2017 Player Format

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Raster
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2017 Player Format

Postby Raster » 2016 Sep 27, 19:08

As you have probably noticed, we launched the 2017 Player Format just in time for the game release, if you did not have the chance to take a look you can do so here.

The new format was also added to the Default Format switcher that we have available at the top of every page.

Also, as always, the buttons for the old formats are still in place so you can enjoy the stats in whatever flavor of the game you prefer more.


What do you guys think of the format or PES 2017 in general ?

Zereth666
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby Zereth666 » 2016 Dec 20, 21:00

i have tried everything i could but couldn't find the right formula to convert "body balance" into "Body control or physical contact" .. someone please post the right formula because many of us need to convert the old stats into new, including classic players ..
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby R9style » 2016 Dec 28, 17:00

420 wrote:Im pretty sure Exp power is ACC, body control is AGI and phisical contact is BB


I have the same feeling. In this game, I see some players with hight body control (agility ??) and less explosiv power (accélération ?) like iniesta, modric, David silva, xavi and others but i m not sure 100 pourcent.

About dribblin and passing skills i have some propositions guys :

For dribbling, i dont use only driblling accuracy, i use the combinaison of DA and DS because i find some anomaly between some players. For exemple verraty with 98 (i agree ) dribbling is not generaly better than messi (97).
the combinaison is : (DA+DA+DS/2), Same for Low pass (LPA+LPA+LPS/2) and lofted pass.

With this combinaison, messi have 96 dribbing and verrati 91, neymar 89, hazard 93, isco 92, marcelo 87, ben arga 94, robben 92, dembele 86, james rodriguez 91, coutinho 90, mahrez 88. I feel IMO more realistec dribbling with this combinaison.
About low pass and lofted pass : messi 91-89, iniesta 95-88, bale 78-86, debruyne 89-89, xabi alonso 95-96. (sorry for my engish)

I see some realistic players overrating with this combinaison :

Messi 96
Ronaldo 94
suarez 92
aguero 91
neymar 91
sergio ramos 91
aexis sanchez 90
iniesta 90
lewandowski 90
Zlatan 90
thiago silva 90
griezmann 90
modric 89
hazard 89
pogba 89
higuain 89
dybala 87
coutinho 87
verraty 88
debruyne 88
reus 88
di maria 88
benzema 87
cavani 88
marhez 85

What do you think guys ?
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby vialli82 » 2017 Mar 04, 11:59

That's a fact that in PES 2017, Dribbling is no more "Dribbling Accuracy" but have a real impact on player speed with the ball too.
About Agility = Balance, i've said that's a bit confusing:

That attributes refletes both agility and real the real "balance", very usefull for lightweight players.

What is needed is to looks about players in different situation. For example wath this attributes influence with a player in movement, when there's a contact, etc.
For me it's a mix between "resistance" and "agility", but you must see it as a brand new attribute.

Also, i've observed a thing about "Physical Contact" and "Jumping", and why Physical Contact can influes on aerial duels:

-When the ball in is in the air at the reception and there's 2 players struggling for the reception, P.C. will block the other player for jumping.
I've tried with Falçao, and he is only good at Heading when he doesn't have any opposition... But when there's another players on the contact, He was blocked most of the time for deploy his high jumping ability.
Perhaps even "Ball Winning" influes on this....

Btw there's many stats which are related (for example to keep the ball: Balance, Dribbiling, Physical Contact, Ball control)

To run straight with the ball, normal run R1 + a direction (Speed, Expl, Dribbling, even Ball Control but not that much)

And there a variance while the player run with taping R1 pushing the ball far : Ball control have bigger influence than in a normal run when he needs to reconduct the ball after pushing the ball far: you can see that if he's got a bad Ball Control, that will slow down the player after every control because pushing the ball makes the control more difficult.

Mecanisms in a footy game are truly complex, even with not so many stats, all related in certain area. That's a standard which also influes in older PES, there was more attributes ok, but they were less related between each others (excpetion with Teamwork/Mental/Att/Def) that's why the attributes was more "palpable".
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby ballmer » 2017 Mar 13, 12:00

I'm trying to understand what's going on with Explosive Power and Body Control... I initially thought I agreed with the posts above - namely that explosive power was now acceleration, and body control was agility. But in truth I'm just really confused.

Here's the top rated players in PES 2017 for BODY CONTROL - supposedly agility:

Spoiler: show
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If we're considering body control as agility, some of these look out of place, but okay, let's go with it...

Here's the lowest BODY CONTROL ratings (for players overall rated 80+, to avoid random unknown players):

Spoiler: show
Image


Oscar? Gervinho? Walker? In the low 60s? Hmm...

Now, here's the highest rated players for EXPLOSIVE POWER - supposedly acceleration:

Spoiler: show
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This looks pretty convincing to me. It's particular encouraging to see speed-demon types here - Aubameyang, Bellerin, Walcott.

Here's the lowest EXPLOSIVE POWER ratings (again, players with overall ratings of 80+):

Spoiler: show
Image


Some lumbering centre back types are rightly here.

So, I don't know. It's difficult because Konami notoriously over and underrate players all the time. Is there enough to go on here to assume that body control is agility, and explosive power is acceleration?

One further issue... Someone above suggested that in PES 2017, dribble accuracy is better represented by incorporating dribble speed. And viewing it this way does explain some of Konami's given values. Speedy dribblers seem to be rated higher than slow, possession-retention style dribblers. And this is accounted for and consistent if we combine DA/DS values. However, I believe SPEED in 2017 - and since DS was removed in 2014 - is in fact a combination of TOP SPEED and DRIBBLE SPEED.

(Konami amalgamate abilities all the time and it's fucking annoying. Defensive prowess is some combination of responsiveness and positioning. Attacking prowess is some combination of responsiveness and attacking danger. Explosive power has been some combination of agility and acceleration in the past. A player's speed is not the same thing as their ability to maintain speed when dribbling. Likewise for all these things.)

Anyway... PES 2013 was the last game with DRIBBLE SPEED as a stat. Konami seem to take 2 games to implement new stats properly. For instance, ball winning in its first appearance was formulaic, if I remember correctly. It was some calculation involving body balance and defence. In its second appearance, it was no longer formulaic and seemed more accurately to represent a player's tackling.

So, it's my belief that Konami took until 2015 to properly account for the removal of DRIBBLE SPEED by combining this with TOP SPEED/SPEED.

Spoiler: show
Image


Neymar - Hazard - Messi - RIbery - Ronaldo - Robben - Valencia

For several years, Konami gave Messi a TOP SPEED in the low-yellows, and a DRIBBLE SPEED in the reds. In PES 2014, they ditched dribble speed. Messi's TS remained 82. In 2015, I guess, they merged the two stats, and suddenly Messi's SPEED jumps way up. His speed rating is now pretty much the average of his 2013 TOP SPEED and DRIBBLE SPEED.

In 2013, Neymar has TS 83, DS 94. Within 2 years, his DS jumps way up. In 2013, Ronaldo, has TS 87, DS 97. Within 2 years, his TS jumps way up. Likewise with several other players.

Valencia, is the inverse. In 2013, he has high TS - 92 - and low DS - 84. They average out at 88. Within 2 years, his TS? 88 in 2014, 89 in 2015. From 2013 - 2015, all these players who had a higher DS than TS, increased their TS. Valencia, with a lower DS, from 2013 - 2015 had a lower TS. In other words, speed values were adjusted in the direction of their DS. Messi had TS 82 every single year from PES 2011 through to PES 2014. PES 15/16/17 - his TS values were 92, 86, and 91.

This is stupid, of course. Because there's players who are slow, but maintain all of that speed on the ball. There are also players who are rapid, but lose that speed on the ball. This is a failure on Konami's part. By removing this distinction, they limit the realism of the game. But it does seem that this is what they're doing. I do wonder if we should consider this in rating SPEED in 2017. At any rate, I think this deserves some discussion and consideration.
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby vialli82 » 2017 Mar 14, 05:52

I agree about speed = Mix of Dribble Speed + Max. Speed.
But i also think that players should have differents "formulas" regarding to his playing style and which position he plays:
For example for a CB, who's doesn't run often with the ball, the "Speed + Dribble Speed" shouldn"t be a good formula regarding his playing style. I think that's the way Konami wanted to take: from their playing style, behaviour and positionning, players will be rated differently with differents combinations, if you know what i mean.

"Kicking power" as an example is related to long shots, but also to long passes. For a CB who never shots on goal, it will be associated with lofted passes + cards in their formula as an example. Ball control can be associated with many things too, Ball reception, passes or shoots without control etc.
I personnally think that what they want to do about "simplifying" attributes by reducing their number but adding many "special moves" much more than before, make all of it more complicated in fact... Because everything seems connected, even if the effectiveness will be different from one tactic/position to another.

They should double the attributes to rate, make more simple standards, and i'm personnally not against a come back to a 1-20 scale.
Making stats like in FM, easy to rate, but with more physical/technical attributes and diffrents mental attributes/more related to a classic football game than a managing game.
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby ballmer » 2017 Mar 14, 12:18

Teamwork, acceleration, short pass speed, long pass speed, response, aggression, mentality, consistency, shot technique...

All removed by Konami. There are players defined by their standout values for each of these, yet Konami remove them. Imagine Xavi without his teamwork, Kaka without his acceleration, Gerrard with his short pass speed, Alonso without his long pass speed, Hernandez without his response, Inzaghi without his aggression, Gattusso without his mentality... You get the point. That's the compromised reality Konami give us.

Anyway, yeah, this is a bit of an indulgent moan about Konami. We should really be discussing how to understand what Konami have given us, and how to most accurately represent reality within the confines of the stats system they use.

I think attacking prowess, defensive prowess, body control, explosive power, speed all warrant some degree of discussion to understand.
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby vialli82 » 2017 Mar 15, 23:27

Acceleration is now "Explosive Power" (which is not really agility if you see IG, there is also new card to replace offensive agressivity like "Track Back", there is particular roles like "Goal Poacher" "Dummy Runner" which influe not in a stats way but in the behavior
Now Shot technique are gone but there's differents cards like "First time Shot" or "Accrobatic Finishing", there's different type of passes with "Low Lofted pass" or "Pintpoint passing". Even "Acrobatic Clear" for defender.

In fact there's many possiblity to represent accuratly a player, but we all prefer to have more numbers and less special moves in some area like shooting.
Not a binary scale with cards which gonna decide if the player is good (1) or basic (0) in certain area.
They tried to make all things more easy to rate, differently, aswell as the current engine manage many things by itsleve that the old engine couldn't accomplish, everything was a bit "too much" related on stats and stats only, not real physics in fact...

Konami could add some new attributes and parameters to the current engine without problem, but the fact is that there's "no need" for some olders stats now for the game to work properly. When i say "no need", i talk about programming only, not player representation don't misunderstand me:
For example before the old engine couldn't do maths by itselve to create the "Dribbling Speed" of the player, so everything was separated by obligation, if you know what i mean. The physical engine was pratically the stats and stats only.

Now the engine have his own "limits" and calculation, they re-created a physical world, and attributes are combinated to the physical reality of that world.
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby Ocrin » 2017 Mar 16, 00:21

I did testing with a high-speed player (Bale), with explosive power at 40 and 99 and it's definitely acceleration indeed.

I see what Konami tried to do here, and while it's not all bad, their main problem is that their explainations are shady as fuck. Players don't have a clue how it works because nothing about that stats/physics system is properly explained by them. The new engine has some good things, even though I'd prefer numbers I agree with you on the physicality of the game, which is a nice thing.
However, it limits us when we try to replicate specific types of players. For example, there are players who are great dribblers, who aren't that fast on the ball. We can't replicate that properly.

I now wonder how agility is calculated. i have yet to test body control (the description is way, way too far from the description of agility), but if it's not BC, I wouldn't be surprised if that's some kind of formula involving height, weight and explosive power. From what I've seen so far I'm pretty sure height and weight are involved. But still, it may just be an impression and deserves deeper testing.

Quick edit: I did further testing with Body control and while there's a slight change in agility (at least, it seems there is), I do not think it is agility as whole. The difference between 40 & 99 BC in terms of agility is way too little. That confirms what the game says and what I thought: BC is indeed actual balance, and how "elusive" is a player regarding to tackles. A player with high BC is more likely to evade tackles and stay on his feet after physical confrontations.
Agility is certainly calculated with a formula involving EP and BC, but so far it seems like it doesn't exist as a stat.
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby Ocrin » 2017 Mar 31, 21:44

Any opinions from the mods & admins about this topic?
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby Epsi » 2017 Apr 03, 11:19

very interesting analysis Ocrin, I do think the same, Explosive Power is now acceleration, but still has an impact on agility.
Body Control is a brand new stat though, and it works like FIFA's "Balance" stat. I don't know if it has some impact on the agility, I hope so.
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby Sanji » 2017 Apr 04, 08:24

Zereth666 wrote:i have tried everything i could but couldn't find the right formula to convert "body balance" into "Body control or physical contact" .. someone please post the right formula because many of us need to convert the old stats into new, including classic players ..


I don't think there is a formula, you have to look at a player set here and how he plays in real life. I have tested extensively pes 2017 and can tell you my thoughts on the new stats. Be indulgent, this is my first post. (hello all btw)

Physical Contact : when in fight with opponent for the ball (running side by side towards ball) physical contact is THE most important stat with speed.
For a example for a big CB with low speed, a high physical contact will help him slow down every x step the opponent. (pique gets to the the deep ball first while fighting for it against gameiro)
Also it's the most important thing to win aerial battles, it'll help retaining the position or forcing the good position by pushing the opponent.
You will have less collision slow down (it will take more to make you loose your balance) when close to other players, including while dribbling, you'll be able to keep going your way with more ease. So in that way i guess it works kinda like balance used too. It's the body strength imo. To rate it you have to see how good the player is at using his strength to prevent opposition to get the ball (rather than technique that would be Body Control).
Usually, taller, bigger guys will be better, but small guys can have a good or decent one too. You can't rate them by height or weight, because guys like falcao won't get moved easily while being small.

The position on the pitch is also USUALLY a factor (lots of counter examples) : a defensive player is usually better at it (or uses it more frequently). For example a small DMF with high jumping ability needs a decent value to win aerial battles, or his jump will be stopped. Small playmakers with low TS should also get a decent value to be able to shield the ball correctly or resist without being dispossessed (but their main quality must be Body Control, because they use their technique more). verratti and iniesta are examples of this for me.
Someone like Gameiro could also get high or middle 60 imo, most goal pochers rely on their speed the most yes, but gameiro is quite good against defenders when running for a deep ball side by side.
Someone like O. Dembélé should get one of the lowest considering how little contact it takes to make him fall or lose the ball. It would make you play him in order to avoid contacts. which is what he does.

You have to test values to find the right one for each players, and due to the high level of interaction between stats you have to test it as a whole (TS and PC being one of the many examples)

Body Control :
Ocrin wrote:BC is indeed actual balance, and how "elusive" is a player regarding to tackles. A player with high BC is more likely to evade tackles and stay on his feet after physical confrontations.


I think you're right, the fastest definition is this, how elusive a player is when on the ball regarding to tackles, he will avoid more easily, jump over the sliding tackle with more ease, etc. And it'll also take the player less time to regain balance after being tackled, how steady they are you could say. It's truely a good stat for verratti if you ever seen him regain balance or getting up really quickly after being put down.

It has one last influence and it's one of the biggest. While dribbling, it creates animations while close to other players that help you maintaing possession. It's hard to describe, but i'm pretty sure it's related to how good a player is at dribbling, especially in small spaces but personnaly i don't see agility in there. If you look at konami's stats, good dribblers all have good body control, a better one if they are small (messi at 96) and a bit worse if they are tall (CR7 at 80)

If agility is solely the abilty to make turns or change direction with more ease, then it's definetly explosive power (ball control and dribble accuracy matter but to a lesser extent).

Explosive power includes acceleration. If i had to make a formula for EP, i'd go with (Agi x2 + Acc) /3 Because explosive power really makes a player more agile, Agility has to have more weight.

To sum up how Konami thinks, it's dribbling +/- 5~10 depending on how big they are for every top attacker known by konami and good at dribbling. If they are not good at dribbling, they used it for the second effect, recover from tackle or avoid tackles. They also used it to compensate other stats and quite eratically sometimes, but they always do that.

They gave decent values to goalkeepers too to help them recover more quickly (Ruffier is 80 !!) and some CB with the same thing in mind.

ballmer wrote:Teamwork, acceleration, short pass speed, long pass speed, response, aggression, mentality, consistency, shot technique...


They didn't disappeared, but now they are included in more general stats, which is bad, i agree.

For example, teamwork his linked to Def Prowess, but got lost for attacking situation imo, it would be Att Prowess, but att prowess is way more Aggression so you can't give high att prowess to high teamwork players if they have low aggression. There is a way to replicate teamwork with att prowess though, give good att prowess to xavi and set team instructions for highest or very high team support (and or set tiki taka as special instruction)

Acceleration is included in Explosive Power but takes into account agility too

Short pass speed and long pass speed are still here but they go together with Shot Power (one of the worst thing)

I still include Aggression and response to att prowess, response and teamwork to def prowess and mentality for ball winning (not sure to be right on this one) and i get good results.

Shot technique is now a combination of ball control, shot accuracy when they are no defenders preventing you from shooting, and when they are, Physical Contact matters, and i think body control does too but i haven't really tested it.

Consistency yeah, it's not there. It's not something that can be changed, but if you play a lot you will notice there is some kind of consitency in place, stat by stat, high pass means high consitency in passes rather than always does perfect passes. Even in a very good position you can miss strike with lewandoski for example. It'll just happen less, because he has a higher stat.

EDIT : For players with high mentality, i give them the fighting spirit card it has pretty much the same effect.
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby Ocrin » 2017 Apr 04, 14:19

Great post.

I agree with pretty much everything, especially what you said about body control and dribbling. It's hard to put words on it but I made tests with Di Maria (rated at low 60s, then at mid 80s), and his movement definitely felt different. It was way easier to use his speed, break through the midfield with dribbling runs (I play him as a CMF btw, he is op as fuck there with PSD stats).
I reckon it's because high body control reduces the physical influence opponents can have on you by pushing/tackling you. A player with high body control is elusive enough to evade that kind of influence and fully use his body as he wants.

I've heard friends playing FIFA telling me that they feel fast, low-balance player have troubles using their speed against opponents and feel "slower" even though they're definitely not. That's exactly what I felt with Di Maria (and Lucas, which I made the same tests with).

However, despite your analysis, I'm still skeptical about the influence explosive power has on agility. It has an influence on it, but I'm pretty sure it has way more influence on acceleration than it has on agility.
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby Sanji » 2017 Apr 04, 17:42

Yes you're right, low BC makes the player less fluid at dribbling and therefore i see why they felt slower.

For the relation between EP and Agi, i advise you try Bale with his acc stat in place of EP, and then his agi stat. Go to training and do circles with the ball. You will notice that with low EP you will have more trouble changing drastically your direction, so you'll have to make bigger circles. It's agility isn't it ?

It might be personal but i felt like it replicated better the way he plays with 76 EP. He needed more space to start a run, changed directions a bit less, and thanks to his TS he will be granted with a high DS too (they are linked, as someone stated above) which his plenty enough to reproduce him IG imo, he's devestating when he gets to his top speed and runs forward like a monster truck. Try him at 80 too which is where he'd be with the formula i stated, i think it's alright too.

I don't think we can tell which has more influence, acc or agi, it's more a question about what's needed. It's agility in regards to where you'll be able to dribble next (the direction) and acc when starting to run towards the direction you chose.
It's really both so maybe a 50 Acc and 50 Agi would do.
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby Jack K. » 2017 Apr 07, 19:02

ive just create one player in pes2006 and really love his stat. i want to know how do i want to assure the stat in pes2006 are exactly same in pes2016 when im change it manually in edit player?? especially res, agg, in 2006 and ball winn.. any accurate scale for guideline.. help me..
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby Jack K. » 2017 Apr 08, 09:18

why nobody answer me???
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby Oriello » 2017 Apr 08, 11:25

Jack K. wrote:ive just create one player in pes2006 and really love his stat. i want to know how do i want to assure the stat in pes2006 are exactly same in pes2016 when im change it manually in edit player?? especially res, agg, in 2006 and ball winn.. any accurate scale for guideline.. help me..


Why not compare two sets of players in the database on this site from both editions of the game and see what is different, that should be a good guideline.

http://pesstatsdatabase.com/PSD/Player_ ... 03&Club=22 vs. http://pesstatsdatabase.com/PSD/Player2 ... 03&Club=22 (look at a bunch of different high profile players and see what remains consistent)

Some stats like Shot Technique are no longer used, Aggression is more so dictated in the formation menu I think, and Response is part of Attacking Prowess/Defensive Prowess according to this thread viewtopic.php?f=11&t=35306.


I've never done this myself, as I still play the old gen games, so I don't know how to optimize stats for PES2016, but it should hold true that if all the stats in the game follow the same standards of rating that they will be balanced against themselves in game.
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby Jack K. » 2017 Apr 27, 17:03

thanks Oriello
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby Orm81 » 2017 May 28, 10:12

Hello to all, would it be possible to update the classics to the different versions of pes?
I do not know if I have explained well ... I give an example

Http://pesstatsdatabase.com/PSD/Player2 ... 02&Club=25
Http://pesstatsdatabase.com/PSD/PlayerC ... d=63&Era=1
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby Ahmed Mostafa » 2017 Jun 01, 08:10

what is the differnce berween
Attacking Prowess 2017 >> Attack
Defence Prowess & Ball Winning 2017 >> Defence
And Where is response ??
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Re: 2017 Player Format

Postby Ocrin » 2017 Jun 01, 16:46

PES 2017 doesn't have response as a stat.

Actually it's not exactly clear what these stats do (thanks Konami !), we rate them based on our experience and testing, but so far, the consensus is more or less this:

Attacking prowess = Attack + response (only in offensive situations), supposedly includes aggression as well.
Defensive prowess = Defensive positioning/marking ability, and response in defensive situations.
Ball winning = Tackling, ability to dispossess the opponent without fooling

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