2017 Player Format

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2017 Player Format

Postby Raster » 2016 Sep 27, 19:08

As you have probably noticed, we launched the 2017 Player Format just in time for the game release, if you did not have the chance to take a look you can do so here.

The new format was also added to the Default Format switcher that we have available at the top of every page.

Also, as always, the buttons for the old formats are still in place so you can enjoy the stats in whatever flavor of the game you prefer more.

What do you guys think of the format or PES 2017 in general ?
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby Zereth666 » 2016 Dec 20, 21:00

i have tried everything i could but couldn't find the right formula to convert "body balance" into "Body control or physical contact" .. someone please post the right formula because many of us need to convert the old stats into new, including classic players ..
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby R9style » 2016 Dec 28, 17:00

420 wrote:Im pretty sure Exp power is ACC, body control is AGI and phisical contact is BB

I have the same feeling. In this game, I see some players with hight body control (agility ??) and less explosiv power (accélération ?) like iniesta, modric, David silva, xavi and others but i m not sure 100 pourcent.

About dribblin and passing skills i have some propositions guys :

For dribbling, i dont use only driblling accuracy, i use the combinaison of DA and DS because i find some anomaly between some players. For exemple verraty with 98 (i agree ) dribbling is not generaly better than messi (97).
the combinaison is : (DA+DA+DS/2), Same for Low pass (LPA+LPA+LPS/2) and lofted pass.

With this combinaison, messi have 96 dribbing and verrati 91, neymar 89, hazard 93, isco 92, marcelo 87, ben arga 94, robben 92, dembele 86, james rodriguez 91, coutinho 90, mahrez 88. I feel IMO more realistec dribbling with this combinaison.
About low pass and lofted pass : messi 91-89, iniesta 95-88, bale 78-86, debruyne 89-89, xabi alonso 95-96. (sorry for my engish)

I see some realistic players overrating with this combinaison :

Messi 96
Ronaldo 94
suarez 92
aguero 91
neymar 91
sergio ramos 91
aexis sanchez 90
iniesta 90
lewandowski 90
Zlatan 90
thiago silva 90
griezmann 90
modric 89
hazard 89
pogba 89
higuain 89
dybala 87
coutinho 87
verraty 88
debruyne 88
reus 88
di maria 88
benzema 87
cavani 88
marhez 85

What do you think guys ?
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby vialli82 » 2017 Mar 04, 11:59

That's a fact that in PES 2017, Dribbling is no more "Dribbling Accuracy" but have a real impact on player speed with the ball too.
About Agility = Balance, i've said that's a bit confusing:

That attributes refletes both agility and real the real "balance", very usefull for lightweight players.

What is needed is to looks about players in different situation. For example wath this attributes influence with a player in movement, when there's a contact, etc.
For me it's a mix between "resistance" and "agility", but you must see it as a brand new attribute.

Also, i've observed a thing about "Physical Contact" and "Jumping", and why Physical Contact can influes on aerial duels:

-When the ball in is in the air at the reception and there's 2 players struggling for the reception, P.C. will block the other player for jumping.
I've tried with Falçao, and he is only good at Heading when he doesn't have any opposition... But when there's another players on the contact, He was blocked most of the time for deploy his high jumping ability.
Perhaps even "Ball Winning" influes on this....

Btw there's many stats which are related (for example to keep the ball: Balance, Dribbiling, Physical Contact, Ball control)

To run straight with the ball, normal run R1 + a direction (Speed, Expl, Dribbling, even Ball Control but not that much)

And there a variance while the player run with taping R1 pushing the ball far : Ball control have bigger influence than in a normal run when he needs to reconduct the ball after pushing the ball far: you can see that if he's got a bad Ball Control, that will slow down the player after every control because pushing the ball makes the control more difficult.

Mecanisms in a footy game are truly complex, even with not so many stats, all related in certain area. That's a standard which also influes in older PES, there was more attributes ok, but they were less related between each others (excpetion with Teamwork/Mental/Att/Def) that's why the attributes was more "palpable".
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby ballmer » 2017 Mar 13, 12:00

I'm trying to understand what's going on with Explosive Power and Body Control... I initially thought I agreed with the posts above - namely that explosive power was now acceleration, and body control was agility. But in truth I'm just really confused.

Here's the top rated players in PES 2017 for BODY CONTROL - supposedly agility:

Spoiler: show

If we're considering body control as agility, some of these look out of place, but okay, let's go with it...

Here's the lowest BODY CONTROL ratings (for players overall rated 80+, to avoid random unknown players):

Spoiler: show

Oscar? Gervinho? Walker? In the low 60s? Hmm...

Now, here's the highest rated players for EXPLOSIVE POWER - supposedly acceleration:

Spoiler: show

This looks pretty convincing to me. It's particular encouraging to see speed-demon types here - Aubameyang, Bellerin, Walcott.

Here's the lowest EXPLOSIVE POWER ratings (again, players with overall ratings of 80+):

Spoiler: show

Some lumbering centre back types are rightly here.

So, I don't know. It's difficult because Konami notoriously over and underrate players all the time. Is there enough to go on here to assume that body control is agility, and explosive power is acceleration?

One further issue... Someone above suggested that in PES 2017, dribble accuracy is better represented by incorporating dribble speed. And viewing it this way does explain some of Konami's given values. Speedy dribblers seem to be rated higher than slow, possession-retention style dribblers. And this is accounted for and consistent if we combine DA/DS values. However, I believe SPEED in 2017 - and since DS was removed in 2014 - is in fact a combination of TOP SPEED and DRIBBLE SPEED.

(Konami amalgamate abilities all the time and it's fucking annoying. Defensive prowess is some combination of responsiveness and positioning. Attacking prowess is some combination of responsiveness and attacking danger. Explosive power has been some combination of agility and acceleration in the past. A player's speed is not the same thing as their ability to maintain speed when dribbling. Likewise for all these things.)

Anyway... PES 2013 was the last game with DRIBBLE SPEED as a stat. Konami seem to take 2 games to implement new stats properly. For instance, ball winning in its first appearance was formulaic, if I remember correctly. It was some calculation involving body balance and defence. In its second appearance, it was no longer formulaic and seemed more accurately to represent a player's tackling.

So, it's my belief that Konami took until 2015 to properly account for the removal of DRIBBLE SPEED by combining this with TOP SPEED/SPEED.

Spoiler: show

Neymar - Hazard - Messi - RIbery - Ronaldo - Robben - Valencia

For several years, Konami gave Messi a TOP SPEED in the low-yellows, and a DRIBBLE SPEED in the reds. In PES 2014, they ditched dribble speed. Messi's TS remained 82. In 2015, I guess, they merged the two stats, and suddenly Messi's SPEED jumps way up. His speed rating is now pretty much the average of his 2013 TOP SPEED and DRIBBLE SPEED.

In 2013, Neymar has TS 83, DS 94. Within 2 years, his DS jumps way up. In 2013, Ronaldo, has TS 87, DS 97. Within 2 years, his TS jumps way up. Likewise with several other players.

Valencia, is the inverse. In 2013, he has high TS - 92 - and low DS - 84. They average out at 88. Within 2 years, his TS? 88 in 2014, 89 in 2015. From 2013 - 2015, all these players who had a higher DS than TS, increased their TS. Valencia, with a lower DS, from 2013 - 2015 had a lower TS. In other words, speed values were adjusted in the direction of their DS. Messi had TS 82 every single year from PES 2011 through to PES 2014. PES 15/16/17 - his TS values were 92, 86, and 91.

This is stupid, of course. Because there's players who are slow, but maintain all of that speed on the ball. There are also players who are rapid, but lose that speed on the ball. This is a failure on Konami's part. By removing this distinction, they limit the realism of the game. But it does seem that this is what they're doing. I do wonder if we should consider this in rating SPEED in 2017. At any rate, I think this deserves some discussion and consideration.
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby vialli82 » 2017 Mar 14, 05:52

I agree about speed = Mix of Dribble Speed + Max. Speed.
But i also think that players should have differents "formulas" regarding to his playing style and which position he plays:
For example for a CB, who's doesn't run often with the ball, the "Speed + Dribble Speed" shouldn"t be a good formula regarding his playing style. I think that's the way Konami wanted to take: from their playing style, behaviour and positionning, players will be rated differently with differents combinations, if you know what i mean.

"Kicking power" as an example is related to long shots, but also to long passes. For a CB who never shots on goal, it will be associated with lofted passes + cards in their formula as an example. Ball control can be associated with many things too, Ball reception, passes or shoots without control etc.
I personnally think that what they want to do about "simplifying" attributes by reducing their number but adding many "special moves" much more than before, make all of it more complicated in fact... Because everything seems connected, even if the effectiveness will be different from one tactic/position to another.

They should double the attributes to rate, make more simple standards, and i'm personnally not against a come back to a 1-20 scale.
Making stats like in FM, easy to rate, but with more physical/technical attributes and diffrents mental attributes/more related to a classic football game than a managing game.
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby ballmer » 2017 Mar 14, 12:18

Teamwork, acceleration, short pass speed, long pass speed, response, aggression, mentality, consistency, shot technique...

All removed by Konami. There are players defined by their standout values for each of these, yet Konami remove them. Imagine Xavi without his teamwork, Kaka without his acceleration, Gerrard with his short pass speed, Alonso without his long pass speed, Hernandez without his response, Inzaghi without his aggression, Gattusso without his mentality... You get the point. That's the compromised reality Konami give us.

Anyway, yeah, this is a bit of an indulgent moan about Konami. We should really be discussing how to understand what Konami have given us, and how to most accurately represent reality within the confines of the stats system they use.

I think attacking prowess, defensive prowess, body control, explosive power, speed all warrant some degree of discussion to understand.
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby vialli82 » 2017 Mar 15, 23:27

Acceleration is now "Explosive Power" (which is not really agility if you see IG, there is also new card to replace offensive agressivity like "Track Back", there is particular roles like "Goal Poacher" "Dummy Runner" which influe not in a stats way but in the behavior
Now Shot technique are gone but there's differents cards like "First time Shot" or "Accrobatic Finishing", there's different type of passes with "Low Lofted pass" or "Pintpoint passing". Even "Acrobatic Clear" for defender.

In fact there's many possiblity to represent accuratly a player, but we all prefer to have more numbers and less special moves in some area like shooting.
Not a binary scale with cards which gonna decide if the player is good (1) or basic (0) in certain area.
They tried to make all things more easy to rate, differently, aswell as the current engine manage many things by itsleve that the old engine couldn't accomplish, everything was a bit "too much" related on stats and stats only, not real physics in fact...

Konami could add some new attributes and parameters to the current engine without problem, but the fact is that there's "no need" for some olders stats now for the game to work properly. When i say "no need", i talk about programming only, not player representation don't misunderstand me:
For example before the old engine couldn't do maths by itselve to create the "Dribbling Speed" of the player, so everything was separated by obligation, if you know what i mean. The physical engine was pratically the stats and stats only.

Now the engine have his own "limits" and calculation, they re-created a physical world, and attributes are combinated to the physical reality of that world.
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby Ocrin » 2017 Mar 16, 00:21

I did testing with a high-speed player (Bale), with explosive power at 40 and 99 and it's definitely acceleration indeed.

I see what Konami tried to do here, and while it's not all bad, their main problem is that their explainations are shady as fuck. Players don't have a clue how it works because nothing about that stats/physics system is properly explained by them. The new engine has some good things, even though I'd prefer numbers I agree with you on the physicality of the game, which is a nice thing.
However, it limits us when we try to replicate specific types of players. For example, there are players who are great dribblers, who aren't that fast on the ball. We can't replicate that properly.

I now wonder how agility is calculated. i have yet to test body control (the description is way, way too far from the description of agility), but if it's not BC, I wouldn't be surprised if that's some kind of formula involving height, weight and explosive power. From what I've seen so far I'm pretty sure height and weight are involved. But still, it may just be an impression and deserves deeper testing.

Quick edit: I did further testing with Body control and while there's a slight change in agility (at least, it seems there is), I do not think it is agility as whole. The difference between 40 & 99 BC in terms of agility is way too little. That confirms what the game says and what I thought: BC is indeed actual balance, and how "elusive" is a player regarding to tackles. A player with high BC is more likely to evade tackles and stay on his feet after physical confrontations.
Agility is certainly calculated with a formula involving EP and BC, but so far it seems like it doesn't exist as a stat.

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