50s - 60s standards

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Korinov
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50s - 60s standards

Postby Korinov » 2012 Aug 06, 11:42

We've already started discussing this in several players' threads but I think we need to reach some global consensus. It's no secret most players from the 50s and 60s are brutally overrated here, sporting inflated stats and many values given for the sake of it. I also believe it's a problem derived from the fact that many users in the past created sets without really watching footage from the player and relying on some football articles and myths. Finally, but not of least importance, many sets are still in old standards.

I think we should follow the guidelines we more or lesh stablished in Di Stefano's thread: rating players from what we really see in the videos. We know football was different back then, pace and style of play were slower, defending was much less 'aggresive' than today and based mostly on zonal defending (if I'm not mistaken man-marking was in fact an innovation of the 60s). The fitness of the average player of the 50s was also laughable if compared with the average player of today, that's why true athletes like Gento, Di Stéfano or Eusebio were able to shine so much over the guys around them. Passing speed was usually pretty low and 'soft', with almost unexistant through passes. Etc, etc.

So it's clear that we need to revamp pretty much all sets from that era. I've already done Hidegkuti, and while it's possible he may need further tweaks, I can tell he feels real ingame, and can still be very effective and dangerous even playing against players in modern-day standards. What we cannot have is sets like Kubala's, which makes him pretty much an all-round unstoppable player. Or people like Eusébio or Puskas with SP 97... it's ridiculous. If you see videos of them you can tell they could kick the ball pretty hard, but it just can't be put in the same league of Adriano Leite, Roberto Carlos or CR7. Balls were different, pitches were different, boots were different, players were different. To be honest, I see Eusébio in a similar level to someone like Forlán, with mid-orange SP, while Puskás can live perfectly with a low orange.

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Re: 50s - 60s standards

Postby Vickingo » 2012 Aug 06, 14:02

Great analysis and post Korinov, totally agree. I remember talk about it with Rob and it's totally true. If you don't mind I'll try to revamp some of Argentinian legends -mostly created by julgui- who are vastly overrated. I'll try to get more footage from what I've seen and then post suggestions. Pretty much agree with all, specially with SPS, it's kinda annoying watch old matches with so slow pace at least for "modern style" guys like us despite respect those legends. We can analyse a new kind of ladder to these eras, being a yellow number in SPS as a real awesome value, for killers and for average white's and 60's/50's...not sure though and I'm making a generalization as each player is different.

Another point must be -imho- stamina. There were a lot of really static players compared with today's ones. Most of Classic sets have +83 in stamina and comparing with modern is totally wrong. There are players who need really 60's there. Another point is mentality. I know most of made sets are from really important players and leaders but there are others who aren't and still have yellows there I guess due to their 'legend' status.
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Re: 50s - 60s standards

Postby Yazid » 2012 Aug 06, 20:00

The question is whether you want the players rated against that era or the whole database. Example, Eusebio for his era absolutely deserves 97 SP but against the 97's of today, he doesn't have quite that level.
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Re: 50s - 60s standards

Postby Korinov » 2012 Aug 06, 21:05

Yazid wrote:The question is whether you want the players rated against that era or the whole database. Example, Eusebio for his era absolutely deserves 97 SP but against the 97's of today, he doesn't have quite that level.


That's the kind of mentality we should try to erase from the classic section ;) We should rate all players using the same standards, and if football has evolved the stats we give to players from different eras should show that evolution. I've watched several compilations of Eusebio and as I've said earlier, I see nothing higher than a mid orange SP in him. Which should probably be top of the ladder for his time, of course. It could be argued that if Eusebio had the same boots and kicked the same ball players have and kick today, he would probably smash it harder. But he didn't, and so the stats should reflect that.

It's like the pass speed issue... you watch matches from the 50s and 60s, and most players can be perfectly rated between 70 and mid greens for both SPS and LPS. You don't need more to depict their passing ingame. That's why we've given Di Stéfano 72 SPS.
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Re: 50s - 60s standards

Postby Brezza » 2012 Aug 08, 17:53

I'm definitely on board with this, although to be clear its not going to be a case of 'OMG lower all 50/60's players stats, how can they be compared with the master race of modern footballers" Its just trying to make them adhere to the realistic pace of the game back the, on top with the new standards off course, most technical stats should remain the same.
Just like in Hidegkuti's case you still have a fine technical player who could of played in either era, but with the correct physical standards of that era.

Some things are still debatable off course. Ive seen alot of footage of Eusebio and he's easily still a red value for shot power even when comparing him to modern players. I do rate Forlan higher in terms of shot power as well if your comparing the two though.

Korinov wrote: We know football was different back then, pace and style of play were slower, defending was much less 'aggresive' than today and based mostly on zonal defending (if I'm not mistaken man-marking was in fact an innovation of the 60s).


Id say it was more revolutionized, especially with Italy's Catenaccio tactics where halfbacks became man-marking centrebacks, and the centrehalf/stopper became the sweeper. Some fullbacks did man-mark opposition wingers.
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Re: 50s - 60s standards

Postby Yazid » 2012 Aug 08, 18:32

We should definitely start focusing more on the classic section, I have been trying to increase activity, but tbh, when I post suggestions, they are normally ignored so I think in general, revolutionising sets is the way forward for everything pre 1970s.

And also, some players are incredibly overpowered, V. Mazzola, Coluna, Kubala and J. M. Moreno are prime examples.
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Re: 50s - 60s standards

Postby Adrien » 2012 Aug 08, 18:55

Yeah I think it's an important thing to do it and very needed. I would like to put more player of this era in my OF but I don't yet as they aren't with those standard. So I agree too on that idea. But like said Brezza, some value doesn't need to be change like the SP of Eusebio. It have no link with the era. He will have the same SP if he was a modern player.

Another point is like explain Korinov the speed stats, the game was very slow, passing were slower than now for a lot of player. So I'm with you for idea like this.

I find the idea of Konami very nice for this era, it's appear that they reduce stats of BB and Sta for the player of this era, it create a very specific type of player much more realistic of what player was. Now, all club work a lot of physical skills, on the 50' for example, the passing and shooting abilities where much more important and physicall skills were also under modern player. I don't think that all stats should be decrease, shooting and passing stats are quite similar whatever the era, I would say that they are even better on the 50'-60' on passing and shooting than now player are. The most important decrease should be BB and Sta, and apply ours new standard on other stats like Ment, TW. So on that way, Hidegukti (updated by Korinov) and Didi (updated by Brezza) are good example of what way should go the standard of those player from the 30'-60'.

List of value on BB and Sta by Konami from this era:

Puskas: BB: 80 ; Sta: 80
Garrincha: BB: 65 ; Sta:68
G. Best: BB: 64 ; Sta: 68
Dennis Law: BB: 77 ; Sta: 75
Rivera: BB: 64 ; Sta: 70
Moore: BB: 75 ; Sta: 76
Charlton: BB: 74 ; Sta: 85
Eusebio: BB: 84 ; Sta: 86
Greaves: BB: 70 ; Sta: 82
Fontaine: BB: 73 ; Sta: 72
Di Stéfano: BB: 75 ; Sta: 90
Stiles: BB: 71 ; Sta: 95
Kocsis: BB: 78 ; Sta: 71
Facchetti: BB: 91 ; Sta: 94
...
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Re: 50s - 60s standards

Postby Yazid » 2012 Aug 08, 20:09

Simply put, its the physical attributes in particular which are blown out of proportion in the classic section.
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Re: 50s - 60s standards

Postby Akiak » 2012 Aug 08, 23:11

Korinov wrote:That's the kind of mentality we should try to erase from the classic section ;) We should rate all players using the same standards, and if football has evolved the stats we give to players from different eras should show that evolution. I've watched several compilations of Eusebio and as I've said earlier, I see nothing higher than a mid orange SP in him. Which should probably be top of the ladder for his time, of course. It could be argued that if Eusebio had the same boots and kicked the same ball players have and kick today, he would probably smash it harder. But he didn't, and so the stats should reflect that.

While I agree with what's being said in this thread, I do think we should be considering the differences also in things like the heaviness of the ball or the quality of their shoes. If we can all agree that back then it was harder to kick the ball with strength compared to today, then we should be considering it when we're looking at videos, and Eusebio's 97 would be well deserved.

I'm only talking about SP here, because I can't think of any other stats where this would apply.
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Re: 50s - 60s standards

Postby Korinov » 2012 Aug 08, 23:39

@ anonyme

Be careful about Konami's ratings. Some of these players may have been updated in recent versions (2011, 2012) so their stats (while not perfect) can be trusted... others are not. I can tell you some classic sets from Konami are complete bullshit, usually because they were made long ago (in PES 4 or 5) and haven't been updated since. Bebeto's set, in example, has some stats well rated but as a whole is a mess.

Akiak wrote:While I agree with what's being said in this thread, I do think we should be considering the differences also in things like the heaviness of the ball or the quality of their shoes. If we can all agree that back then it was harder to kick the ball with strength compared to today, then we should be considering it when we're looking at videos, and Eusebio's 97 would be well deserved.

I'm only talking about SP here, because I can't think of any other stats where this would apply.


If we take the heaviness (and hardness) of the ball into consideration to calibrate SP, then we should also do to calibrate passing speed, technique, header, DA, etc. I think we should just rate what we see in the videos.
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Re: 50s - 60s standards

Postby Adrien » 2012 Aug 09, 14:23

@Korinov

yeah very true, Maradonna and Pelé were really overrated on older version (PES 6). And Gullit are still unbilievable in their database lol. I just keep Konami set as we haven't fix new standard for old classic yet here. But if you plan to do what you said I will replace Konami set by PSD set :)

I like the idea of Konami to make player from the 30'-60' (in PES 2012). So it can be a good idea to have the same logic here on PSD to replicate how the game was slower than modern football.
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Re: 50s - 60s standards

Postby Yazid » 2012 Aug 09, 14:44

It will take time and effort to do this, but I'm certainly on board with helping revolutionise the classic section. I guess it depends a lot on how much time brezza has too as he seems to be the most knowledgeable about the classics.

I plan on creating some players in my alternate stats section but I would rather work with people to create new sets or improve the current ones we have. I suppose the most important thing is to get the very famous players up to date as they will be the most used and generally are in a lot of the classic teams on this site.
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Re: 50s - 60s standards

Postby Akiak » 2012 Aug 10, 00:02

@Korinov, honestly I don't think any of those stats you mentioned could be hindered by a harder or heavier ball. I really doubt it was harder to dribble if the ball was heavier. IMO at least for SP, we can be a bit more generous (if this heavier ball thing is actually true).

But yeah, let's just get this going, there are a lot of players to work on.
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Re: 50s - 60s standards

Postby rycarell » 2012 Aug 10, 17:56

The statistics of the classic players should be realized comparing them with those of the same epoch not with the current ones for which obviously there is a great difference
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Re: 50s - 60s standards

Postby RM19 » 2013 Dec 03, 23:20

I am not 100% sure. If you say that they were in their era at 97, then why shouldn't they be in the modern era? Because they don't look like that? Maybe Eusebio could really hit it that hard with a modern easy-flying ball. I am no professional but I can shoot really hard and tested it three times at various times. Once I was with normal sneakers at a big party ("Fanmeile" in Hamburg, 2010, 500k people) and they had this measuring-thingy and I hit it 116km/h. When I was at a tournament with my U12 I did it bare feet and had 121km/h. In normal shoes at another time when we were measuring it with our football club I had 135km/h. That's not bad I guess, what value in your opinion would that give me? And still, when I see those heavy old balls I don't believe I'm anywhere near Eusebio or Coluna.

And if you simulate those players in-game, then you'd want to have the feeling like you really play with them, don't you? You won't give Di Stefano STA 68 because in modern times he'd be dead after 40mins (especially with his playing style), but we have it higher so he feels like how he was. Although I know it's harder with things like shooting where it didn't look more than it would now (Stamina), but less. When I watch those players and they let the ball circulate or shoot it looks slower, so I have the urge to make them like that. But still it's not true. So it probably goes slightly against "feeling" but still goes pro realistic value (not everytime, mind, of course your core point is correct).

I think it's important to have an sophisticated discussion about that. For instance I'd put balance slightly(!) lower as they had some easier advantages back then than now. Similar with acceleration. But yet I'd slightly increase some passing speeds or especially swerve of other players. Though I'd probably have to look at those players in my mind and their sets again to really defend changes, still, that how I basically feel about that discussion.
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Re: 50s - 60s standards

Postby Yazid » 2013 Dec 04, 18:12

I'll be honest mate, this discussion and the likelihood of the classic section being revolutionised is slim to none so I'd suggest you just try and create your own sets for players or settle for what their is right now...

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