position to perform as shot, etc... TS, ACC and Agility has NO influece, cause you are not running or accelerating, or making any quick corporal movement, no incluence of any of those stats...

The thing is that i see that ATK and DEF has a huge impact in BB, and therefore in ball retention, YES! But does NO directly and only manage this, as you say about me, cause obviously BB is the main stat that works in this. Another example, Robben is obviously stronger than Messi in real life, and both moves in the same "dribbling values". But the diffrence cames, i how messi protects the ball or the position, he uses better his weaker body, he takes advantage by POSITIONING better his body (i can accept to call this positional sense, but positional sense about the position of his body not in the pitch...). Messi will get easier outbalanced but he is more able to win physical struggles. YES! its hard to explain when you have not a "high level" english... Agree with you

The same in defense... Cannavaro low BB/heigh/weight and he won the position to extremly better balanced players (higher BB/height/weight) and faster players... not outbalancing them (make them falling to the ground or desequilibrating) he just won the position using his weaker and less balanced body.

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Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby Tom » 2009 Jul 06, 14:31

Ulises wrote:First say that you can not explain my issue of "using body to win position" by any of the special habilities like *dribbling, *tac dribbling, Those stars manage the behaviour or the tendendy of a players to dribble or not, but doesn't have any influence on the abilitie of hold or win position, neither *post player, wich buff DIRECTLY the ball retention (yes here, YES!), and the behaviour tendecy of tracking back to recibe the ball (this star is to make strikers with high aggresion and low TW to track back, as for example RVN...)

You anwer doesnt anwer (is hard not be redundat when you lack english) my question. You explain that Messi wins the position to better balanced players (higher BB, height, and weight), because he has higher, TS, ACC and Agility, (Agility is described as the speed of the corporal movements), and your forgoten about RES... but when you are holding the position to recibe a pass, or you hold the position to perform as shot, etc... TS, ACC and Agility has NO influece, cause you are not running or accelerating, or making any quick corporal movement, no incluence of any of those stats...

The thing is that i see that ATK and DEF has a huge impact in BB, and therefore in ball retention, YES! But does NO directly and only manage this, as you say about me, cause obviously BB is the main stat that works in this. Another example, Robben is obviously stronger than Messi in real life, and both moves in the same "dribbling values". But the diffrence cames, i how messi protects the ball or the position, he uses better his weaker body, he takes advantage by POSITIONING better his body (i can accept to call this positional sense, but positional sense about the position of his body not in the pitch...). YES! its hard to explain when you have not a "high level" english... Agree with you

The same in defense... Cannavaro low BB/heigh/weight and he won the position to extremly better balanced players (higher BB/height/weight) and faster players... not outbalancing them (make them falling to the ground or desequilibrating) he just won the position using his weaker and less balanced body.


You originally said "chalenging with MUCH more stronger players", which means that the player is taking on his opponent to get past him. But from your post your now implying that you meant "using body to win position". I'd like to point out that "Challenging a player" is completely different to "using your body to win position". Your use of English is creating miscommunication here, Ulises. My entire last post is completely redundant because you used the wrong phrase.

Secondly, your talking about the definition of "Positional sense" in a completely different subject area!
In Biology, "Positional Sense" is the knowing of where your body parts are.
In terms of football, "Positional sense" is a mental/technical ability that a player uses to get into the right positions.
So again, we have miscommunication.

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Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby Ulises » 2009 Jul 06, 23:24

Ok my english lack is welknow... And even more noticeable when i try to give a detailed explanation, all the miscomunication is by my fault, but give you very thanks for being compresive about this... No as many people here... I am also glad to see that someone here has enough intelligece and stats knowledge (being wrong or right) to have serious discussion, and not the ones based on subjetives points of view, and i apologize about you if i was very rude...

Coming back to stats

That was exactly the definition i wanted by you:

Goonerlover66 wrote:In terms of football, "Positional sense" is a mental/technical ability that a player uses to get into the right positions.


Due to your explanation fabregas who who is a player that has a the ability of being always in the right positions to recibe the ball, will deserve a very high value in atk, doesnt him?¿

And i say the following...

Player with high atack will use their body better to win and hold the position. And as higher atack is a player has better resistance against physical pression. And improve the resistance against tackles


This doesnt mean any BB increase, NO. Better balanced player will still outbalance weaker players. But players with high atack will last more time on foot before geting outbalanced by an opponent so they will hold position better. Wich is VERY important inside the box. And this does NOT mean any DIRECTLY dribbling ability increase.

And also remember what you said:

Goonerlover66 wrote:The Attack stat also performs a function when in relation to Defence (although this applies only to midfielders) that affects the tendency of a player to go forward


I can not find any evidence of this ingame, probably in previous editions, but not PES2009, i tried the current fabregas with ATK: 99, and i didn't found him that he goes forward deliberately, rather than this i found that he can hold the position more time before he gets outbalanced or desequilibrated. So he has more time to chose the right decision before the opponet steal the ball or outbalance him. He was NOT allowed to dribble past opponents better or faster.



OFFTOPIC: I forget to answer you about the theology and homeonathy, and the realtion with occan's razor... Occan's razor is only applycable in equal circunstances and ALWAYS when the postulates are not falacys. Occan's razor is not applycable in the case of theology and homeopathy cause the postulates in thos cases are HUGE falacys... Specially theology... I can tell you the exactly what the name of this falacys are, but i have to look up it in my old class notes, cause i don't remember... i am not tha freak...

Last edited by Ulises on 2009 Jul 07, 04:19, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby DeFrenZ » 2009 Jul 06, 23:31

speedy translation of ulises:
body contest is not BB vs BB but BB+ATK(ball holder) vs BB+DEF

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Re: The difference between Attack and Agression?

Postby Ulises » 2009 Jul 06, 23:54

DeFrenZ wrote:speedy translation of ulises:
body contest is not BB vs BB but BB+ATK(ball holder) vs BB+DEF


That was exactly the idea i wanted to avoid!!!

In my tests fabregas (ATK: 99) got overmuscled as easy, as with his actual value in ATK in this DB, so when i tried to dribble past opponents with him i he lost the ball by physcal strenght... But he lasted on foot more time than before geting outbalanced or stolen his ball, and he was more able to recibe passes under the tought physical pression of the two CBs (don mess up with TW). He standed on foot after tackles against him.

I played against Manchester with fabregas in Real Madrid. I noticed between more things that he hold the first physical chargue of Ferdinand (what more time while playing to pass the ball or try to evade the physicall chalenge if you think your player will lose that chalenge) but finally Ferdinand won the position and the ball by physical power.

But don't go by wrong ways, the description i give for ATK, is that a players with high atack will use his body to get a positional advantage when involved in physical chalege, this menas allows player to recibe the inside the box under press, giving more chance of succes inside the box where pression is toughter.

A good example how this issue describes real life, is Villa. He is a little boy and he doesn't look stronger (he doesnt got big muscles), but he can win position a very very stronger players. And agility is not involved in this, agility allows him to evade the chalenge not to win it wich is very diffrent.

Now i am going to make other test, ronaldo with the lowest ATK value, cause probably i am influenced.

Last edited by Ulises on 2009 Jul 07, 02:31, edited 2 times in total.
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